Absolutely ranger is as good as zen archer. Remember your friends:
-> Boon companion
-> Instant enemy
-> Gravity bow
-> Other spells and wands!
Instant Enemy is a long way off at second level which is why the Guide archetype of ranger is good - it does damage about on a par with ZAM when it pulls out the stops, without needing the spell. You can grit your teeth and wait, or ask whether you can change some of your character's build, or yes you could try to focus on something else. That is tricky to do after you've started though. Personally I'd ask about changing the build or retiring the character for a different one first.
A fighter multiclass for feats helps in the short term but weakens you in the long term, if the campaign is likely to go far.
You could try something different like multiclassing into cleric or inquisitor or druid to get spells earlier and better. Ranger/druid/nature warden sort of works by focusing on the animal companion instead. Ranger/empyreal sorcerer/arcane archer might also work for you, at least in the long run.
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Considering that it is PFS, you're not likely to make it to particularly high levels and if you've played at level 2, you cannot retrain your character. However, there are some things you can do:
2 PP or 750 gp can get you a wand of Gravity Bow or a wand of Cure Light Wounds. As a ranger, you can use either wand without any UMD check, allowing you to increase your damage for the first one and to provide utility to the party with the second. You might even consider a wand of Entangle so you can lock down melee foes while you fill them with arrows. Your Zen Archer will be thanking you then.
If you stack/stacked stealth and perception, you can use those skills to scout ahead for your party, then sneak back and cast gravity bow before combat. If you have a buff mage of some kind in the party, they will thank you for the extra prep rounds as well. Of course, your ZAM can also do that, but has less need to.
When you reach level 4, you can get an animal companion. There are a few strong choices here. A cat can deal a lot of damage very quickly. A wolf can provide melee utility by knocking enemies prone, although you should be warned that prone foes are harder to shoot with arrows. Finally, a horse can really increase your battlefield mobility, although it's not as good in PFS which tends to feature urban and underground settings heavily.
Also at lv4, you can start casting off scrolls of Speak With Animals, a very potent utility spell for gathering information.
If you encounter constructs (which you probably will at higher levels), you'll want Adamantine arrows to get through their DR. If you have just a few of them, a scroll of Abundant Ammunition (25gp) will allow you to replace each 60gp arrow you fire during the combat.
All in all, the Zen Archer's strengths are more obvious than the Ranger's and require less work and less itemization. The Zen Archer is also fairly weak lv1-2 and gets really strong lv3 (if they favor Wis over Dex). On the other hand, the Ranger is decent lv1-3 and gets really strong lv4. I wouldn't multiclass out of Ranger because spells and animal companion are really good.
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Rannan: you seem to have this massive fixation on hurting things; why is that? Are the games you play that focussed on combat that you have to eke out the last nth of damage? (I've never played PFS)
Zen archer's are effective but make no mistake, they shouldn't be doing wholesale tons more damage than you.
They cannot utilize rapid shot or many shot with their flurry of bows.
For instance, at level 7 the monk has 5/5/0 for flurry. A 7th level ranger archer should be using both rapid shot and many shot and gets 4 arrows (two attached to one roll). Ranger gets gravity bow, monk gets unarmed damage to attack. You get FE, and once you get instant enemy your damage can go off the charts. The zen archer is likely more consistent, but is also ki hungry if he is constantly using the uanrmed strike for damage (of course they then also take qinggong monk archetype as well).
At higher levels with FE active (whether through instant enemy or not, and assuming you add all increases to one FE) you will likely out damage the ZA, but it takes a little work for you to do.
Personally, I consider ZA and archery focused ranger to be pretty close in terms of capable damage output, but the versatility of spells and spellcasting plus the animal companion make me feel as though I'm not losing out to the ZA, even if he has slightly higher DPR against your run of the mill enemy (because I will be using IE against any important targets).
Don't be too down on switch hitting. You only need two feats (Power Attack and Quickdraw) for it to be effective, and a 14 Str is all you need, since most of your damage will come from Power Attack.
It is doubtful that you'll ever out damage a Zen Archer, since they are massively specialized, and the archetype is just this side of being broken. Depending on how optimized he is through, he won't have very many skills (Int being big dump stat for a Zen), so you should have a chance to shine in non combat encounters if you didn't dump Int also.
An animal companion (with boon companion) can help a lot with your damage output, acts as a flanking buddy, and can run interference on foes trying to get into melee with you. If you are running archery, I'd probably say go with a big cat . Wolves are great for melee Rangers, since they are tripping machines, but for arching Rangers, tripped foes are harder to hit. Horses and other mounts are normally good, but it takes 4 feats to really turn into a mobile turret with mounted skirmisher and mounted archery, and you are looking feat starved as it is.
Forget the ZAM! Archer Ranger is a fine damage dealer. Why is it that you belive the ZAM to so superior?
Why do you believe that a zen archer can outdamage an archer ranger?
When you take into account the rapid shot and many shot feats (which the zen archer can't use) you have the same number of attacks that a zen archer has*.
As far as DPR is concerned:
The zen archer can spend a ki point to make an additional attack but he can't do that every turn.
Both of them make full attacks at full BAB-2.
Both of them can take improved precise shot at level 6 instead of 11**.
The zen archer might have one point or two higher in attacking because he chose to focus on WIS because he either left DEX at 10 or dumped it***.
The zen archer might**** have one or two more attacks over an archer ranger at levels 1-6.
Both of them use the same sources for reliable damage (deadly aim, STR, enchancements on the bow).
**that is the big weakness of the archer fighter, he can't take improved precise shot earlier than level 11.
***keep in mind that for this to happen the zen archer sucks (big time) at 1st and 2nd level, even his AC suffers (and not only at the first couple levels)
****the "might" part is there becuase the number of attacks of a ranger at any given level depends on his build, so in some of the levels 1-6 they might have the same number of attacks, or the zen archer will have 1 more attack or 2 more attacks.
All of the above do not take into account the animal companion of the ranger (which slightly boosts his DPR) nor the ranger's favored enemy/instant enemy (which significantly boosts his DPR).
Also there some other lesser diffirances between the two:
The zen archer will have a better will save.
The ranger will have better hit points and maybe better AC.
The ranger will have better initiative either all the time (if the zen archer decided to focus on WIS instead of DEX) or situationally (if the zen archer focused on DEX) due to favored terrain.
The ranger has more skill points with a better skill list.
The ranger can use his animal companion as a platform (if he wishes) and that gives him a mobility that the zen arhcer lacks.
The ranger has actual full BAB and not quashi full BAB like the monk (which means better CMB and CMD).
Also the ranger can use his spells and higher amount of skill points in order to have a few more tricks up his sleeve even if the monk takes the Qinggong archetype.
To sum up, i think that both of them are mostly equal at levels 1-10 and then the ranger is ahead of the zen archer.
*until the zen archer reaches level 17.
PS. They are both dedicated archers, which means that if they are built correctly then they are both VERY powerful characters and i don't that the small difference in their power is worth mentioning.
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I have stacked stealth and perception, but so far the opportunity hasn't really come up where I can scout ahead that much. I'll keep trying and aiming for that though. Then I can cast Gravity Bow on ahead of time. I'll also have to look into buying it, but I don't think I'll be able to until we come across one in a scenario or module.
I believe you said you were 1 session away from level 3. If you earned full prestige points each session, you should have 10 fame, allowing you to make purchases of up to 1500 gp from your faction without needing the item on a chronicle sheet.
I don't know if you can do that in PFS but you can always buy a wand with gravity bow at CL 10 (that costs 7500gp).
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Not PFS but i have been watching a Ranger 7/ ZAM 2 in my current game and he went from a compotent character in and out of battle to a frightening one in a fight once his wolf went large. He moves in, the wolf bites and tries a trip and he unloads a full attack at point blank. As i understand it, he is going to go full ZAM now but the dip (if you can call the majority of his levels a dip) has really paid off for him.
Prone gives +4 AC against ranged attacks. How does the wolf trip help a ranged attacker?
I don't know if you can do that in PFS but you can always buy a wand with gravity bow at CL 10 (that costs 7500gp).
Not in PFS
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Zen archer's are effective but make no mistake, they shouldn't be doing wholesale tons more damage than you.
They cannot utilize rapid shot or many shot with their flurry of bows.
...
At higher levels with FE active (whether through instant enemy or not, and assuming you add all increases to one FE) you will likely out damage the ZA, but it takes a little work for you to do.
Personally, I consider ZA and archery focused ranger to be pretty close in terms of capable damage output, but the versatility of spells and spellcasting plus the animal companion make me feel as though I'm not losing out to the ZA, even if he has slightly higher DPR against your run of the mill enemy (because I will be using IE against any important targets).
I completely agree.
Until high levels, the only real advantage a ZAM has over an archery Ranger is Weapon Specialization.
ZAM is also behind the Ranger in BAB, has no (or very limited) spellcasting, and has fewer skills. Animal Companion really boosts the Ranger beyond ZAM for a long time as well.
What is your Favored Enemy Rannan?
Until you can get access to scrolls of Instant Enemy, the spell Hunter's Howl can help a lot.
How does the zen archer gets weapon specialization?
Bear in mind what the ranger isn't giving up before you decide. An archer ranger's got more skill points (and a more flexible, useful skill list), to say nothing of making use of a wider array of magic items (light & medium armor, bucklers, certain scrolls/wands). Pick your favored enemies and terrains wisely and you'll get both combat and non-combat bonuses coming your way regularly. The Zen Archer probably can get an edge in damage, but there's more to party utility than massive damage.
True that. Being able to scout extremely well in your favored terrain, tracking exceptionally well, being able to always effectively use a wand of CLW in the eveny that your healer is ever incapacitated. Spells! The spell list isn't amazing, but it's got some useful stuff in there. Energy resistance. Tree Stride is a poor man's teleport. Instant Enemy.
There's a lot of solid stuff there, and the Zen Archer doesn't get anything like it really. They can pick up the qinggong archetype and pickup a few SLA, but ultimately they're going to going through their ki at an alarming rate, and ki leech can only mitiate it to an extent.
How does the zen archer gets weapon specialization?
At level 6 automatically.
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Wow I have more advantages over a ZA then I thought. A lot more. Now I definitely have to take Boon Companion (before I wasn't sure if it was needed, but it sounds like it can be a huge help in combat). I picked Undead as my first favored enemy and haven't had to choose favored terrain yet. I was figuring either forest, mountain, or underground for dungeons. My next favored enemy will be Humanoid (human).
I thought for sure the ZA was going to be better. There seems to be countless threads on how they are a machine, but not many threads or guides explaining how a ranger archer can be amazing other than Lastoths guide, and I can't always be riding a horse so I figured I wouldn't be as optimized as that.
I think he was using his Flurry attacks when we were playing and that is why it seemed like he was out damaging me so much. I didn't have rapid shot at the time so he was hitting more often and therefore doing more damage. But now I see I have a lot of other advantages that make up for the minimal difference in damage. I'm feeling much better about this. I try not to min/max, but I like to be as effective as possible. I wouldn't want to purposely choose something that is less than optimal simply for flavor.
You may be encountering one of the effects of these boards (and others) in that a lot of discussion gets focused around optimization and min-max strategy and not enough (IMO) gets focused on how to have fun and get the most enjoyment out of a particular class.
ZAM is very clean, straightforward, organized, and powerful. There's not a lot that a player has to do to make it work well. As a consequence, I think that might make it a little dull on its own.Ranger has a ton of options and ways to build/play the character. It needs a lot of careful thinking to truly get the absolute maximum out of the class, but is solid and forgiving no matter what you decide to do with it.
ZAM is hard to optimize because it's already optimized. IMO, that's also why it's so popular; anyone can create one with very little effort and be powerful from the get-go.
I am happy that you are 'coming around' to seeing the strength of the Ranger. In our home campaign, my archer Ranger just hit 7th level. I love playing this class. It has tons of flexibility and plenty of power. It's very clear what his role in the party is and I never feel like I can't contribute in some way.
Another Ranger benefit that not everyone knows about:
Rangers (and Paladins) can use Spell Trigger items at level 1. They don't have to wait until they are able to prepare spells (level 4). You can really help yourself and the party out with Cure wands and other minor buffs at low levels. That is a very valuable ability for a primarily melee character.
I'd take that over Perfect Strike any day.
How does the zen archer gets weapon specialization?At level 6 automatically.
Ok i didn't remember that zen archers get weapon focus and weapon spec on top of their bonus feats.
Ok now with that i will have to revise my earlier opinion that zen archers will most likely be a little ahead of the archer rangers at levels <10.@OP
The real difference about the archer ranger and the zen archer's combat effectiveness is that one might screw up an archer's ranger build where it will be A LOT more difficult to screw up a zen archer build.
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For Society play or any game capped at 12th level the ZAM is probably a bit easier to optimize than the Ranger.
A Ranger has to dedicate 100% of his feats & bonus feats to Archery in order to keep up with what the ZAM gets for free. Which means no Improved Initiative, Toughness, Boon Companion, or Combat Reflexes (possibly, depending on build).
The ZAM gets all of the Archery feats built in so he only needs to use a feat slot on Deadly Aim to be a fully dedicated Archery master.
People are also undervaluing Perfect Strike. It doesn't do much for you at level 1 or 2, but from 3rd on you can use it just about every encounter per scenario and by level 10 (when you get an extra 2d20 to roll) you can use it pretty much every full attack. Also, by about level 8 if you are WIS focused you will pretty much never run out of Ki Points - so Qinggong is a totally valid option.
At higher levels Instant Enemy and your Animal Companion will actually pull the Ranger ahead in DPR (reportedly - I haven't done the math myself at higher levels, but I don't doubt it at all).
In PFS I actually think Switch Hitting is an easier road to travel for the Ranger. Dedicating yourself to Archery just requires too much feat investment to keep pace with the ZAM. The Switch hitter will shine in his own way and still be pretty darn good with the bow.
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Reading the thread.. I don't see any mechanical reason for the zen archer to ever be more than slightly better.
The only damage advantage a zen archer ever has is wesponspec... that is it. Given one player claimed simone was ranger 7/zen archer 2 and it seemed to boost damage my only assumption is they are combining things with flurry he shouldn't because 2 levels of zen archer basically gives him nothing.
One thing to remember if you take the cat ac it gets 3 attacks and it fully benefits from your fe.
For pfs this means with get human slot of the time your pet is getting 3 attacks around at +4 to hit/dam from the fe. At 6 hell have multi attack.
Really the only benefit of zen archer is a mono stat character there is certainly nonway one should ever out skill a ranger.
How is a zen archer a mono stat character?
Even if elects to really suck at the first two level and either ignores or dumps his DEX in order to pump his WIS, he just has traded his need for DEX for WIS. So the ranger ends up need DEX, STR and a bit of WIS and the ZAM ends up needing WIS and STR, i think that this is a small difference, not bigger than a simple +1 to his attack roll.
Yes i know that the monk also gets more ki points from his WIS which can be used for getting an extra attack but this is a trick that he can't use every time he full attacks, does he put him a bit over the archer ranger? yes but not by large.
Zen Archer wants Wis>Str>Con=Dex>Int>Cha
Ranger wants Dex>Str>Con=Wis>Int>Cha
You could argue about which third stat is most important for each, but realistically both need two relative high scores, and would like 2 more moderate scores afterwards with varying degrees of benefit from the second grouping.
At no point is either SAD, though the Zen Archer gets a lot more bang for the buck from a high wis than the ranger gets from a high dex, in my opinion anyways. So it feels like it's a more SAD class than the ranger does.
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@OP
The real difference about the archer ranger and the zen archer's combat effectiveness is that one might screw up an archer's ranger build where it will be A LOT more difficult to screw up a zen archer build.
Definitely.
Even if a player gave a ZAM Skill Focus: Knowledge (whatever) for every single non-bonus feat, it would still be a very strong archer.
Well unless the ranger takes Combat Reflexes. Then he gets a little more. I'm still trying to figure out how to put that into the build along with Boon Companion and be an archer. I may have to switch to a switch hitter and deal with the 14 str. Not ideal but not bad either.
You don't get much mileage out of combat reflexes unless you have Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot. Which, aren't easy to work into the build early either. Archery is feat intensive, and the Zen Archer does get it all for free. For Rangers, there is a big benefit in being human because that bonus feat can add a whole lot earlier to the build. Providing options at earlier levels or at times when there is less feat competition.
well these are the two guides I was going to go by, which are very similar minus Boon Companion and Combat Reflexes. I think I'm going to go with Boon Companion and just stay back a little further from the main melee. Is this an alright idea or is there a better feat setup than both of these?
One and two . Not much of a different besides Boon Companion and Combat Reflexes, and a little bit of the order.
Depending on your character and your proximity to melee, Combat Reflexes, Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot may not be that big of a bonus. And they're really a package deal altogether. Without Combat Reflexes Snap Shot isn't very worthwhile, and without Improved Snap Shot Combat Reflex isn't worthwhile for an archer. So, if you usually stay pretty far away from everyone during combat, and wouldn't regularly be in the range of ISS anyways, you could probably get by ignoring it and instead pickup boon companion. It definitely helps to free up your feat progression a bit, which as you are obseving is a bit starved. However, upping your effective companion level is a big deal, and goes a longway to helping them contribute a lot more in combat. WIthout it, I find them to be very fragile and lacking in ability to hit compared to the enemies I'm fighting (unless it's a favored enemy). Boon Companion really helps boost the animal companion to the right power level for your level.
Dedicating your character to archery is truly feat intensive and really the ZAM has pretty much all of it built in and/or preselected.
For example a human's archer ranger feat line would look like that:
1st: PBS
1st: Precise Shot
2nd: Rapid Shot
3rd: Deadly Aim
5th: -- empty slot --
6th: improved precise shot
7th: manyshot
Sure you can move the order around a bit but the fact remains that almost all of your feat slots up to level 7 are taken.
(keep in mind that a non human wouldn't even have an empty slot)
After that you can relax, sure there are more archery feats if you want but you need those at the bare minimum to compete with a ZAM.
Where a human ZAM on the other hand would look like that:
1st: -- empty slot --
1st: -- empty slot --
1st: Precise shot
2nd: Weapon focus
2nd: -- empty monk bonus feat slot --
3rd: deadly aim
3rd: point blank master
5th: -- empty slot --
6th: improved precise shot
6th: weapon specialization
7th: -- empty slot --
(keep in mind that the ZAM needs to hit level 8 in order to get the same number of attacks as the above archer ranger without using ki points)
See how different it is?
First of all the ZAM doesn't have to be a human, secondly he gets to completely ignore PBS as a dedicated archer and he has a lot of empty feat slots to take other things.
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The Zen Archer can indeed be a ranged damage machine. He does this at the cost for being good for little else.The Ranger brings much more to the table than just a bow. He brings important skills, magical spell access, and wand utility that does no require a UMD roll to activate. If he has an animal companion he brings more actions. Or he can have a static buff to his party with Hunter's bond.
Please.
The Zen Archer can bring A LOT of things to the table; especially out of combat.I agree that while in combat the Zen Archer is pretty much a single focus dealer of death, but since when is that a bad thing?
The Ranger can provide more versatility by buffing comrades or what have you - and at higher levels the disparity between the Monk and Rangers standard action attacks really tilts in the Ranger's favour.
But you cannot discount the out of combat utility of the ZAM unless you go for a straight optimization build...
Forget the ZAM! Archer Ranger is a fine damage dealer. Why is it that you belive the ZAM to so superior?Probably from playing his ranger alongside one.
They are level 2 the ZAM shouldent have any thing there that make he ranger feel left behind.
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They are level 2 the ZAM shouldent have any thing there that make he ranger feel left behind.Forget the ZAM! Archer Ranger is a fine damage dealer. Why is it that you belive the ZAM to so superior?Probably from playing his ranger alongside one.
And yet he does. Perhaps we should explore what ELSE might be causing this?