Daylight and Darkness spells


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

I just have a quick question. From a design perspective, why is the Darkness spell 2nd level and the Daylight spell 3rd level? Where is the logic in this? Shouldn’t they be the same level?

Sovereign Court

The trick with understanding how dark and light interact is to change your perspective on the default state of lighting conditions in the world. The default isn't light, it's darkness. Darkness isn't just the absence of light, but rather light is required for there not to be darkness. The difference is subtle but essential.

Therefore (pay attention to upper case names of spells and lower case names of conditions in the following):

  • Darkness is a higher level spell then Light (or Dancing Lights) so it not only dispels, but overrides it, allowing the Darkness spell effect to occur.
  • Daylight is a higher level spell then Darkness so so it not only dispels, but overrides it, allowing the Daylight spell effect to occur.
  • Deeper Darkness is the same level as Daylight so that they directly contradict and dispel each other and return the world to it's default state (darkness unless other light sources are present)

Clear as mud?

Scarab Sages

Light is a cantrip

Darkness is a 2nd level spell
Continual Flame is a 2nd level spell.

Daylight is a 3rd lvl spell.
Deeper Darkness is a 3rd level spell.

Light increases lighting by one degree.

Darkness decreases lighting by one degree.
Continual Flame increases lighting by one degree and is permanent.

Daylight increases lighting by one step, with a 60ft radius.
Deeper Darkness decreases lighting by two steps, with a 60ft radius.


Yeah Goblin has it right.

I'd note though that simply casting a Darkness spell in the area of a Light spell does not dispel the Light spell just by doing that, it simply overrides/suppresses it. You would need to actually use the Darkness spell as a dispelling spell targeted against the Light spell, and in that case both spells would be instantly negated and have no further effect.

And the same applies to any other spell that "counters or dispels" other spells. Said spell must actually be used as a counterspell or a targeted dispel in order to achieve that effect.

Silver Crusade

Laughing gobbling, Magic dealer and Father Dale, thank you all for your thoughtful replies.

Laughing Goblin, Thank you for your clear explaination. I understand that the assumption is that the default is darkness. It makes sense from a perspective of Physics.

However, D&D/ Pathfinder is built on Dualities. Law and Chaos, Good and Evil, Positive energy and negative energy so on and so forth. So it makes sense that there would also be a duality of Light and Dark.

Thank you Magic Dealer for laying out the spells and their levels.

Father Dale thank you for explaining the mechanics of the targeted dispel.

I think for my home games, the simplest solution will be to change the spell levels so they are equal to each other and they counter each other.

Heck I sill have the “use rope “ skill on the skill lists.

Sovereign Court

If you move Daylight down to counter Darkness, wouldn't that leave Deeper Darkness as the single "trump all" lighting effect spell?

Silver Crusade

Perhaps, but simple solution would be to make a greater day light spell to counter deeper darkness.

Sovereign Court

ElyasRavenwood wrote:
Perhaps, but simple solution would be to make a greater day light spell to counter deeper darkness.

Or since Daylight already counters Deeper Darkness, make a 2nd level light spell (Dawn's Light, Dusk Light, etc.). Continual Flame kinda already fills that niche, but I agree it's kinda a cludge.

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