Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Several years back I stumbled on a novel implementation of nonlethal damage rules on a popular Neverwinter Nights 2 server. As you’d guess, that meant not every single game interaction necessarily resulted in someone’s death—what a concept.
Gone being the “do or die” mandate, it opened a variety of new quest types (subdual, arrest, abduction, extortion), new combat strategies, unique character builds, and play styles that actually allowed a PC to honor their alignment. PvP was more thrilling, and usually ended mercifully, if not downright amiably. There was also logic to prevent repeat griefing against a recently disabled player, since they technically hadn’t died so they hadn’t been magically whisked away, out of reach of their attacker.
As I recall, some weapons could only deliver NL damage, like saps, batons, and fists (if untrained in Unarmed Combat). For the rest, a NL damage “mode button” could be clicked during combat to prevent opponent death. Some NPCs even refrained from delivering a coup de grâce, like good and neutral guards.
In terms of reputation, bounty hunting, etc. a petty thief would be able to stay under the radar much longer than an openly murderous bastard via setting the appropriate flag at combat’s end.
Given the expected investment in time just getting from point A to B in the world, were Pathfinder Online to implement NL damage, a bandit encounter (PC or NPC) could be significantly less infuriating, were the ambushed party allowed to simply stabilize a few minutes after the robbery.
Goblin Squad Member
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We have beaten this topic up a few times (pun intended) most often using the phrase "subdual damage". It didn't seem to get much love from GW, as it can be tough to implement properly, and interact properly with the other elements of the flag and reputation system, bit I am for it if it is possible to implement. Dying sucks, getting knocked out slightly less so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not so much the 'dying', since you get unlimited resurrections, but losing your stuff sucks. I think getting bumped to a respawn point will probably just be an annoyance. A knockout which can leave you open to being looted only changes the relatively minor annoyance bit, not the part people will more often care about. If what they really want to do is rob someone, then there's already a plan for extortion called "stand & deliver".
I think Andius has pitched a mechanic or two by which one could arrest someone as a sort of inverse S&D, so instead of it causing a criminal flag it would be targeted on someone with such a flag. Even then, I'm not sure what the point would be unless there were prisons, and if there were prisons, then being alive but caged would be worse than dying & respawning. I don't see a purpose in allowing someone to surrender if there's no advantage in going quietly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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and if there were prisons, then being alive but caged would be worse than dying.
Right, NO PRISONS...unless there was the possibility of a creative (enjoyable) escape, or bribed release, very shortly after incarceration.
So, if the thug or killer were captured by NPC guards, I'd imagine the flow would be a forced port back to the nearest settlement, where swift justice could be delivered. That might entail exile (port to some random/dangerous corner of the map), item loss, XP loss, the forced transfer of stolen goods back to their original PC owner(s) (or their gold piece equivalent, if already fenced). Retribution in a particularly nasty settlement could even result in the captured criminal's head (death + respawn).
Having a non-deadly combat option would definitely enable Pathfinder to stand out from the cookie-cutter kill-fests that are MMOs today.
Ultimately there needs to be some meaningful consequence beyond a silly time sink; not for behaving badly--but behaving badly and getting caught.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having a non-deadly combat option would definitely enable Pathfinder to stand out from the cookie-cutter kill-fests that are MMOs today.
Ultimately there needs to be some meaningful consequence beyond a silly time sink; not for behaving badly--but behaving badly and getting caught.
The issue becomes: what punishment can you inflict which is not more severe than death (otherwise people will only hit their enemies with nonlethal) but which doesn't end up being a silly time sink?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The issue becomes: what punishment can you inflict which is not more severe than death (otherwise people will only hit their enemies with nonlethal) but which doesn't end up being a silly time sink?
Robbing people to take their stuff vs. killing people to take their stuff would become a matter of personal preference...a mechanic to allow players to role-play their alignment, plus carry out dubious missions without fear of shifting it much. Also, with a non-deadly, the robber might loot less but raise far fewer eyebrows, than say, a mass murderer.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So the idea is minor combat penalties in exchange for being able to rob people without alignment shifts?
Don’t know about Pink, but I wasn’t suggesting any combat penalties…
One player could have their NL damage mode turned on, and the other could have it turned off. Players wouldn’t necessarily even know who (if anyone) was fighting to the death during combat. The amount of damage done would be exactly the same, only for the non-lethal combatant, his combat would end when his opponent hit 0 hit points (disabled), instead of the usual <= -1 (dying or dead). For the NL opponent, all bleeds, poisons, magical DoTs, etc. would immediately end at 0 hit points to prevent opponent death. And of course, all XP is awarded at 0 hit points so good characters aren’t short-changed for not killing everything in sight.
Further, in a NL combat conclusion the defeated PC isn’t dead, so there’d be no lost time respawning back to some potentially distant bind point. They’d remain down on the ground, lootable for a few seconds. A minute or two later they’d stand (at 1 hit point), but be un-attackable by PCs in the area for a period (unless the losing PC was stupid enough to try to re-engage their attacker, and their attacker was stupid enough to wait around).
As far as alignment shifts, yes I think the Lawful Good Paladin shouldn’t be arbitrarily ganking innocents, or even slaughtering every Neutral foe that crossed his path. And the typical Chaotic Neutral bandit isn’t the same as the Chaotic Evil psychopathic killer, nor should the game treat the two equally.
If some lone dude 10 years ago could code a Neverwinter hak that more faithfully represented such an interesting aspect of the pen & paper rules, IMHO there’s no reason a paid team of Developers couldn’t deliver the same.
I posted the topic because I think we, collectively, don’t represent the average, brain-dead MMO player. We want something more challenging, something approaching the creativity of pen & paper. If we weren’t, there are any number of pointless F2P grind-fests out there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, as you say you don't think the alignment shifts for this action wouldn't be the same as killing someone, what would the alignment shifts be?
As far as I see it this mechanic as you described it would be used almost exclusively by aggressors, because the major differences between killing and knocking out are:
1. The knock-out attacker suffers less penalties in the long term.
2. Killing causes the person to teleport back to respawn, the knock-out does not.
Thus you would only kill if you wanted the person to respawn instead of remaining in place. If you are a defender of an area you need to send the attackers back to respawn, so you would kill them. If you are an attacker it doesn't really matter if you send them to respawn, because the defender's respawns will be very close by, so you might as well just knock them out to take less penalties. (this of course could be changed based on how exactly respawn mechanics work)
Also the "get back up in an invulnerable state" part could be a major issue. If the invulnerable state is too short then you can be griefed by someone constantly knocking you down over and over. If it is too long you can abuse the invulnerable timer by, for example, knocking your buddy over and then allowing him to run straight through an enemy formation/blockade/whatever during warfare. Just some food for thought.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Great find, Dorgan.
Admittedly disappointing to read that old thread straight from the horse’s mouth.
Some level of “suspension of disbelief” is a requirement to enjoy any form of sci-fi/fantasy entertainment. But as we've come to expect, great fictional heroes (and villains) rarely die outright. And when they do, they certainly don’t “respawn”, at some other point in the book or movie.
Don’t think of it as a “Non-lethal fireball”. It was just the last fireball which took its target to 0 hit points, because it was cast with such finesse and control as to intentionally spare the target.
These Pathfinder core rulebook rules we know are not impossible to code nor mitigate exploit. It appears leaving out NL damage was a personal preference during game design, which unfortunately is at odds with some of us.
Likely nothing said in these forums will change those opinions or design. Would caution though that the “sandbox” alone was never a particularly interesting children’s diversion. Pure sand, with no toys, is just a gritty mess. ;)