Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair, it wasn't the "Welcome to EQ2, here's how to walk and swing a sword" island. It was one of the low level combat zones directly connected to one of the two cities in the game at that time. (Specifically, it was the cave connected to Qeynos, with lots of gnolls and a giant mole on the second or third level.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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On that Note - Lisa Stevens doubled down on low reputation characters, doing what low reputation characters do. The initial consequence of participating in non consensual pvp is the reputation dump. If you continue to that thing and become an issue for the less pvp enthused players they will refund your money and ban you from the game.
Whoah. I really hope I am not reading this correctly. Is persistent low-reputation play a bannable offense, or are you referring specifically to griefing here? I have no problems with the latter, but the former would drastically change my conception of the game.
I'm not trying to spark another big 'what is griefing' discussion here, I just want to clarify the intended message of the quoted segment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting killed constantly for setting foot out of town is lame. Being fairly safe while you clear cut someone else's hex, because killing you will tank their reputation, is also lame. There's got to be a middle path, and I understand if it's hard to map that path during Alpha.
I agree, which is why I hope they revert to earlier ideas about the whole concept... but I doubt that will happen.
On that Note - Lisa Stevens doubled down on low reputation characters, doing what low reputation characters do. The initial consequence of participating in non consensual pvp is the reputation dump. If you continue to that thing and become an issue for the less pvp enthused players they will refund your money and ban you from the game.Whoah. I really hope I am not reading this correctly. Is persistent low-reputation play a bannable offense, or are you referring specifically to griefing here? I have no problems with the latter, but the former would drastically change my conception of the game.
I'm not trying to spark another big 'what is griefing' discussion here, I just want to clarify the intended message of the quoted segment.
It would be good to have more information.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On that Note - Lisa Stevens doubled down on low reputation characters, doing what low reputation characters do. The initial consequence of participating in non consensual pvp is the reputation dump. If you continue to that thing and become an issue for the less pvp enthused players they will refund your money and ban you from the game.Whoah. I really hope I am not reading this correctly. Is persistent low-reputation play a bannable offense, or are you referring specifically to griefing here? I have no problems with the latter, but the former would drastically change my conception of the game.
I'm not trying to spark another big 'what is griefing' discussion here, I just want to clarify the intended message of the quoted segment.
I just paraphrased what was said as best as I remembered it. I have no idea if it was meant like I phrased it or if it is specifically targeting griefing.
I suspect the former given the context of everything said before and after her statement. I do believe she was referring to the far extreme cases of Low Rep/CE behavior though.
Maybe a dev will drop in and clarify further.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its all good, you were focused on the information and that is the important part! LMAO.I was also exhausted. On a good day it takes 5hrs from where I am at to Indy. I also got about an hours sleep before the trip.
Sorry folks!
No need to apologize. What turned the trip into 8 hours this time? Construction?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What turned the trip into 8 hours this time? Construction?Its all good, you were focused on the information and that is the important part! LMAO.I was also exhausted. On a good day it takes 5hrs from where I am at to Indy. I also got about an hours sleep before the trip.
Sorry folks!
Yep. The return trip had night time construction we did not account for.
The day trip there was over five hours, but not much more. The most time consuming part was finding the convention center and parking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Feel free to message me if I said something potentially controversial. It wasn't my intent.
No, it was nothing you said directly. I was just trying to resist the urge to point out that some of us saw this coming from a mile away - PFO is going to be different that most Open World PvP games. I'll leave it at that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Feel free to message me if I said something potentially controversial. It wasn't my intent.No, it was nothing you said directly. I was just trying to resist the urge to point out that some of us saw this coming from a mile away - PFO is going to be different that most Open World PvP games. I'll leave it at that.
Oh that isn't antagonizing, it seems to be pretty spot on. It's actually why I posted about it in the first place (perhaps against my better judgement)
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Goblin Squad Member
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On that Note - Lisa Stevens doubled down on low reputation characters, doing what low reputation characters do. The initial consequence of participating in non consensual pvp is the reputation dump. If you continue to that thing and become an issue for the less pvp enthused players they will refund your money and ban you from the game.Whoah. I really hope I am not reading this correctly. Is persistent low-reputation play a bannable offense, or are you referring specifically to griefing here? I have no problems with the latter, but the former would drastically change my conception of the game.
I'm not trying to spark another big 'what is griefing' discussion here, I just want to clarify the intended message of the quoted segment.
I just paraphrased what was said as best as I remembered it. I have no idea if it was meant like I phrased it or if it is specifically targeting griefing.
I suspect the former given the context of everything said before and after her statement. I do believe she was referring to the far extreme cases of Low Rep/CE behavior though.
Maybe a dev will drop in and clarify further.
Well, maybe I have some mental adjustment to do then. I was definitely under the impression that a low-reputation life was going to be possible - hard, maybe severely disadvantaged, but possible. If that isn't the case, I'm not going to be too torn up. But I do agree, clarification on this point would be nice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh that isn't antagonizing, it seems to be pretty spot on. It's actually why I posted about it in the first place (perhaps against my better judgement)Feel free to message me if I said something potentially controversial. It wasn't my intent.No, it was nothing you said directly. I was just trying to resist the urge to point out that some of us saw this coming from a mile away - PFO is going to be different that most Open World PvP games. I'll leave it at that.
Xeen got it, actually... repeatedly and powerfully shock the system and all :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lord of Elder Days
Yes but that I know some one was specifically exploiting the guards to bring attention to the fact that they needed adjustment. I was watching the stream of some one kiting guards through town while plucking at characters with a bow, not killing to show that it could be done way too easily. He wasn't trying to grief really. Part of testing is to break the system and that was what he was doing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For those who were there, how full was the room? (Half to 5/8's capacity at a quick glance. Around half or a little under were alpha access and goblin squad members.
I don't have hard numbers, but if I were to recall a guess I would say over twenty in the room. Around eight to twelve goblin squad folks.
Proportions are correct (half full room, about half already invested in the game), but number is low. I would guess at least 50.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are a gatherer will these values be known to you? Will I be able to know when I start harming the land through my gathering?
Unknown what level of information you'll have on hex values.
Lee mentioned at least once that how to present information and what information to present was a topic of ongoing discussion.
This was in reference to information about other characters, but he also mentioned it in the context of setting laws for hexes, so I assume it applies to any number of numeric ratings that players would like to know.
Ryan did say that he'd prefer not to link this sort of information to a character skill, so as to avoid making a skill tax that everyone just automatically takes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose it depends on how granular "each material type" is.
I got the impression that hex ratings for materials were extremely specific. ie, a forest hex might have 8,000 for yew, but only 2,000 for pine.
That wasn't specifically stated by Lee, just my interpretation of how he was describing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another thing I forgot to add,
Ryan said that one reason Dwarves and Elves are not implemented yet, is that GW really wants to take its time and make sure the art is done correctly.
He said that they want to make the races visually distinct and the demihumans will have varied features and skin tones so they don't all look based on "Northern European" ethnicities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On that Note - Lisa Stevens doubled down on low reputation characters, doing what low reputation characters do. The initial consequence of participating in non consensual pvp is the reputation dump. If you continue to that thing and become an issue for the less pvp enthused players they will refund your money and ban you from the game.
I had a good hard laugh at this. I wonder how long it'll take me to earn my refund.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On that Note - Lisa Stevens doubled down on low reputation characters, doing what low reputation characters do. The initial consequence of participating in non consensual pvp is the reputation dump. If you continue to that thing and become an issue for the less pvp enthused players they will refund your money and ban you from the game.Whoah. I really hope I am not reading this correctly. Is persistent low-reputation play a bannable offense, or are you referring specifically to griefing here? I have no problems with the latter, but the former would drastically change my conception of the game.
I'm not trying to spark another big 'what is griefing' discussion here, I just want to clarify the intended message of the quoted segment.
I wouldn't worry too much. Both Ryan and Lisa have good business sense and will not torpedo the game through bad judgment. We have all experienced horrible griefers who get their jollies by causing misery to others by repeated killing with no other purpose. Those players should be banned and the 97% of actual gamers will appreciate their efforts at taking out the trash.
A very low rep character should be viable. I have even considered an alt character striking out solo and parking in a quiet little corner gathering power and defending my territory (a witch or warlock, a lich character, something like that) knowing I would be content for others. That should be perfectly reasonable, and the unpredictability of a player character versus computer AI would be far more challenging for a small party.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lisa's comments about banning undisireable players was completely in reference to those abusing exploits and griefing other players. The example given was a player in the alpha who was camping the new player spawn in the starter town.
@Lord of Elder Days
Yes but that I know some one was specifically exploiting the guards to bring attention to the fact that they needed adjustment. I was watching the stream of some one kiting guards through town while plucking at characters with a bow, not killing to show that it could be done way too easily. He wasn't trying to grief really. Part of testing is to break the system and that was what he was doing.
I have a hard time accepting that excuse at face value. It really rubs me the wrong way that someone thinks they need to demonstrate the exploit so ostentatiously in order to pressure the devs to fix it. It should be enough to submit the information to the devs and leave it at that. It's not like this is a security vulnerability where an unsuspecting user can suffer real-world harm if it doesn't get fixed, which is the only thing I can think of off-hand that would justify such a public display of the problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose it depends on how granular "each material type" is.I got the impression that hex ratings for materials were extremely specific. ie, a forest hex might have 8,000 for yew, but only 2,000 for pine.
That wasn't specifically stated by Lee, just my interpretation of how he was describing it.
Relevant but ambiguous:
Chemicals are extremely common, so have a much higher drop chance from nodes until a lot of them are gathered. If a bunch of people hit one of the mountain hexes and start gathering, you'll probably lower the Cinnabar ratings and increase the chance Iron Ore will drop.I'm not sure whether to interpret that as "chemicals are tracked separately from metal ores", or "cinnabar is tracked separately from iron ore".
Gaskon's report earlier in this thread that "Each hex has a rating from 1 to 10,000 for each material type" is similarly ambiguous, without knowing exactly how granular 'material type' is.
The first comment reminded me of the second.
As far as we've been able to tell in Alpha, each hex will only drop a single kind of chemical. So, my assumption is that having a distinct rating for Cinnabar is equivalent to just having a rating for Chemical.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there's subjective judgement involved (and GW have consistently said there will be), then it should be pretty easy for them to tell the difference between a villain played as a set piece challenge for other PCs and a griefer.
Yes! Human judgment is woefully underestimated :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there's subjective judgement involved (and GW have consistently said there will be), then it should be pretty easy for them to tell the difference between a villain played as a set piece challenge for other PCs and a griefer.Yes! Human judgment is woefully underestimated :)
They've frequently said that they won't have a 100% enumerated list of actions that are and aren't griefing, that they'll know it when they see it, and that they'll take action as the situation warrants. This part sounds fine to me, even if I am worried about other aspects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought she mentioned it as well directly after Dancey said "No" to the lady asking if she could avoid pvp.
Apparently she absolutely can avoid PVP, Ryan is dead wrong.
Three words for you Ryan... "Unaffiliated, Alternate Gatherers"
They can not be feuded, made war targets or attacked in non consensual PVP.
SADS will be the only way to defend your own controlled hexes from solo harvester interlopers, or the settlement will have to set its controlled hexes more to open PVP in general (NBSI).
LOL, bandits will take a new form, they will rob you of your resources at the source by depleting your resource nodes. Imagine, 20 - 30 harvesters entering your hexes and doing nothing but depleting your resource nodes. I reminds my of mining ops in Eve when we'd strip every belt bare.
I think SADs and Outpost raids will have to come online a lot sooner, and may in fact be a part of MVP.
A note on MVP... MPV is not defined by Goblin Works. Ultimately, the consumer defines what makes the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I can tell you now, were going to have to have a way to defend ourselves from these strip mining organizations.
By my calculations, if your looking at 10,000 resources in a hex, with the current output, a group of 10-15 people could go in and strip that hex within 3 hours. To make matter worse, if we have no way to defend against said group, then we are going to be forced into a group of low reputation characters specifically designed to kill gatherers that encroach upon our lands.
If you are thinking, "well we can use influence to feud them," then I would just come with 10-15 gathers like Bluddwulf mentions, all 15 of them are keyed to a specific NPC settlement, unaffiliated from settlement/company. Or, if I wanted to be a really big a**@!&*, I make 15 tiny companies, so that you could feud us, but it would cost you so much influence that its basically trolling/griefing you.
There will need to be thief flags in, or strip mining will turn into the MAIN Player versus Player generated content. I would say if you want to deter this behavior, then lock all tower hexes and later PoI hexes to be used by just those in the settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SADS will be the only way to...So much I want to say to this, but I'll leave it at "unlikely".
As I said, banditry will take a new form. The highest Rep, unaffiliated alt harvesters will be able to harvest another settlement's nodes and no one will be willing to take the rep hits to stop them.
Who will you retaliate against? You won't know what company or settlement they actually belong to. Will you turn your settlement to NBSI? That will be great, it will bring the PVP playground to your doorstep.
Lisa and Ryan's panacea is that Hellknights will control banditry, lol... how naive. Players with Lawful Evil intent, will use CE and CN characters (especially those of other players) as their pets to do their dirty work. They are not going to play Ryan's dupes and direct their energies on crushing a group that will be a willing tool for their own expansionism and conquests.
Suddenly Ryan thinks players will role play alignment, when all along he has been treating alignment as a game mechanic and a suck funnel. This is that fallacy of what makes playing evil, evil.
The naive belief that evil will direct its attentions to killing other evil characters, is what I call evil-light. It is politically correct evil and it is what killed City of Villains. Playing the truly bad guy, is harming the innocent and crushing the good intentions of society.
Lawful Evil's most direct enemy is Chaotic Good; followed by Neutral Good. Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil are likely tools. Lawful Good is likely to be an organized foe looking to crush evil expansionism, and replace it with its own expansionism.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say if you want to deter this behavior, then lock all tower hexes and later PoI hexes to be used by just those in the settlement.
While we're waiting for the legal system and the ability to flag resource raiders as criminal, this would be an excellent interim move, as well as providing substantial additional incentive to participate in the tower game.
Cheatle, you should post this on ideascale and/or the alpha crowdforging board.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I can tell you now, were going to have to have a way to defend ourselves from these strip mining organizations.
If you are thinking, "well we can use influence to feud them," then I would just come with 10-15 gathers like Bluddwulf mentions, all 15 of them are keyed to a specific NPC settlement, unaffiliated from settlement/company. Or, if I wanted to be a really big a%&~$#!, I make 15 tiny companies, so that you could feud us, but it would cost you so much influence that its basically trolling/griefing you.
There will need to be thief flags in, or strip mining will turn into the MAIN Player versus Player generated content. I would say if you want to deter this behavior, then lock all tower hexes and later PoI hexes to be used by just those in the settlement.
You will have to, as you say, set harvesting in your hex by non citizens as theft (basically, NBSI). If you're a Lawful settlement, you are going to have the damnedest time trying to keep your corruption down, and that will definitely be used as a DI weapon against a LG settlement.
But even more so frustrating, the strip mining, untouchable horde will have a couple of friends near by. Not only to retaliate if you decide to attack, and flag yourself for PVP. But more frustratingly, they can "Blue Block" your harvesters using collision detection to prevent your harvester from getting to the node, while their's gets in to start harvesting.
Heheh...Fun times ahead. In protecting the players from non consensual PVP, they will be allowing the most abhorrent PVE harvesting behaviors to take root.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lisa's comments about banning undisireable players was completely in reference to those abusing exploits and griefing other players. The example given was a player in the alpha who was camping the new player spawn in the starter town.I have a hard time accepting that excuse at face value. It really rubs me the wrong way that someone thinks they need to demonstrate the exploit so ostentatiously in order to pressure the devs to fix it. It should be enough to submit the information to the devs and leave it at that. It's not like this is a security vulnerability where an unsuspecting user can suffer real-world harm if it doesn't get fixed, which is the only thing I can think of off-hand that would justify such a public display of the problem.@Lord of Elder Days
Yes but that I know some one was specifically exploiting the guards to bring attention to the fact that they needed adjustment. I was watching the stream of some one kiting guards through town while plucking at characters with a bow, not killing to show that it could be done way too easily. He wasn't trying to grief really. Part of testing is to break the system and that was what he was doing.
@ Nihimon, I do agree with you on that some thing like could have been better handled. I am just hoping the person i was watching did carry it that far, but perhaps he did after I quit watching.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say if you want to deter this behavior, then lock all tower hexes and later PoI hexes to be used by just those in the settlement.While we're waiting for the legal system and the ability to flag resource raiders as criminal, this would be an excellent interim move, as well as providing substantial additional incentive to participate in the tower game.
Cheatle, you should post this on ideascale and/or the alpha crowdforging board.
Terrible idea, it removes the earliest legal form of PVP the game will have.
Have you run an escalation? BOOOORRIING! I'm not going to spend 2 - 3 hours of game time, running an escalation and there is a chance that some other group finds the Boss Mod and kills it and takes the reward (that only goes to one member of that group).
Three players with ranged weapons and a small measure of skill can farm Ogres all day long and gather far more loot in half the time it takes you to run an escalation.
As I have said previously, PFO will be somewhat unique in that it will have two substantial drop off points in its subs. The period after the included time following EE, and again the month of two after OE.
PVP is the only game play activity that will carry the game through the lulls of content. How many months will escalations, gathering (at no risk) and crafting be expected to keep the game alive?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will you turn your settlement to NBSI?Maybe. NBSI means you can shoot them, it doesn't mean you have to, and I don't believe it will ever mean that they can shoot you without losing Reputation.
They don't need to shoot you, they are getting what they came for at no risk and for free.
During the period with greater access to Alpha (All Kick starters), the UnNamed Company and its fellow Aragonian sponsored companies, will test what numbers are really needed to "strip mine" (I'll begin to call it "Ninja Harvesting") an entire hex.
That means, killing every mob and harvesting every node, systematically. I'm thinking 6 groups of four would be able to sweep through a regular hex in under 20 minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To stop the unaffiliated gatherers, how about limiting them to how much they can harvest in claimed hexes. If a gatherer needs bulk or a lot of materials he is likely to belong to a settlement, company or something, otherwise why does he need all that material? Belonging to one of those should get you the ability to use PvP to protect your resources. That limited can be lifted next to the starting settlements to allow gatherers to start working on their skills before heading out into the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To stop the unaffiliated gatherers, how about limiting them to how much they can harvest in claimed hexes. If a gatherer needs bulk or a lot of materials he is likely to belong to a settlement, company or something, otherwise why does he need all that material? Belonging to one of those should get you the ability to use PvP to protect your resources. That limited can be lifted next to the starting settlements to allow gatherers to start working on their skills before heading out into the world.
Scarlette, just because the character is unaffiliated, doesn't mean the player is.
Bottom line is, you as the settlement controlling the hex, either losing an amount of resources to these Ninja Harvesters or you turn your settlement into NBSI. That will open your settlement up to more corruption and more PVP.
Some of us have played in alpha now, so think about the answers to these questions:
1. Can anyone really control who is harvesting nodes in their lands?
2. How many players do you really think will be willing to take rep losses, now that they realize the extreme cost of low reputation?
3. Every harvester, even if criminal flagged, may be bait just waiting for an attack. How long do you figure before the NBSI turns a settlement's controlled lands into a PVP playground?
Ninja Harvesting is Risk and Consequence free banditry, just in a new form. Even if you limit the amount, that will have a timer on it and Ninja Harvesters can rotate out. Besides, I don't think GW has the money, time or wants to devote the effort to stopping this emergent game play that their own system creates.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I can tell you now, were going to have to have a way to defend ourselves from these strip mining organizations.
By my calculations, if your looking at 10,000 resources in a hex...
Is the 10,000 the number of resources units of that type, or is it a "factor" such as a regeneration multiplier or some other thing that is not the actual quantity. Gaskon's post called it a factor, so it could be quantity, or anything else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say if you want to deter this behavior, then lock all tower hexes and later PoI hexes to be used by just those in the settlement.While we're waiting for the legal system and the ability to flag resource raiders as criminal, this would be an excellent interim move, as well as providing substantial additional incentive to participate in the tower game.
Cheatle, you should post this on ideascale and/or the alpha crowdforging board.
Terrible idea, it removes the earliest legal form of PVP the game will have.
Have you run an escalation? BOOOORRIING! I'm not going to spend 2 - 3 hours of game time, running an escalation and there is a chance that some other group finds the Boss Mod and kills it and takes the reward (that only goes to one member of that group).
Three players with ranged weapons and a small measure of skill can farm Ogres all day long and gather far more loot in half the time it takes you to run an escalation.
As I have said previously, PFO will be somewhat unique in that it will have two substantial drop off points in its subs. The period after the included time following EE, and again the month of two after OE.
PVP is the only game play activity that will carry the game through the lulls of content. How many months will escalations, gathering (at no risk) and crafting be expected to keep the game alive?
Bluddwulf, I specifically meant for gathering nodes, not PvE. Currently everyone that participates in the escalations will get rewards, so if you come steel our kills, it has advantages and disadvantages, but not as severe as strip mining our hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is the 10,000 the number of resources units of that type, or is it a "factor" such as a regeneration multiplier or some other thing that is not the actual quantity. Gaskon's post called it a factor, so it could be quantity, or anything else.Well, I can tell you now, were going to have to have a way to defend ourselves from these strip mining organizations.
By my calculations, if your looking at 10,000 resources in a hex...
If it is indeed quantity, the idea Bluddwulf talks about in strip mining a hex, with 6 groups of 4, would probably take them 1.5-2 hours. And if at that, he has to have enough level 10 miners, scavengers, foresters, and dowswers to grab all of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 resources.
I bet what he will find, is after about an hour or so, all the nodes popping up will say "your skill isn't high enough."
If nodes don't disappear until harvested, Bluddwulf's group could turn them all to T2 nodes, and restrict any harvesting at all from the Hex until people level up. Then if you don't go in there with a consolidated forces of high end gatherers, you could end with too many of one node and no one high enough to actually gather.
It would be very interesting.