Do polymorph effects prevent ALL ongoing armor bonuses? Or just those from armor (as opposed to bracers of armor or the mage armor spell)?
My 20th-level halfling sorcerer masquerades around as a dragon for the natural armor bonuses (among other things), but I assumed I kept my bracers' armor bonus. Was I wrong? Am I actually lowering my AC by doing this?
Surely, that rule was only meant to apply to ACTUAL armor and shields.
Unless the new form is humanoid, all gear merges into the form. Constant bonuses (except AC) remain. Activation items can't be activated. Material components are not accessible while merged into the form.
Is the wording.
By Rules as written, it seems that all AC stops from gear the moment you change. We play it as magic items with an 'always-on' effect to continue working, as by text, you benefit from an offensive effects.
I was terribly surprised to find little to no discussion in other threads about this topic. I would very much like to change that.
So RAW, polymorph absolutely sucks? For 95% of characters it is going to end up being a debuff! Was there a FAQ entry or developer forum comment anywhere to make it less so?
From the "prd":
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."
I think that language is pretty plain. As for your concern, that means Bracers of Armor fail to function, but Mage Armor works fine, because, you know, it's a spell, not an item.
This is most likely why 90% of the polymorph spells give you a natural armor bonus comparable to what you'd lose from Bracers of Armor affordable to people of that approximate level.
I would argue only standard (what you would get from a breastplate or shield or from your your own hide) AC bonuses get lost. I would argue that none of the following are lost when polymorphed: deflection, enhancement to natural armor, insight, inherent, circumstance, luck, profane, or sacred. Only AC, enhancement to AC(provided by an armor item), shield, enhancement to shield(provided by an armor item), and natural armor. This of course is my opinion and is built upon the opinion that the constant bonus from magic items text overrules the loss of AC text. Which specific rule is more specific and therefore takes precedence?
The rule says:
"Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."I'm not really sure how you can interpret that to mean, "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function unless they are magical enhancements to armor and shield bonuses)."
Sorry, I don't see it. You get no item based Armor or Shield bonuses while polymorphed into one of those specific sorts of creatures. If you want to keep them, polymorph into another sort, like a Humanoid, Giant, or Outsider.
Seeing as bracers of armor essentially duplicates the effects of mage armor, I just don't see why it wouldn't continue to function.
Again, surely the developers meant ACTUAL armor and shields ceased to function.
Seeing as bracers of armor essentially duplicates the effects of mage armor, I just don't see why it wouldn't continue to function.
I've quoted it twice, but hey, why not, here's a third:
"Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."
Bracers of Armor do not function because they are an item that provides a constant bonus of a sort specifically called out as one that does not function--specifically, an Armor bonus.
Polymorphing affects items, it does not affect spells. The spell Mage Armor works. An item that creates Mage Armor does not. It is very clear and simple.
Again, surely the developers meant ACTUAL armor and shields ceased to function.
They did mean that. But they did not mean ONLY that, or they would have said ONLY that. Any item that gives an Armor or Shield bonus ceases to function. Period. End of sentence.
Seeing as bracers of armor essentially duplicates the effects of mage armor, I just don't see why it wouldn't continue to function.I've quoted it twice, but hey, why not, here's a third:
You're not answering the question he's asking. Yes, by RAW they don't work, but Ravingdork is asking why they don't work. Not "What is the rule text that says they don't?", but "Why isn't this an exception to that rule?".
I think it's a good question - why do bracers of armor stop working when you polymorph while a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor (or bracers of archery) would keep working? It's pretty clearly for balance reasons - if you're getting rid of the armor bonus from the warrior's full plate, you should also get rid of it from the mage's bracers of armor. But what justification is there for it?
You're not answering the question he's asking. Yes, by RAW they don't work, but Ravingdork is asking why they don't work. Not "What is the rule text that says they don't?", but "Why isn't this an exception to that rule?".
I think it's a good question - why do bracers of armor stop working when you polymorph while a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor (or bracers of archery) would keep working? It's pretty clearly for balance reasons - if you're getting rid of the armor bonus from the warrior's full plate, you should also get rid of it from the mage's bracers of armor. But what justification is there for it?
A Wizard did it. I don't get this--we're talking about a spell that changes your shape and subsumes magical items into your body in the process.
I'm totally all for having internal consistency in my fantasy roleplaying games, but this is a question of pure magic interacting with more different magic. There's nothing to base a decision on.
If it makes that big a difference, take the bracers off before you polymorph and then put them back on. Or stick to forms that can use them. Or just keep Mage Armor available--it lasts pretty much all day by the time polymorphing is an issue.
I don't see how polymorph spells can be balancing at all if you lose your bonus from bracers. That just means polymorphing will get you killed!
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I don't see how polymorph spells can be balancing at all if you lose your bonus from bracers. That just means polymorphing will get you killed!
I don't think it will necessarily get you killed. You should have armor comparable to a rogue type while at the same time having as much or more HP depending on your build and which polymorph. For example, a transmutation wizard who uses Form of the Dragon gets a nice big bonus to nat armor, str, and con from the spell and can put their extra enhance toward Dex. You won't be a mainline fighter; but you will be able to do some damage, cast spells, and take a hit or two.
Do polymorph effects prevent ALL ongoing armor bonuses? Or just those from armor (as opposed to bracers of armor or the mage armor spell)?
My 20th-level halfling sorcerer masquerades around as a dragon for the natural armor bonuses (among other things), but I assumed I kept my bracers' armor bonus. Was I wrong? Am I actually lowering my AC by doing this?
Surely, that rule was only meant to apply to ACTUAL armor and shields.
Yeah I don't really like the way polymorph effects currently work in pathfinder either.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that they were one of the balance issues from 3.5 that had to be adressed but... I still have to see anyone in my table want to use them as written.
I'm under the impression that they might have been nerfed down a little too hard.
The spells are not too popular in my group because sorcerers/wizards have crap HD and BAB and the spells can only be cast on "self" (or the familiar). OTOH, I've seen several (fairly powerful) druids built around wild shape, and that's a polymorph effect.Yeah I don't really like the way polymorph effects currently work in pathfinder either.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that they were one of the balance issues from 3.5 that had to be adressed but... I still have to see anyone in my table want to use them as written.
I'm under the impression that they might have been nerfed down a little too hard.
Druids get wild armor, so they are good to go. Not so for anyone else as there is no equivalent.
Allowing bracers I think would make these spells viable.
Also, saying Dragon Shape III breaks even, and using that to justify its balance is a fallacy. It's the best polymorph out there. Every other powerful polymorph spell will get you a bit of natural armor, but less so than the dragon, and a Dexterity and size penalty to boot!