(And everything I've heard is that Sc8rpion's stat blocks fix everything, but I'm worried that my group will get slaughtered by 'em. No offense, Sc8rpion...)
None taken :-)
Better to start off that way and be ready to weaken when/if needed than have the opposite and end up with a dissapointing flop?
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So one of my PCs brought up a valid point to me this evening about Mythic Power Attack
Prerequisite(s): Power Attack.
Benefit: When you use Power Attack, you gain a +3 bonus on melee damage rolls instead of +2. When your base attack bonus reaches +4 and every 4 points thereafter, the amount of bonus damage increases by +3 instead of +2.
In addition, the bonus damage from this feat is doubled on a critical hit, before it's multiplied by the weapon's critical multiplier.
You can expend one use of mythic power when you activate Power Attack to ignore the penalties on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks for 1 minute.
Anyway From what he got from it is that only the power attack dmg is doubled so lets say
(1d8+5(str and enchant)+6 (MPA)+12 (smite evil)+14)x 2 = 72
is this correct?
He is 7 Paladin/1 Guardian
*edit* I went with 4 avg dmg with the longsword.
Which is why many of us suggest house-ruling Mythic Power Attack so it only does +3 damage (per +4 to hit) without any of the other benefits. Just like Mythic Deadly Aim.
Which is why many of us suggest house-ruling Mythic Power Attack so it only does +3 damage (per +4 to hit) without any of the other benefits. Just like Mythic Deadly Aim.
Yep, you gotta get rid of the x2 pre-weapon multiplier bit, it's just too mental at high levels.
I think the 14 from smite is because he's smiting an evil outsider and you double your level against those and dragons and undead.
This is how were rolling.
Briefly for now as I have scales to practice.. The crux is on the players involved.
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Firstly we don't munchkin our characters (no slumber for a witch, no doubling damage before multiplying mythic power attack etc) as we've been playing long enough to know what is and isn't abusive - we the players made those decisions.
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Secondly, three players is enough for this AP. Action economy is so important when weighing up balance. Having 5 players is a 20% increase in actions per round, don't underestimate the difference that will make round after round. It doesn't even have to equate to extra damage, a simple extra dispel magic vs something like black tentacles will make an enormous difference to an encounter, and that's just one round. And it is one round as Wild Arcana and friends must be standard actions.
Group make up - we have no full casters (eliminates 7-9th level spells unless being used via UMD which gets expensive very fast) and no dedicated healer (Magus/WHW, Monk, Bard - duelist archer)
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Thirdly, talk to the group about everything you'd like to take and discuss how it will impact on the game. We do this as a group. It's not players vs DM ever. For the game to work you need to be honest, open and prepared for the DM to say no and not argue about it. There is a plethora of available options for every character but we all know power creep exists and if you compared newer materials with core it isn't rocket science working out what is most likely to cause problems.
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Fourthly, or DM has altered many NPC's changing out stupid/useless abilities for ones that make sense and make the monster more of a challenge. Hit points need increasing on a group by group basis, there isn't a one size fits all equation that will magically work for every group.I have piano lesson now but will expand on this if there is any interest..
Mel X
Any more to add?
Which is why many of us suggest house-ruling Mythic Power Attack so it only does +3 damage (per +4 to hit) without any of the other benefits. Just like Mythic Deadly Aim.
I would much rather give every mythic opponent the Guardian ability Shrug It Off. No free or immediate action needed. It just happens.
Here are some past modifications that I recommend for Mythic. I'd posted a link to it but it seems to have gone away.
I'd institute several modifications to Mythic. I've mentioned some of them before, but here's what I recall off the top of my head.
1. Mythic Stat boosts are only +1 to a stat. This puts it on par with stat increases gained every 4 levels, and means without magic the stats should only increase by +10 between levels and Tiers (assuming you go to Tier 10).
2. Increase the Mythic Point cost for additional standard actions to 5 Mythic Points. Please note that Hero Points are able to do this same exact thing - allow an extra move or standard action for the use of one Hero Point. Hero Points don't recharge overnight. So to make this skill more balanced, having it be a huge chunk of the character's Mythic Points makes sense.
3. Don't allow the Initiative boost for Mythic Tier 3 (and up).
4. The Archmage Mythic casting abilities (either casting any spell or recasting memorized/known spells) are no longer Swift actions but instead are Standard actions. This is a broken ability. The Swift Spell Feat increases a spell level by +4. And Hierophant doesn't allow it anyway.
5. After the players have reached the 3rd Tier, start giving every single foe the Advanced Creature template. Don't boost XPs to compensate.
6. For Mythic Boss Encounters, consider maximizing hit points and then tripling that amount. To compensate, reduce the damage of the enemy by half (though feel free to modify this on the fly). A Mythic Big Bad should not drop in one round. But just increasing hit points alone will likely result in one-sided rocket tag where the players all die because they are taking so much damage in return.
7. Nerf Mythic Power Attack. Only allow it to increase damage to +3 (much like Mythic Deadly Aim).
Small note - #7 is vital. I cannot emphasize enough how much damage players can do with the current broken state of Mythic Power Attack.
8. Double the Mythic point cost of Mythic spells.
9. This is up to you. Nerf critical hits for both sides. Have critical hits act like Vital Strike - the ONLY thing...
Probably got lost in the thread purging. Don't suppose you have a saved copy or Lazarus or something that gets past the Quote Cutoff point there after #9...?
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I'd institute several modifications to Mythic. I've mentioned some of them before, but here's what I recall off the top of my head.
1. Mythic Stat boosts are only +1 to a stat. This puts it on par with stat increases gained every 4 levels, and means without magic the stats should only increase by +10 between levels and Tiers (assuming you go to Tier 10).
2. Increase the Mythic Point cost for additional standard actions to 5 Mythic Points. Please note that Hero Points are able to do this same exact thing - allow an extra move or standard action for the use of one Hero Point. Hero Points don't recharge overnight. So to make this skill more balanced, having it be a huge chunk of the character's Mythic Points makes sense.
3. Don't allow the Initiative boost for Mythic Tier 3 (and up).
4. The Archmage Mythic casting abilities (either casting any spell or recasting memorized/known spells) are no longer Swift actions but instead are Standard actions. This is a broken ability. The Swift Spell Feat increases a spell level by +4. And Hierophant doesn't allow it anyway.
5. After the players have reached the 3rd Tier, start giving every single foe the Advanced Creature template. Don't boost XPs to compensate.
6. For Mythic Boss Encounters, consider maximizing hit points and then tripling that amount. To compensate, reduce the damage of the enemy by half (though feel free to modify this on the fly). A Mythic Big Bad should not drop in one round. But just increasing hit points alone will likely result in one-sided rocket tag where the players all die because they are taking so much damage in return.
7. Nerf Mythic Power Attack. Only allow it to increase damage to +3 (much like Mythic Deadly Aim).
Small note - #7 is vital. I cannot emphasize enough how much damage players can do with the current broken state of Mythic Power Attack.
8. Double the Mythic point cost of Mythic spells.
9. This is up to you. Nerf critical hits for both sides. Have critical hits act like Vital Strike - the ONLY thing multiplied is the damage dice. So a 10th level fighter with Mythic Improved Critical, Mythic Power Attack, and a Strength of 20 who criticals with a +2 long sword would only do 3d8 + 16 (9 (power attack) + 5 (strength) +2 (sword bonus)) (Compare this to the current state of things, where it would be 3d8 + 75 ((18 (power attack) +5 (strength) +2 (sword))x3)).
Just fixing critical hits alone should significantly lessen the rocket-tag element of the game, but you do have to be careful with overpowered spells, thus my suggest of increasing the mythic point cost of mythic spells.
Oh, and here's a #10 for you.
10. Fleet Charge is now a Move Action instead of a Swift. This means you can move and attack using Fleet Charge and then have a Standard Action afterward (thus allowing a second attack, three if Hasted).
This will partially nerf Fleet Charge - it will have no impact during lower level play, but once you start getting 2+ attacks a round, it reduces the effectiveness of the ability.
I would also suggest having the Archmage and Hierophant abilities which let them cast spells still cost spell slots. This prevents casters from gaining an additional 23 max level spells at high tier/levels.
You do realize that makes it pointless for a Sorcerer or Oracle (or similar casters) to take the Archmage abilities that let them cast only the spells they already know, right?
In fact, it would pretty much kill those two Mythic paths; you can take Mythic Spells with any Mythic path, including Guardian or Champion. So all you did was encourage a different line of power-gaming.
And yes, I know people who take those abilities because they don't know every spell in the book and/or don't want to waste time looking them up.
So you might go with 1 Mythic Point for level 1-5 spells and 2 Mythic Points for level 6-9 spells. It makes sense that higher-level spells are more difficult for even Mythic characters to cast.
Know your errata too, all of those spellcasting path abilities have been changed to a standard action and cannot be used on all spells. I would link those abilities to mythic tier so a caster can't always use them for their highest spells.
They changed the Errata again? Last I knew all they'd done was make it so the "cast any spell in the world" ability was a Standard action. And I didn't realize there were spells not allowed.
Edit: Well, yeah, and also allowed by your class and level. And the "spell must be cast as a standard action" bit is important.
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The spell in question has to be a spell that can be cast as a standard action or less. That came up more times than I thought it would.
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It's not a real Errata, at least as we think of it.
My suspicion is that Mythic is so broken that when the Errata shows up, it's going to be around 5+ pages of PDF.
Let's see. Maybe I'm daft and just missing some big items here. Maybe your just messing with me, but it looks like your balance problems arrive way before mythic was applied. Here's what I see.
1. Your disarm CMD is off the charts for a 12th level PC. I'd never be that generous at that level. (+5 weapon and +14 from stats especially)
2. It appears that the marilith was so mad at you that she decided to not act intelligently. She's a demon at the top of her food chain and she acts like she never tangled with mortals before. First, she brings a bunch of under CR mooks, when she should have better at her beck and call. She dropped multiple Blade Barriers on a monk (we are to believe she's never encountered an enemy with evasion before) when other options were available (grapple, dancing weapons, . . . ) even then, you can't stay in a Blade Barrier and not take damage as you were allowed. With the save, you are allowed to chose what side of the barrier. Did she even use any of her own 1d10 surges (8per day)? Teleport to gain some space from the miraculous disarmer? Heal? So mad that she didn't notice how easily your companions were cutting through the chumps she brought with her?
Sorry, I'm just saying mythic doesn't appear to be the first issue here.
I'm probably gonna get crucified for this, but am I the only one who really, really likes the ability to move and full attack? It's nice when you have moment abilities, so you can actually get to friggin' use them. Makes me just wish that they were in core PF--isn't that something people always ask about, yet when it shows up in mythic, people point to it as rocket taggy...I don't get it.
In any case, I guess that's a roundabout way of saying, if you were going to eliminate most of mythic from this campaign, what abilities and stuff would you keep and how would they be accessed? I wonder how this AP would work for a Gestalt game, at the very least.
Move + Full Attack is fine... except that it's so clearly a better option than other things you feel bad for *not* taking it.
Honestly, I'm mostly fine with Move + Full Attack as apart of Mythic. The big problem is when you combine that with the real problem childs, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Imp. Crit and Mythic Vital Strike.
God forbid you have all three on the same guy...
Let's see. Maybe I'm daft and just missing some big items here. Maybe your just messing with me, but it looks like your balance problems arrive way before mythic was applied. Here's what I see.
1. Your disarm CMD is off the charts for a 12th level PC. I'd never be that generous at that level. (+5 weapon and +14 from stats especially)
2. It appears that the marilith was so mad at you that she decided to not act intelligently. She's a demon at the top of her food chain and she acts like she never tangled with mortals before. First, she brings a bunch of under CR mooks, when she should have better at her beck and call. She dropped multiple Blade Barriers on a monk (we are to believe she's never encountered an enemy with evasion before) when other options were available (grapple, dancing weapons, . . . ) even then, you can't stay in a Blade Barrier and not take damage as you were allowed. With the save, you are allowed to chose what side of the barrier. Did she even use any of her own 1d10 surges (8per day)? Teleport to gain some space from the miraculous disarmer? Heal? So mad that she didn't notice how easily your companions were cutting through the chumps she brought with her?Sorry, I'm just saying mythic doesn't appear to be the first issue here.
There is a lot more going on in that fight than I wanted to get into, but I guess I will. But I have to Spoiler it because it involves Legacy of Fire spoilers.
Book 5 involves you being locked inside a mansion and being unable to leave and upgrade your stuff except for what you find...
So from levels of, I believe, 8 to 14 or so, you accumulate a stupidly huge amount of wealth.... that you can't sell to anyone because you're trapped. My GM decided that was kind of a dumb move on Paizo part, so he changed the adventure to us being locked inside part of the City of Brass and trade was still possible through vendors trapped in the area as well.
Keep in mind, that the City of Brass is, quite possibly, the single best place to trade in the entire planar realms. So we offloaded a bunch of our gear and got some good power ups.
As for teleporting and stuff, this wasn't possible. My GM told me the entire area was under a Dimensional Anchor because The Impossible Eye, a powerful artifact, was stolen from the guy who rules over the City of Brass, and he wasn't allowing for anyone to leave the area. So no one could teleport, dimension door, plane shift etc. until the Impossible Eye was returned to the Pasha.
Previous to this, my Monk had some major issued with fighting creatures that auto-damage those who use natural attacks or unarmed strikes. So the party opted to pool together to get him a +5 Sai (and we chose sai because it's a cool weapon).
Anyway, so I had a +5 Sai for when I need to use a weapon and not my fists to pummel someone.
A Sai, is also a disarming weapon, so that's an additional +2 on disarms.
Keep in mind, at level 12 many PCs have a +3 or +4 weapon as it is, so it isn't much of a stretch having a +5 weapon at this level, especially since I had avoided buying much in the way of magical items. At this point, I had a Rod of Balance, +3 Bracers (found in the AP) +4 Cloak, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet of Nat. Armor, a +2 belt of Dex (that we found in the AP) and a +4 belt of Wis (that we also found) and a magical weapon named Tempest that you get as a part of the AP that 'levels up' with me. The GM told me it functions as magical hand wraps and augmented my unarmed strikes only.
The WBL of a 12th level PC is 108,000 gp, and I had 64,000 gp in magical items not including the Sai or Tempest. With the Sai I would be at 114,000 gp (a little over WBL) and if you priced Tempest for what it's effect was, then the closest thing would be an Amulet of Mighty Fist at 36,000 gp, which puts me well over WBL at this point.
So I guess gear was a factor, though not by a super amount in my opinion.
Truthfully, that +40 CMB isn't that hard to get with other classes. At 12th level, a Fighter would have +12 BAB, up to +2 accuracy from Greater/Weapon Focus, +2 from Weapon Training (+4 if he has Gloves of Dueling) and up to another +4 from Improved/Greater Disarm and a +2 from Disarm weapon means you have a total of +22. Then you toss on Strength (we'll use +7 same as I have) and a +5 weapon like I do and you're at +33. Include the additional +5 we got from buffs and you're at +38, only +2 shy from where my Monk was at the same point. That +2 could have been made up with Gloves of Dueling, or a better ability score as my Monk started with a 17 Dex, where as a Fighter could have started with a 20 strength if he wanted to.
So I don't really think it's all that out of line for a character that has focused on being really good at disarming things, to actually be really good at disarming things.
Anyway, as for the Blade Barriers (two of them), I didn't take any damage as I made my Reflex save every round. I had a +19 static reflex and Improved Evasion at that point, plus there were buffs which added another +3 to reflex (Heroism and Haste). The DC of the Mythic Marilith's Blade Barrier is DC 24 and I had a +22 on my save. So I only miss on a natural 1.
As for how the Marilith reacted? It made sense at the time. I agree she could have played smarter, or better, but it did make sense at the time. I mean, you have, what amounts to, supposedly one of the most powerful Demons in the Abyss getting disarmed by a puny mortal. It's a great insult to her and her power. The way he played it is that she couldn't very well retreat without losing face in front of her subordinates.
I know the Marilith used Mythic Power to swift action cast her Blade Barrier, as I asked my GM how she was doing that and he said, "I gave her the ability to swift action cast a spell-like ability for 1 MP just like you guys can do with Wild Arcana". I don't know if she ever surged to hit me as he rolls behind the screen. She did try and use Heal on herself though, but once she got cornered by the rest of the party, it didn't really help.
As for her seeing her troops killed so quickly... well, she wasn't the only one surprised. We were too (including the GM). We thought we were walking into a TPK, and, instead, it became an almost trivially easy fight. The only person who was really in danger was myself as I was taking on the Mythic Marilith.
You got to remember, the party Fighter was able to, at this point, swift action move and attack, and then full attack with Mythic Power Attack and dropped one Marilith. The other Marilith was in range (he was buffed with a potion of Enlarge Person) so he dedicated the rest of his attacks to her and with some lucky crits, nearly dropped the second, which he then finished off in the next round. The Barbarian took on the 3rd Marilith and dropped her shortly after engaging her. Then they both proceeded to wade their way through the Dazed Vrocks and Succubi. Neither Barbarian nor Fighter were at threat to be dazed as they both had Resist Energy (fire) 30 from the Wizard, so they could walk through the Dazing Wall of Fire(s) (she cast two of them) that she used to lock down the demons.
The Fighter and Barbarian were so confident, they just walked through both Blade Barriers and took damage (not caring) because, at this point, they knew that between the three of us, the Mythic Chump... er Mythic Marilith was going to die quite quickly. She couldn't teleport away, and with the Fighter and I both having a speed of 90 feet around (Impossible Speed and Haste) and the Barbarian with 70 ft. a round (Haste) while she only had 40 ft. a round... there's just no running.
Does that clear anything up?
Move + Full Attack is fine... except that it's so clearly a better option than other things you feel bad for *not* taking it.Honestly, I'm mostly fine with Move + Full Attack as apart of Mythic. The big problem is when you combine that with the real problem childs, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Imp. Crit and Mythic Vital Strike.
God forbid you have all three on the same guy...
Ban them, sorted. Or at the very least super Nerf them. These particular feats come up over and over so it's not a huge leap of faith to just ban.
Other than the action economy issues with fleet and wild A which should be standard actions the biggest issues being highlighted are all based on massive damage output.
What say we ban those mythic feats and triple the hit points of monsters and keep the group size down to a maximum of 4, preferably 3. Our 3 man party isn't have anything like the problems that so many others are reporting here and in a number of other threads.
I'm sure there are other powers that could do with some work also but damage output seems like the main offender from what Ive read, which is every page of every mythic related thread.
Note, one thread recently shrunk by 2 pages, what's all that about?
Other than the action economy issues with fleet and wild A which should be standard actions the biggest issues being highlighted are all based on massive damage output.
What say we ban those mythic feats and triple the hit points of monsters and keep the group size down to a maximum of 4, preferably 3. Our 3 man party isn't have anything like the problems that so many others are reporting here and in a number of other threads.
I'm sure there are other powers that could do with some work also but damage output seems like the main offender from what Ive read, which is every page of every mythic related thread.Note, one thread recently shrunk by 2 pages, what's all that about?
Unless all of those posts were completely erased from Paizo's servers (which could have happened during that ~8 hour website error), then the threads shouldn't shrink at all. Even when deleted, a deleted post still counts towards the page count.
I recall that there was a thread that came out not too long ago with the entire first page deleted except two posts and most of the second page, I think, as well. But all of those posts still count towards post count, so when you visit those pages on the thread, you only see two posts and nothing else.
Ban them, sorted. Or at the very least super Nerf them. These particular feats come up over and over so it's not a huge leap of faith to just ban.
Move + Full Attack is fine... except that it's so clearly a better option than other things you feel bad for *not* taking it.Honestly, I'm mostly fine with Move + Full Attack as apart of Mythic. The big problem is when you combine that with the real problem childs, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Imp. Crit and Mythic Vital Strike.
God forbid you have all three on the same guy...
When it comes time for me to run Mythic I will probably be instituting several changes. Not sure exactly what those changes are as of yet. I keep meaning to make a list an nail it down, but I've been procrastinating :(
Does that clear anything up?
Yes, and my point as it relates to this thread is I don't think this is a great example of mythic being broken or OP. I'm not trying to be overly critical, but your game was off balance before mythic was applied.
Im seeing all this talk about trying to nerf the PCs with mythic tiers. I propose a new way of thinking. How about we buff the mythic opponents? Mythic PCs should roflstomp non mythic opponents. Mythic opponents are where the challenge should be.
Mythic characters should inspire fear and awe anywhere they go. And you dont do that by doing 60 pts of damage instead of 45. You do that by doing 250 instead of 50. And full attacking and full movement in one round. And shrugging off 500 hit points worth of a crit.
So less nerfing of PCs and more buffing of mythic opponents.
they are doing that mogloth:) 3 words for you: mythic dispel magic.
Does that clear anything up?Yes, and my point as it relates to this thread is I don't think this is a great example of mythic being broken or OP. I'm not trying to be overly critical, but your game was off balance before mythic was applied.
Not as much as you want to think. When it came down to it, the Fighter, Wizard, and my Monk had the most influence on that fight. The Wizard was able to spontaneously drop a second Dazing Wall of Fire, something she had only prepared one of, as we were in the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Makes sense not to bring along a lot of fire effects in such a place. Kind of a moot point though, as she used her Admixture ability to change the damage from Fire to Cold on both walls she cast.
So if the Wizard didn't have MP and Wild Arcana to drop that second Dazing Wall of Fire, the Vrocks could have done their Dance of Ruin ability to start dropping 20d6 lighting waves on everyone within 100 ft. Even worse, they had 2 complete circles, and a partial 3rd. So that would be 55d6 points of shock damage to everyone within 100 ft.
Amazing what some mooks can do. However, the Wizard was able to drop two Dazing Walls of Fire, both switched to Cold damage via her Admixture ability, and since she was doing 2d4+6 points of cold damage, she was able to overcome the Resist Cold 10 all of the demons had.
The Succubi, all 10 of them, attempted to summon some Babau demons, and I think 6 succeeded. The Babau were just chumps to us, but they are additional bodies on the field that could cause havoc with the Oracle, Wizard and Bard. After the summoning, the Succubi were going to attempt to dominate, then charm people. But they never got the chance as they all failed their DC 24 Will save to avoid being Dazed for 4 rounds.
So the Wizard was able to Daze 13 Vrock, 10 Succubi and 6 Babau. She was able to do this partially due to the fact that she could spontaneously cast a spell and add metamagic to it without using up a spell slot, also partially due to the +2 intelligence increase she got at 2nd tier (which increased her DC), and also because she was able to surge to add to her SR check, a check that also had a further +2 added to it via Wild Arcana.
The Fighter was able to move up and then full attack due to Fleet Charge. He also got substantial bonus damage due to Mythic Power Attack, which was also boosted due to the +2 to strength he got for being 2nd tier.
The Barbarian was not able to move up and attack as a full-attack, but was able to move and make two attacks due to Sudden Attack. He too has his strength enhanced and still was able to hit like a truck, just not a mac truck like the Fighter.
Me? I was able to use Fleet Charge to jump over all the enemies in my path and then land and disarm the Mythic Marilith of 1 weapon. Then full attack and disarmed another weapon. I was able to do this, partially because of the +2 to Dex and the +2 from Fleet Charge and the Fleet Charge itself. On later rounds, I was able to surge on some attacks to disarm the Marilith of even more weapons. Meanwhile, I was difficult to attack in return as I was able to boost my AC higher than it had been due to Mythic augmenting my stats.
If it had not been for Mythic, we would not have won that fight.
Please note #6 on my list of modifications to Mythic.
That said, there were stories of high-level characters doing 1,000+ damage with one critical hit. You should not be able to one-shot Cthulhu. THOR shouldn't be able to one-shot Cthulhu.
Please note #6 on my list of modifications to Mythic.
That said, there were stories of high-level characters doing 1,000+ damage with one critical hit. You should not be able to one-shot Cthulhu. THOR shouldn't be able to one-shot Cthulhu.
You talking Norse Thor or Marvel Thor? If Marvel Thor... which era? 'Cause Marvel Thor has done some seriously crazy S**T that would make me think he could one shot Cthulhu.
Norse. I'm thinking Ragnarok in which he was able to defeat the Great Serpent... but died in doing so from the serpent's venom.
In the above-mentioned one-shot, the Mythic Player would one-shot Cthulhu before Cthulhu can act and not be affected by this entity.
It brings me back to the old days of 1st edition AD&D where players were going through Deities and Demigods and having their high-level characters take on Gods, kill and loot them, and then go on up the chain.
No. Just... no.
Norse. I'm thinking Ragnarok in which he was able to defeat the Great Serpent... but died in doing so from the serpent's venom.
In the above-mentioned one-shot, the Mythic Player would one-shot Cthulhu before Cthulhu can act and not be affected by this entity.
It brings me back to the old days of 1st edition AD&D where players were going through Deities and Demigods and having their high-level characters take on Gods, kill and loot them, and then go on up the chain.
No. Just... no.
i'm glad the internet wasn't around when i was a kid, i would've been pissed hearing that as the pile of my dead characters filled the opening well of the dungeon my brother insisted on murdering us in
i actually switched to pathfinder specifically because they didnt have Beholders and Mind Flayers (he was the type that sent a Beholder against us, at 5th level!)
Then Cthulhu spends a mythic point to shrug off the crit. And takes normal damage instead. And if people are worried about actions and whatnot - he is mythic. He can spend a mythic point to negate a crit any time he wants to.
Then Cthulhu spends a mythic point to shrug off the crit. And takes normal damage instead. And if people are worried about actions and whatnot - he is mythic. He can spend a mythic point to negate a crit any time he wants to.
Except he can't, not by the rules. Which is the problem. GMs have to modify Mythic in order for Mythic to work. If they don't then Cavaliers can CHARGECHALLENGELANCE Cthulhu and kill him in a single blow.
You do realize that makes it pointless for a Sorcerer or Oracle (or similar casters) to take the Archmage abilities that let them cast only the spells they already know, right?
In fact, it would pretty much kill those two Mythic paths; you can take Mythic Spells with any Mythic path, including Guardian or Champion. So all you did was encourage a different line of power-gaming.
And yes, I know people who take those abilities because they don't know every spell in the book and/or don't want to waste time looking them up.
So you might go with 1 Mythic Point for level 1-5 spells and 2 Mythic Points for level 6-9 spells. It makes sense that higher-level spells are more difficult for even Mythic characters to cast.
When did I say that? One power lets you cast a spell which makes non-mythics have to roll twice on their save. The other lets you cast any spell (including those you don't know) at +2 caster level.
I was merely suggesting that a spell slot equal to the level of the spell should be expended when doing this rather than it only costing a mythic power. These abilities are still very good even with this additional cost.
If it had not been for Mythic, we would not have won that fight.
And the fact that your DM pulled punches with a combination of under challenging minions and not playing the mythic marilith well. That's not really the fault of mythic.
Then Cthulhu spends a mythic point to shrug off the crit. And takes normal damage instead. And if people are worried about actions and whatnot - he is mythic. He can spend a mythic point to negate a crit any time he wants to.Except he can't, not by the rules. Which is the problem. GMs have to modify Mythic in order for Mythic to work. If they don't then Cavaliers can CHARGECHALLENGELANCE Cthulhu and kill him in a single blow.
Except isnt part of this thread looking to "fix" mythic? My idea is a big step in that direction. At least this is how I will run things in my game.
Remember: you need to think outside of the box when it comes to fixing myhic. It does not make a whole lot of sense to applh non mythic thinking to mythic fights. The old rules cant apply.
You do realize that makes it pointless for a Sorcerer or Oracle (or similar casters) to take the Archmage abilities that let them cast only the spells they already know, right?
In fact, it would pretty much kill those two Mythic paths; you can take Mythic Spells with any Mythic path, including Guardian or Champion. So all you did was encourage a different line of power-gaming.
And yes, I know people who take those abilities because they don't know every spell in the book and/or don't want to waste time looking them up.
So you might go with 1 Mythic Point for level 1-5 spells and 2 Mythic Points for level 6-9 spells. It makes sense that higher-level spells are more difficult for even Mythic characters to cast.
When did I say that? One power lets you cast a spell which makes non-mythics have to roll twice on their save. The other lets you cast any spell (including those you don't know) at +2 caster level.
I was merely suggesting that a spell slot equal to the level of the spell should be expended when doing this rather than it only costing a mythic power.
You're confusing Archmage and Hierophant. Their abilities are not the same.
Here's the Archmage:
Arcane Surge (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today (even if you have already cast it); if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known. If the spell requires a saving throw, any non-mythic creatures affected by the spell roll twice and take the lower result. If you must attempt a caster level check for the spell to overcome a creature's spell resistance, you can roll your caster level check twice (adding your tier to each) and take the higher result. You can't add a metamagic feat to a spell you cast using this ability.
Here's the Hierophant:
Recalled Blessing (Su): You can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today; if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known. You can't apply metamagic feats to this spell. If the spell requires a saving throw, non-mythic creatures roll twice and take the lower result. If the spell heals damage or requires you to attempt a caster level check to cure an affliction or remove a condition, roll twice and take the higher result.
Note, neither one improves its efficiency against Mythic foes. They primarily give the spells greater impact against NON-Mythic foes. The Hierophant ability primarily boosts healing but I'm doubtful it stacks with the Healing Domain special ability (as both are divine in nature and likes don't stack).
You also basically negate the entire point of Mythic for spellcasters. Why should melee and archer combatants be able to attack outside their normal range of attack without using up standard or move actions, but spellcasters suddenly lose spells?
Seriously. Is there a point to the Archmage or Hierophant abilities (outside of the Path abilities)? Being able to cast extra spells is not the problem. The ability of arcane casters to cast these as Swift spells IS a problem but that can be eliminated... and suddenly the only real difference is that casters can cast a few extra spells.
There are many problems with Mythic. The ability to cast bonus spells from a power pool is not one of them, or at least not a major one. (And again, by requiring extra Mythic points to cast higher-level spells, you reduce the impact of the extra spells to an extent.)
Edit: Also, upon reaching the 3rd Tier, Mythic players can rest for an hour, spend one point of Mythic, and regain all spells, all limited-use class abilities, and half your hit points. Yet you feel 23 extra spells is a huge problem? Players will get around that by resting for an hour to recharge everything.
Even if you can shrug off crits he still could be down half his health so that cavalier keeps attacking and kills him later in that round. Or maybe Cthulhu's minions counter attack and one shot our hero. More hit points is the easy fix but we should be talking increasing them tenfold and not just to maximum.
The offense/defense shift in mythic is nearly too much to bridge. Should mythic PCs be able to mow down normal enemies easily like super heroes? If so then why does the AP have so many fights vs normal opponents?
You do realize that makes it pointless for a Sorcerer or Oracle (or similar casters) to take the Archmage abilities that let them cast only the spells they already know, right?
In fact, it would pretty much kill those two Mythic paths; you can take Mythic Spells with any Mythic path, including Guardian or Champion. So all you did was encourage a different line of power-gaming.
And yes, I know people who take those abilities because they don't know every spell in the book and/or don't want to waste time looking them up.
So you might go with 1 Mythic Point for level 1-5 spells and 2 Mythic Points for level 6-9 spells. It makes sense that higher-level spells are more difficult for even Mythic characters to cast.
When did I say that? One power lets you cast a spell which makes non-mythics have to roll twice on their save. The other lets you cast any spell (including those you don't know) at +2 caster level.
I was merely suggesting that a spell slot equal to the level of the spell should be expended when doing this rather than it only costing a mythic power.
You're confusing Archmage and Hierophant. Their abilities are not the same.
*snip*
Ummm, you are completely forgetting about Wild Arcana and Inspired Spell. I can't imagine a senario where a full caster wouldn't want to get one of these abilities even if I make them cost spell slots in addition to mythic power.
Also, many GMs remove the ability to rest for an hour to gain all your spells back. Adding in this additional cost works very well with getting the number of resources that mythic characters have back under control. Plus, it isn't like GMs aren't nerfing martial characters as well, so please don't take my suggestion as something I would use by itself.
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DISCLAIMER: My guys just made Tier 3, so they're not in the realms of things other people have hit yet.
My finding so far is that the *only* really really broken part of Mythic is the damage done on a critical by a melee class. People are talking about casters doing 30d10+250 with a fireball, but I haven't seen anything like that yet.
So I figure I just start equipping mythic BBEGs with the equivalent of the Hierophant's Servant of Balance:
I really like someone else's suggestion that anyone can use a mythic surge to prevent a critical. More than any other aspect, I think that would clean up mythic nicely.
Give me another couple of months and I'll probably start complaining about casters, though. :-P
Even if you can shrug off crits he still could be down half his health so that cavalier keeps attacking and kills him later in that round. Or maybe Cthulhu's minions counter attack and one shot our hero. More hit points is the easy fix but we should be talking increasing them tenfold and not just to maximum.
The offense/defense shift in mythic is nearly too much to bridge. Should mythic PCs be able to mow down normal enemies easily like super heroes? If so then why does the AP have so many fights vs normal opponents?
To be perfectly frank about mythic PCs vs non mythic opponents - Yes. I fully believe they should be able to ROFLstomp non mythic opponents.
The Riddler may be a badass, but compared to Superman he is nothing.
If a group of 4 PCs are walking around with 200 - 300 hit points a piece and can deal out, on average, about 300 hit points worth of damage per attack then the mythic opponent should be in the 1000s of hit points.
There should be a simple formula to use that dictates that if a PC of a certain mythic tier successfully lands an attack against a certain level of non mythic opponent they automatically kill that opponent. Maybe for ever mythic tier you have you can auto kill your tier times 2 HD. Something.
The damage that mythic opponents dish out should never scale as high as the PCs amount they can do. The reasoning there is the hit point differential. Opponents are built to go against a party. They need more defense to withstand the multitude of attacks.
The thing to keep in mind, though, is that the 'to hit' values of the opponents should scale. They need to be able to hit more often. But keep the damage lower so as to not one shot PCs.
And because they are mythic opponents they get the free actions of being able to shrug off a crit, negate a PCs ability to bypass SR, etc.
My finding so far is that the *only* really really broken part of Mythic is the damage done on a critical by a melee class. People are talking about casters doing 30d10+250 with a fireball, but I haven't seen anything like that yet.
I've seen it. The wizard in my party killed a group of four Thanatotic Titans with two heavily metamagiced augmented mythic fireballs + channel power. In a single round, with the first action the party had in the combat.
The GM hasn't bothered sending a non-mythic fight at us ever since.
@Mogloth I think that I agree with most of your thoughts as mythic does play more like a supers game and not fantasy. But none of those ideas echo what is in the books or AP.
I do disagree that enemies and PCs should play by different rules. Anything that a PC can do an enemy should be able to as well and the other way around as well.
My finding so far is that the *only* really really broken part of Mythic is the damage done on a critical by a melee class. People are talking about casters doing 30d10+250 with a fireball, but I haven't seen anything like that yet.
I've seen it. The wizard in my party killed a group of four Thanatotic Titans with two heavily metamagiced augmented mythic fireballs + channel power. In a single round, with the first action the party had in the combat.
The GM hasn't bothered sending a non-mythic fight at us ever since.
Was it one of these bizarre, "I'm a dual bloodline half-arcane/half-angelic sorcerer/mystic theurge with feats grabbed from six different sourcebooks" builds, or was it a fairly vanilla build?
My group uses HeroLab, so pretty much every official Paizo book is open to them, but their builds are very very vanilla. "I am an 8th-level half-elf arcane bloodline sorceress with 3 tiers of Archmage."
As you know, I'm interested because so far WotR has been a perfectly good AP for me (I'm going to commit heresy and say both RotRL and CotCT were better through Books 1-2, but WotR hasn't been bad), but I'm starting to see the cracks everyone else is screaming about and "just add hit points" simply isn't viable when your fighter hits for 200 and the remainder of the party hits for 60 combined.
So the ability to eliminate crits looks like adjustment #1. Once I've done that, I'm hoping I won't need an adjustment #2, but I'm keeping my eyes open.
My finding so far is that the *only* really really broken part of Mythic is the damage done on a critical by a melee class. People are talking about casters doing 30d10+250 with a fireball, but I haven't seen anything like that yet.
I've seen it. The wizard in my party killed a group of four Thanatotic Titans with two heavily metamagiced augmented mythic fireballs + channel power. In a single round, with the first action the party had in the combat.
The GM hasn't bothered sending a non-mythic fight at us ever since.
Was it one of these bizarre, "I'm a dual bloodline half-arcane/half-angelic sorcerer/mystic theurge with feats grabbed from six different sourcebooks" builds, or was it a fairly vanilla build?
My group uses HeroLab, so pretty much every official Paizo book is open to them, but their builds are very very vanilla. "I am an 8th-level half-elf arcane bloodline sorceress with 3 tiers of Archmage."
As you know, I'm interested because so far WotR has been a perfectly good AP for me (I'm going to commit heresy and say both RotRL and CotCT were better through Books 1-2, but WotR hasn't been bad), but I'm starting to see the cracks everyone else is screaming about and "just add hit points" simply isn't viable when your fighter hits for 200 and the remainder of the party hits for 60 combined.
So the ability to eliminate crits looks like adjustment #1. Once I've done that, I'm hoping I won't need an adjustment #2, but I'm keeping my eyes open.
From what I know, he's just a standard wizard. No fancy multiclassing. The one thing that may have pushed it over the edge is the feat Spell Perfection(fireball).