I will say, I liked it when Henry admitted to Joe that he didnt' understand any of it either. It must really suck being the only NON-scientist in the room...
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It was pretty grating when Caitlin didn't know what an event horizon / singularity was at the end of Season 1 as a vehicle to explain it for the audience. It doesn't matter if you're a bio major, you'll know that by the end of an undergraduate science program (if you didn't already learn it from high school). Other than that I haven't minded it as much.
*agrees with Mister Seifter*
Most people that took undergrad science classes have SOME basic idea of what an event horizon or a singularity is.
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Some pre-med undergrads are very focused on being doctors and don't give a $#!+ about non-required classes, like some physical sciences, like physics.
The "explain science-ish stuff to people" thing that annoyed me the most was when they were trying to explain Earth-2 to Joe, and he was like, "What? Another earth just like ours filled with people just like us? This is a concept which confuses and baffles me!"
Unless Earth-1 doesn't have Star Trek or comics or Buffy the Vampire Slayer or pretty much any other form of fantasy literature, parallel dimensions or an "Evil-verse" are a very common trope in sci-fi. I could buy "Wait, I thought that was just fiction! You mean it's real?" but "The concept is completely unfamiliar to me" was a bridge too far.
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Some pre-med undergrads are very focused on being doctors and don't give a $#!+ about non-required classes, like some physical sciences, like physics.
Not that it justifies Caitlin at all, but yeah, I can think of at least one example.
Some pre-med undergrads are very focused on being doctors and don't give a $#!+ about non-required classes, like some physical sciences, like physics.
It would have very likely been required for Caitlin. She's described as a bio-engineer, rather than a doctor. She'd probably have a curriculum similar to MIT's biological engineering major (in fact, since she was working at Star Labs in 2011 having obtained her doctorate, she would have graduated undergrad at a time when there weren't very many other schools that offered that major, with MIT as one of the first to do so in February 2005, resulting in the first graduates in that major a few years later, though it has since spread out more).
5.07 -or- 7.05 Biochemistry
5.12 Organic Chemistry
18.03 Differential Equations -or- 3.016 Mathematical Methods for Materials Scientists and Engineers
7.03 Genetics
7.06 Cell Biology
20.109 Laboratory Fundamentals in Biological Engineering
20.110J/2.772J -or- 20.111J/7.10J Thermodynamics of Biomolecular Systems
6.0001 Introduction to Computer Science and Programming -and- 6.0002 Introduction to Computational Thinking and Data Science
20.320 Analysis of Biomolecular & Cellular Systems
20.330/2.793J/6.023J Fields, Forces and Flows in Biological Systems
20.309 Biological Engineering II: Instrumentation and Measurements
20.380 Biological Engineering Design
Plus three Restricted Electives from the following thematic areas: <snipped>
Given the huge media coverage of the dangers of the particle accelerator, it would have been odd for a scientist working on the project to not be exposed to that terminology even if she had somehow avoided it in undergrad (consider media coverage of CERN, and then imagine being one of the people who worked at CERN), even if it was just asking someone like Wells, Cisco, or Ronnie who knew more about black holes what the flaws were in the articles.
But really, it's just one annoying moment.
The "explain science-ish stuff to people" thing that annoyed me the most was when they were trying to explain Earth-2 to Joe, and he was like, "What? Another earth just like ours filled with people just like us? This is a concept which confuses and baffles me!"
Unless Earth-1 doesn't have Star Trek or comics or Buffy the Vampire Slayer or pretty much any other form of fantasy literature, parallel dimensions or an "Evil-verse" are a very common trope in sci-fi. I could buy "Wait, I thought that was just fiction! You mean it's real?" but "The concept is completely unfamiliar to me" was a bridge too far.
Joe doesn't strike me as a huge Buffy/Comic/Star Trek/Fringe type guy. If I tried to explain that concept to my dad, he'd give me the same attitude.
Just because a show is rooted in certain genre... and it appeals to fans of that same genre... doesn't mean we should assume that every character in it is as well versed in that genre as we are.
Honestly I like time travel stories MUCH more then I do parallel earth stories. This idea another earth where everyone made different decisions in their lives... yet for some reason EVERY SINGLE one of their parents still met, and created every one of our main cast at the exact same point in time... REALLY stretches believability in my mind... which is already REALLY flexible and willing to take things on faith.
I love the old earth-1/earth-2 original concept... It wasn't E1 Barry and E2 Barry... it Was Barry and Jay, Alan and Hal, No J'onn Jonnz at all, They have Hourman and Doctor Midnight. There were a lot of familiar names... but origin and person under the mask was vastly different. Ressurected Egyptian prince and ALien space cop.
Of course there were the standby superman/batman/wonder woman... but they were the exceptions.
Some pre-med undergrads are very focused on being doctors and don't give a $#!+ about non-required classes, like some physical sciences, like physics.It would have very likely been required for Caitlin. She's described as a bio-engineer, rather than a doctor. She'd probably have a curriculum similar to MIT's biological engineering major (in fact, since she was working at Star Labs in 2011 having obtained her doctorate, she would have graduated undergrad at a time when there weren't very many other schools that offered that major, with MIT as one of the first to do so in February 2005, resulting in the first graduates in that major a few years later, though it has since spread out more).
** spoiler omitted **
Given the huge media coverage of the dangers of the particle accelerator, it would have been odd for a scientist working on the project to not be exposed to that terminology even if she had somehow avoided it in undergrad (consider media coverage of CERN, and then imagine being one of the people who worked at CERN), even if it was just asking someone like Wells, Cisco, or Ronnie who knew more...
Yeah, one of the dudes I went to grad school with designs prosthetics and has an MD, PhD. in anthropology, and PhD. in mechanical engineering. So he took all of the sciences. :-P
It is still annoying though, even if it's just ONE moment.
As for Joe, maybe he doesn't watch TV. :p
It is still annoying though, even if it's just ONE moment.
As for Joe, maybe he doesn't watch TV. :p
No TV in jail. :-(
Smilo,
That's Henry. Joe, as far as we know, has not been nor ever has been to jail.
As a detective he's there on a regular basis! However, that's 'to jail' and not 'in jail'. :PSmilo,
That's Henry. Joe, as far as we know, has not been nor ever has been to jail.
I feel like someone should make a "SchJöedinger West" pun here, but I lack sufficient Perform ranks to pull it off.
Fine. I meant in jail. :p
My bad.
I think genre shows have to start recognizing their fans know pretty much all the genre conventions.
For example, Wally should have said "Come with me if you want to live" when he rescued Barry. As should everyone ever who rescues someone while driving a, um, anything.
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Metahumans all over Central City. Havoc and destruction all over the news. Not a single sign of the military. They were all over the place in the first season chasing after metahumans. You'd think maybe the mayor would put in a call to the President and ask for some help.
I also really wish the end of the episode hadn't been Barry just standing there and watching it happen. He should have done something. Tried to rush Zoom. Tried to take him out before it happened. He knows Zoom is a psychopath. You can't appeal to his better nature. He doesn't have one.
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Metahumans all over Central City. Havoc and destruction all over the news. Not a single sign of the military. They were all over the place in the first season chasing after metahumans. You'd think maybe the mayor would put in a call to the President and ask for some help.
I also really wish the end of the episode hadn't been Barry just standing there and watching it happen. He should have done something. Tried to rush Zoom. Tried to take him out before it happened. He knows Zoom is a psychopath. You can't appeal to his better nature. He doesn't have one.
Sometimes you just freeze no matter who you are.
I'm sure he was looking for an opening... Zoom is too fast just to rush in
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I also really wish the end of the episode hadn't been Barry just standing there and watching it happen. He should have done something. Tried to rush Zoom. Tried to take him out before it happened. He knows Zoom is a psychopath. You can't appeal to his better nature. He doesn't have one.
Indeed. It didn't make much sense that he wouldn't at least try to save his father.
It was pretty grating when Caitlin didn't know what an event horizon / singularity was at the end of Season 1 as a vehicle to explain it for the audience. It doesn't matter if you're a bio major, you'll know that by the end of an undergraduate science program (if you didn't already learn it from high school). Other than that I haven't minded it as much.
While I agree for Caitlin (both as her credentials are portrayed and as a fictional "scientist" essentially always ends up being a generalist also), I disagree with your confidence in the broadness of science curricula. I have spoken with chemistry graduate students who are confident heavier objects will fall faster than lighter ones, and not because of air resistance. And that's considerably more fundamental to physics than anything they're explaining with a clever metaphor.
I'm sure he was looking for an opening... Zoom is too fast just to rush in
How about when Zoom let go and raised his hand to dramatically drive it through Henry's torso? That would have been a good time.
I'm sure he was looking for an opening... Zoom is too fast just to rush inHow about when Zoom let go and raised his hand to dramatically drive it through Henry's torso? That would have been a good time.
Not really... He had to hope he could cross a room before Zoom moved his hand about a foot? Those aren't good odds. Against Grodd or Capt. Cold, I would agree... but when speedsters make everything equal?? That's not a good gamble.
He had already released Caitlyn, proving that he wasn't a COMPLETE monster. Trying to hostage negotiate was the safer move.
It was pretty grating when Caitlin didn't know what an event horizon / singularity was at the end of Season 1 as a vehicle to explain it for the audience. It doesn't matter if you're a bio major, you'll know that by the end of an undergraduate science program (if you didn't already learn it from high school). Other than that I haven't minded it as much.While I agree for Caitlin (both as her credentials are portrayed and as a fictional "scientist" essentially always ends up being a generalist also), I disagree with your confidence in the broadness of science curricula. I have spoken with chemistry graduate students who are confident heavier objects will fall faster than lighter ones, and not because of air resistance. And that's considerably more fundamental to physics than anything they're explaining with a clever metaphor.
I'm actually referring not to any general ignorance on her part of the typical science jargon in an episode but rather to a very specific example where she asked "What's a singularity" at the end of season 1.
I'm actually referring not to any general ignorance on her part of the typical science jargon in an episode but rather to a very specific example where she asked "What's a singularity" at the end of season 1.
I'd even be willing to forgive that if she was just a "regular" bio-engineer. But she worked at a place that had a particle accelerator.
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So, let me get this straight…..
Then he f+++s it all up by going back in time and saving his mom.
F%$~ing Flashpoint.
Guess I should have seen that coming. The writers can't go too long without having Barry do something monumentally idiotic.
But, hey! At least we got to see the real Jay Garrick. That was awesome. And we got to see Team Flash be the idiots for once, thinking they could take on Zoom. And we got to see Wally being cool and helping Flash. And a few boring ass scenes between Barry and Iris, the two least chemistry-ish people on the entire CW network. Let’s not forget Cisco getting a better hang on his powers. Honorable mention to Caitlin using the already overused hologram thing.
Seriously, though. Someone needs to just slap Barry in the face with an alternate universe. That was really f!$%ing stupid.
Yeah, that was dumb that he saved his mom, when in the past he specifically prevented himself from doing so. He said he'd already made peace with his mom's death. If he was going to do that, why not go back and save his dad? I mean, I know we already have the same actor portraying Jay, but in terms of the story it makes way more sense for him to save the dad.
Barry's plan was ok, I guess, and the team's plan kind of worked, but it was ridiculous. "We'll boot him and send him back to Earth 2 for good." Uh, in the past he just cut the boot off with his hand and he can make his own breaches, so I don't really understand why they think their plan would work. Even if they succeed (and he doesn't capture Joe--man I'm sick of Zoom constantly kidnapping them), can't he just instantly make another breach and come right back?
Barry, Barry, Barry...
I'm just....wow.
And DC Comics people complain about Rebirth... :p ;)
damn it Barry....this close, was this close to giving you a high five but now I gotta turn it into a b$+*& slap.
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"The guy before me was a hero to a lot of people. He even saved the multiverse once. But he kept doing more and more stupid things, and finally the time wraiths took him away. I'll miss him. He inspired me to be what I am today. My name is Wally West, and I am the fastest man alive."
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** spoiler omitted **
Yes, but the writer's could easily have done the universe merger without resorting to Barry doing something utterly stupid.
Instead, they had Barry be an idiot again.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Wow, what a bunch of emotionless robots on this thread. Of course Barry was stupid, but he was in a state of grief after witnessing his father be murdered in front of his eyes. Emotions got the better of him, both dealing with Zoom and going back to save his mom. That makes Barry human, and flawed, but good characters are both. Things would be pretty boring if the Flash always made the best choice, since with his powers he's pretty unbeatable if he doesn't beat himself. I highly doubt most people could be completely emotionless and make the calculated best call in the state of turmoil Barry was in.
I for one and excited to see what kind of changes and repercussions happen to Barry and team based on his latest decision. I suspect a lot, and while they might weave Supergirl universe into the impact, I don't think that's their plan, since a) the Supergirl deal happened after the finale was done shooting, and b) the changes should be limited to Earth-1 (and spillover to Earth-2 for characters who crossed over).
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Barry and Iris are once again not together, since he wouldn't have even grown up with her to become infatuated with her. Joe could also be a lot more professional with Barry, since he likely won't be his foster dad now.
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I don't necessarily consider myself an emotionless robot. I just despise poor, lazy writing, and having the hero more often than not make the absolute worst possible decision.
And it's not like Barry has never been faced with the possibility of saving his mother without it being an emotional decision. That's what he did in the first season, and he was capable of making the correct choice.
If anything, with his emotional state being what it was, it would have made more sense to have him go back in time and try to save his father. That's the one he had just lost after supposedly coming to terms with his mother's death. But, again, poor and lazy writing.
I for one and excited to see what kind of changes and repercussions happen to Barry and team based on his latest decision.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Barry and Iris are once again not together, since he wouldn't have even grown up with her to become infatuated with her. Joe could also be a lot more professional with Barry, since he likely won't be his foster dad now.
The biggest question now is what does Barry do with Thawne immediately after preventing his mother's death? If Thawne has any speed energy left, it'll be hard to contain him without those special cells they have at Star Labs (which don't exist yet.) If Thawne is drained of speed energy he can be locked up conventionally, but that might be awkward given that they can't ID a man who won't be born for centuries.
Assuming Thawne is out of the way immediately following the not-death of Nora Allen, Wells never gets killed and replaced, so the particle accelerator explosion happens on its original schedule, not five years early as Thawne had set it up: there is no Flash yet in 2016.
Joe could be more professional, but young Barry now has no particular reason to go into police forensics; he grew up with both parents and has nothing he needs to investigate. With no investigation of his mom's murder, he may never meet Joe and Iris.
He might still become the Flash in...2018? 2019?...but it won't necessarily be because he was doused with chemicals in a police lab. Once he does, some interaction with CCPD is inevitable, so he could meet Joe/Iris many years later than he had in his original timeline.
The next big question is what happens to Barry when he returns to the present after having so drastically altered his own past? Does he physically merge with the 2016 version of himself newly created by his mucking about in the past? Does he now have two conflicting sets of memories going back over a decade?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think Barry can easily still become a forensics scientist. While his mom didn't die to drive him in that direction, he still had a freaking weird thing happen in his childhood with a battle of speedsters, which could send him in the direction of wanting to explore what it could be and form a fascination with the bizarre and unexplained crimes.
What happens with the particle accelerator timeline will certainly need to be explained. Maybe Thawne is locked up, but escapes and takes on the Harrison persona unchanged?
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With no investigation of his mom's murder, he may never meet Joe and Iris.
He might still become the Flash in...2018? 2019?...but it won't necessarily be because he was doused with chemicals in a police lab. Once he does, some interaction with CCPD is inevitable, so he could meet Joe/Iris many years later than he had in his original timeline.
Barry and Iris were already best friends before his mother was killed. That's why Joe took him in.
Barry and Iris were already best friends before his mother was killed. That's why Joe took him in.
Ah, yes, you're right.
Two words for this episode: G~$@$&NIT BARRY!
My problem with the end of the season final episode is what are the writers going to do with the event. Barry should know by now that messing with the time line is very risky. The Flashpoint movie is a good example of that. I expect a lot of bad things to happen to Barry due to his rash act.
Wow, what a bunch of emotionless robots on this thread. Of course Barry was stupid, but he was in a state of grief after witnessing his father be murdered in front of his eyes. Emotions got the better of him, both dealing with Zoom and going back to save his mom. That makes Barry human, and flawed, but good characters are both. Things would be pretty boring if the Flash always made the best choice, since with his powers he's pretty unbeatable if he doesn't beat himself. I highly doubt most people could be completely emotionless and make the calculated best call in the state of turmoil Barry was in.
I for one and excited to see what kind of changes and repercussions happen to Barry and team based on his latest decision. I suspect a lot, and while they might weave Supergirl universe into the impact, I don't think that's their plan, since a) the Supergirl deal happened after the finale was done shooting, and b) the changes should be limited to Earth-1 (and spillover to Earth-2 for characters who crossed over).
Couldn't agree more. Barry's decision wasn't rational, but I think he wasn't in really a rational state. Too much tragedy in too short a time, and I think he just didn't really want to deal anymore with it. Saving his mom, in his eyes, saves both parents, and he probably thinks a bunch of people
Granted I am really worried about next season. Time travel is really really hard to deal with on TV even by really good writers. Not sure how much of next season will make sense, especially since LoT kind of didn't deal with the repercussions well.
I think it's how they'll tie Supergirl into the same universe as the rest of the CW shows. I'm not sure how, but that's my feeling.
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Barry's decision wasn't rational sure. I get that. I also get that he should have KNOWN by the now, the consequences of that decision.
As for him saving Joe versus risking everyone, there's STILL ample evidence that Zoom would have powered it up anyway and blown Earth-1 to hell just because he could. Zoom didn't because he wanted to keep Earth-1 but even so, I don't trust a guy that can basically MURDER himself over and over again.
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But, hey! Since they've essentially erased seasons one and two, now they can just retell each of those stories, but with slight changes to make things new(ish). Maybe just have Barry re-set the world the end of each season! We've got Joe, Iris, Wally (oops not anymore), Cisco & Caitlin (maybe), and Nora & Henry. That's at least six more seasons of tragic deaths Barry can re-set!
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I realized earlier today that Barry just turned himself into a time remnant.
Sigh. Paraphrasing "Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty common sense."
Spiral,
Not sure he's that cosmic but damn does he sure screw up the timestream. Both in and out of the comics.