If a Paladin uses Smite Evil does it bypass even DR/Epic? I'm struggling with the idea that a say, a 5th level Paladin can smite a level 10/5 mythic Fighter due to Smite Evil with a +1 sword and bypass all DR.
NOTE: The Mythic rules are the latter rules.
DR/Epic
A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
Smite Evil (Su)
Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
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I hate to say it, but if you're throwing 10/5 Mythic Fighters at your Paladin, who has zero Mythic tiers, and is only half of his base level, you must really hate him, the class he plays, as well as any Paladin in your game. (It's also not that bad, since Fighters can get feats later down the road that helps accomplish this; though it's universal they aren't nearly as good as bypassing every kind of DR they have). That being said, if you don't allow it to work, you're ignoring the RAW (any means any; remember this thread and your viewpoint here? Same application), and it's just downright cruel in your attempts to kill the Paladin. (Quite frankly, it would be more civil to just have a Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies effect put on the Paladin, as well as every other Paladin in your game.)
And if the Fighter isn't Evil, that Smite won't work, ergo no DR bypass. You could be smart and throw in other lines of defense, such as making him have Ghost Touch equipment with an Incorporeal effect, meaning even if he does Smite, he still isn't accomplishing too much.
There's also an armor property that allows you to shrug off a Smite effect 1/day, which can be replenished by using up a Smite charge; but the 1/day thing should be more than enough, since he still has to waste Smite charges and Swift Actions (which could be used to heal instead) to get Smite benefits.
There are several ways to counteract/reduce Smite and its benefits/applications. Ignoring them as well as the RAW of the Smite ability calls into question whether the concern is actually with the rules or with you not able to handle the powerscale of Paladins.
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Be aware that even before Mythic came on the scene, there already existed DR/- which no type of weapon can overcome. DR/- is actually more powerful than DR/epic. And with that already in the game, Smite Evil was given the ability to bypass all DR.
Smite > DR/Epic
Personally, I don't allow it, since Paladins already trivialize a lot of encounters. Of course everybody can have their own opinions, which are equally valid as mine.
Smite is the "easy button" for overcoming DR, so yes, it wins. If in doubt, it wins.
Many of us house rule it differently, but as mentioned directly above, it's a house rule, not an official one.
-TimD
Any DR the creature might possess is ANY DR the creature might possess.
The paladin's Smite Evil ability means what it says: Bypass all DR.
That's how I'll play it at my table, at least.
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I don't think it's by RAW. I think there's a discrepancy in the RAW.
...only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater...
Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
Both those abilities seem to be at odds. None of the DR types include the word only in their descriptions. Nor is that in the general listing for DR. And there doesn't appear to be an order of preference.
If they didn't want to restrict Paladin's ability, they could just delete the word only. It's not like it's needed for the rest of the description. In fact, in another section, they describe that creatures with DR/Epic can overcome DR/Epic with their own natural attacks. So it's wrong anyway to have the word only in there if it's not the only way.
For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic.
Please don't try to argue that "only" is somehow more absolute than "all".
So you've proved that another one is poorly written too. Congratulations. Two of them are worded badly. And which one is the most recent released book and should be worded correctly. The point remains that they could clarify this by taking out one word.
I love the condescension though. Keep that up.
Not poorly written. Both of those examples are simply a case of stating the base rule. Smite evil is a specific rule that overrides the base rules in regards to DR.
Smite evil works great for bypassing DR/Epic right up to the point when you encounter that evil enemy that has corruption resistance.
In my Wrath of Righteous game Smite Good has been useful Impervious Body which is DR 5,10,or 15/Epic. Of course my players answer to the was Corruption Resistance but as Assimar he can only do that 1/day. It was good investment for, I told him that might come in useful when said he thought that was stupid alternative to the Daylight spell.
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So you've proved that another one is poorly written too. Congratulations. Two of them are worded badly. And which one is the most recent released book and should be worded correctly. The point remains that they could clarify this by taking out one word.
I love the condescension though. Keep that up.
I think you misunderstood my post.
You had made the case that since DR/epic said "only" and none of the other DR types said "only", that it could potentially be inferred that it functions differently than the standard DR rules.
I then showed that when the Core Rulebook defines how DR works, it uses the equivalently-absolute term "all". Thus, the element of your argument that I italicized above is incorrect. The only way you could claim that DR/epic worked any differently than other DR is if you claimed that "only" and "all" were on different tiers (some people would try to make that claim, so I tried to preempt it, because I don't know you from Adam).
Since we now know that DR/epic works just like other DR, and we know that Smite Evil can bypass that other DR, the final conclusion is crystal clear.
Well DR/Epic came out in the Bestiary which was released right after Core Rulebook long before Mythic came out.
So if Paladin (Or Anti-paladin in the case of a Solar) smite worked to overcome DR then, why would it not work now?
They were released concurrently. The CRB and Bestiary 1 together form the core of what Pathfinder is.
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+1 to what Jiggy posted.
Also: Posted by Jason Bulmahn.
As I have not yet seen an update/errata on this issue I'd assume the question is answered.
Just remember the target has to be evil, too.
Ruyan.
So what? the 10/5 Fighter is still going to turn him into paste in one shot, which in all likelihood he'll get before the Paladin even gets to declare his smite. You're looking for a solution to a non-existent problem.If a Paladin uses Smite Evil does it bypass even DR/Epic? I'm struggling with the idea that a say, a 5th level Paladin can smite a level 10/5 mythic Fighter due to Smite Evil with a +1 sword and bypass all DR.
This. Have you even seen the stuff a 10th-level fighter can do with five mythic tiers? The paladin had better be an archer acting on the surprise round, or he'll be lucky to even get his weapon out before becoming another footnote in the Chronicles of Rip Steakface.
In my opinion DR for NPCs/monsters is useless if you play Mythic or use the DR errata.