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You continually overlooked drawbacks for the other spells. You made 6hd cap on a 1st level spell worth -3 points, bit only gave -2 for beig shortdistance single target as opposed to med disyance multitarget. You also made the "loose" interpretation one that has not been claimed in this thread.
Honestly, having to cast thespell within move and attack distance is a bigger drawback than not being able to use a first level spell past say level 7.
Also you ignored that the restrictive interpretation is an autowin basically that both disables and sets upfor AoOs and gives a penalty to saves. You also didnt factor in that sleeping creatures can be awoken, and you undervalued a guaranteed one round -2 to everything.
I think scare (unde my interpretation) is better than CP in combat, about equal to color spray, and slightly worse than sleep. Scare is about equal to oppressive boredom and tashas, beig much more useful against ranged and flying creatures and much safer to cast while having slightly weaker effect.
I did say that the ratings are quite subjective and the categories are not weighted. If I were to weight them, I would have the overall total more in favor of the other spells.
Are you really trying to claim Scare and Cause fear are better than these other spells under even the literal interpretation? What about the loose one?
Also I have seen probably 60ish enemies die to some form of sleep/coup de gras, I have never once seen a person die to fear effects....well I have seen there friends die because of it.
"the loose interpretation" is oe not present in this thread and thus irrelevant.
I have seen plenty of creatures lose a fight due to cause fear, even on a successful save. Ive also seen that with sleep of course, but ive also seen sleep get interrupted by the enemy many times due to its full round castig time. The only reason id rate sleep above cause fear is range, which is a biggie.
Color spray i rate equal because its even riskier than cause fear and can be hard to place without hitting the party. It also basically only work on melee opponents and youdont want to be like 10ft from them.
I consider color spray, sleep, cause fear and grease as the 4 really good 1st level debuffs (for wizzes). They all have notable strengths andweaknesses, but cause fear as well as grease has the huge benefits of not being worthless if the enemy makes a save. There are a bunch more but those are far worse, but youdidnt bring them up in your xomparision either.
Charm person is just crap in combat.
The only part not in this thread is the get to fight to avoid AoO's and since I have seen that in person from people invoking the same logic used in this thread, I think it very relevant.
I could, and have argued Charm for hours. I would say it it far from crap in battle, although it is harder to use there. I have also seen more people die to color spray than I could count. I would guess about 15 in one game was my max.
If you are going to claim the -2 is so good, just demoralize and don't spend resources. The control effect is the main point of comparison for me, and as far as I am concerned all these other spells actually control better than either of the fear spells, even when without needing to resort to supposed "needed interpretation and common sense."
How about these second level spells? Care to weigh in on those. I actually think they are not as greatly overpowered compared to frightened and you haven't even mentioned those.
If its not in this thread its not really relevant. And no, there is a huge difference in logic with "a character doesnt have to flee ifscape is literally impossible" and "a character doesnt have to flee ifdoing so is risky".
Yeah ive seen plenty die from color spray. Includibg party members and caster. Its a very powerful spell, the most powerful effect, but also the riskiest spell.
Yeah no a free demoralize check as part of any spell is a great benefit, but unlike demoralize this doesnt require you to invest in cha or ranks. So its better than getting a free demoralize effect.
And if you disregard large parts of the benefits of a spell, of course they seem weak. So not only are you ignoring the drawbacks of the other spells, you are deliberately ignoribg a major benefit of fear spells.
I didnt mention the second level ones because im on a phone and cant really type that well, but i think the range of frighten makes it better than tashas and oppressive boredom in many, many encounters, and that the free shaken is a great boon in "boss" battles, especially in a group with more casters.
That said, Tashas is incredibly strong, like a supercharged cause fear.
Also, to clarify, im comparing the spells as cast by a straight wizard or similar, not say superfocused like a heavens oracle focusibg in color spray -those are a goddamn monsters, with the defenses to cast in melee and with good DCs.
Also, to clarify, im comparing the spells as cast by a straight wizard or similar, not say superfocused like a heavens oracle focusibg in color spray -those are a goddamn monsters, with the defenses to cast in melee and with good DCs.
I am glad that it sounds like you are suggesting that Fear effects are not overpowered compared to other similar spells.
So only if I can convince the people who use the same loophole others are trying to use to come into this thread, it has any bearing on the relevance of the supposed loophole? I couldn't disagree more. By that logic we can all exploit loopholes all day long and as long as no one tries to defend them on the boards it doesn't matter.
When running from something that can catch you, it is not "literally impossible" to live. Assuming it doesn't have pounce it has a minimum of a 5% chance of missing you every single round. Perhaps terrain, intent, other targets, or other help change the playing field after a few rounds and then you live. Additionally, a frightened character very well could be hoping for anything like this without actually being able to see it before it arises. It is not literally impossible to live through your frightened state.
When circling in a room from a slow creature, it is not literally impossible to get away. You may find an exit, someone may create an exit, someone may remove the threat for you, you WILL eventually become not frightened. You WILL NOT eventually die from the slow moving terror.
It is irrelevant because misrepresenting what people are saying in a discussion means no proper comparison can be had. When you only compare the twoextremes - one which is so extreme theres noone here claiming it at all - you get a pointless binary choice. Essentially, its something in between a strawman, a guilt by association, and a slippery slope. And its not pretty.
I agree in full with your third paragraph, however, id like to add that its the characters assessment of the sitauation rather than the players that should matter. Though perhaps i should have reworded it, i guess literally was a too strong word, should have said "for all intents and purposes". Outswimming a shark in the middle of the ocean, for example.
And the part with character assessment is relevant to your fourth paragraph. Compare this to or example the discussion of illusions, where "proof of an illusion automatically lets you disbelieve". Some have taken this to mean that theres no way this clause can apply since its impossible to prove something is an illusion, because you could always claim it is actually real but that your crazy so you think its an illusion or something similar.
I think rules like this are intended to be read with a fair deal of common sense and good judgement.
Im sorry if ive come across aggressive, i got kinda irritated at your first post because you seemed to willfully igbore drawbacks on other spells since all your misses in the rules where ones that supported your interpretation.
Though i still think the comparison is heavily flawed. Ill probably make a different ine when i come home that i feel more accurately compares the debuffs available at each level.
And ido think that cause fear, with your ibterpretation, would be the overall strongest 1st level debuff. With my interpretation it is one of the four strongest, and debuffs in general are very powerful; id not want to further empower it.
I am not misrepresenting what people have said. I am repeating what people have said that looks a lot like some of what has been said here.
I actually edited a line into my third paragraph before seeing your last post. It is the one about the creature hoping for one of those circumstances even if it can't see it.
It actually took me a while to put together that list, I was interrupted about 15 times at work while trying to do it and started about 2 hours before I finished it. It wasn't meant to be perfect and I stated that from the start. It was meant to point out, that from a min/max powergaming point of view, those fear spells would be the last on that list for me to take, even with the reading I have been putting forth.
I have to admit, I would have a hard time with the proving something is an illusion thing as well. Not necessarily for the crazy reason, but simply in general it seems like a hard thing to prove.
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Why does it call for interpretation? Because you don't like the literal? I would agree with your adjudication in the last paragraph until the run in circles example. For that one and everything after, I would say they do have to flee until the duration of frightened runs out; the effect calls for it quite literally.
The first definition of "flee" that pops up on google is "run away from."
Is a creature unable to take the run action unable to flee?
What if you can't move away from the thing you're fleeing from? And should "away" be interpreted as motion in the opposite direction of the object of fear (such that if your back is against a wall or you are in a physical corner you cannot flee), or is "away" any movement in which you end your turn farther from the object of fear than you begin it (such that you can tumble through the object's space), or any movement in which you end the round farther from the object than you begin it?
Then there's alternative definitions of "flee" (1) to move swiftly (2) to escape by running away, which bring up the questions addressed above (1) are you unable to flee if you can't move faster than your opponent and (2) are you unable to flee if you can't actually escape and are running in circles.
The literal definition still requires interpretation.
There's also TONS of interpretation required in Charm Person in order to adjudicate whether a request is "anything it wouldn't ordinarily do" and thus requires a Cha check, and whether something is obviously harmful or just very dangerous ("An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing").
When circling in a room from a slow creature, it is not literally impossible to get away. You may find an exit, someone may create an exit, someone may remove the threat for you, you WILL eventually become not frightened. You WILL NOT eventually die from the slow moving terror.
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Chances are, by the time the character could make an in-character assessment of whether or not it was likely hopeless (a broken, supposed loophole that really has no business in this discussion in my opinion) to flee, the frightened condition has likely worn off.
Sure, and it's perfectly reasonable for a character to waste a round or two when frightened looking for an exit they've missed or some other miracle escape. However, in the event that the frightened condition has not ended after a round or two (eg Extended Cause Fear lasts up to 8 rounds) the creature should realize it "cannot flee" and thus be given the option to fight. The fact that the frightened condition may wear off by the time a character realizes they can't flee doesn't mean that it shouldn't be possible for a character to realize that they can't flee.
This is no different from Sleep ending early if you're woken up - except Cause Fear still gives you -2.