It's nice to have a dude in distress for a change, although they usually are more marked by violence as he is, than the damsels are.Or if the damsels are marked, it's usually in such a way to make her clothing more revealing.
Yes, certainly.
As for the bad boy stereotype, do women often think of the bad boy treating them the same way he treats everyone else? Or is part of the fantasy that he'll treat her differently this time?
Some think they'll change him. I know someone personally who married a bad boy after high school and found out that she couldn't change him.
Part of it is likely just the attractiveness of masculine qualities, like aggression, that are related to testosterone. Of course, women can be plenty aggressive, although it tends to be more social in nature and less physical.
As for the casual hookups thing... there was a campus study that suggested that men who were asked by attractive strangers (campus women) for sex randomly thought the women were unusually confident. As a result, they expected them to be better than average performers. Women, meanwhile, expected the men who hit on them randomly to be worse than average (desperate).
Most men said yes. All the women said no.
I just read through the Wikipedia descriptions of the various fey in D&D and found three examples of female beauties and zero examples of male beauties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fey_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29
Dryad are tree spirits with the forms of beautiful human or elven women made out of smooth, brown-green wood, and with grass and leaves for hair.
The nymph are fae that resemble elven women. Nymphs prefer secluded coves or sandy beaches, and are mostly solitary. Nymphs hate ugliness and evil.
Sirines are playful, gregarious fey that dwell on sandy beaches, secluded coves and rocky islands. Sirines resemble highly attractive human women. They wear flowers in their hair and their ragged clothing typically leaves little to the imagination.
The gynosphinx illustration that I just happened upon (from the 1979 book) is most amusing, too.
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Haha, true, the original game skewed so straight male it was embarrassing.
OTOH, when you're drawing from mythology, like most of the fey, that's what you're going to find.
Not so. I already cited the very popular Antinous. Eros was also the male love/sex God and was an attractive young man before he was eventually changed into a child.
There was plenty of appreciation for male beauty in the ancient world.
OTOH, when you're drawing from mythology, like most of the fey, that's what you're going to find.Not so. I already cited the very popular Antinous. Eros was also the male love/sex God and was an attractive young man before he was eventually changed into a child.
There was plenty of appreciation for male beauty in the ancient world.
Those are however individuals, not races. Satyrs and centaurs seem to fill the "male virile spirit" niche in Greek Myth.
While there are certainly male seductive spirits, I would say from my experience with folklore, practically every culture has had at least one if not several types of succubus/nymph like creature, while many cultures seem to lack the male equivalent completely, or only have a single example
While there are certainly male seductive spirits, I would say from my experience with folklore, practically every culture has had at least one if not several types of succubus/nymph like creature, while many cultures seem to lack the male equivalent completely, or only have a single example
And it's mainly for the reason SRS posted earlier:
As for the casual hookups thing... there was a campus study that suggested that men who were asked by attractive strangers (campus women) for sex randomly thought the women were unusually confident. As a result, they expected them to be better than average performers. Women, meanwhile, expected the men who hit on them randomly to be worse than average (desperate).
Most men said yes. All the women said no.
A beguiling strange woman can entice a man away from his duties easily. A beguiling strange man cannot entice a woman away. Thus, the need for folktales in which the man is lured away to his doom, while having none where the woman is lured away.
It makes Dracula all that much more interesting of a story, no?
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A beguiling strange woman can entice a man away from his duties easily. A beguiling strange man cannot entice a woman away. Thus, the need for folktales in which the man is lured away to his doom, while having none where the woman is lured away.
It makes Dracula all that much more interesting of a story, no?
Um. Not very convinced of that. Certainly the women lured away by handsome fellows of the Aos Si in Irish legend were often convinced to leave, though usually for casual sex (Irish women being more empowered to sleep with others even if they didn't necessarily leave their families).
Of course there are strong similarities that have been noted between Dracula and the folkloric Irish beings, given Stoke was Irish.
However, outside of Eire:
In India, the stranger/seducer is often a god (Siva or Vishnu) who appears to a female disciple (who is revealed to herself to be a minor avatar of the god's consort). The male counterparts to the apsaras were the gandharvas, who also seduced women alone in the country. Travelling yogis and of course buddhist monks in Asian legend and folklore are often itinerant seducers, like the friars of medieval Europe.
These types don't seduce as an expression of male gaze; they represent an expression of female desire that is not constrained by what are often arranged marriages.
I'm not sure if you were implying that I actually believed as much, so to make sure, I was not suggesting that Cayden should suddenly start liking his buns with sausage in them. I'm perfectly fine with heterosexuals because I happen to be one, and I don't think character derailment for the sake of appeasing PCness would be effective.God forbid Paizo's inclusiveness campaign include heterosexuals, amirite?I don't see Cayden Cailean discriminating. Everything's pleasurable with the proper application of alcohol.The thread is about what Paizo explicitly states and what it should state, no? Cayden has only been described to go after the ladies so far.
I don't think having ONE male god, out of the 10+ of them, being not-100% straight in sexual orientation is "erasing heterosexuals". In fact, that would even equal out to the 10% not-heterosexual population statistic that exists in real life.
Um. Not very convinced of that. Certainly the women lured away by handsome fellows of the Aos Si in Irish legend were often convinced to leave, though usually for casual sex (Irish women being more empowered to sleep with others even if they didn't necessarily leave their families).
Of course there are strong similarities that have been noted between Dracula and the folkloric Irish beings, given Stoke was Irish.
However, outside of Eire:
In India, the stranger/seducer is often a god (Siva or Vishnu) who appears to a female disciple (who is revealed to herself to be a minor avatar of the god's consort). The male counterparts to the apsaras were the gandharvas, who also seduced women alone in the country. Travelling yogis and of course buddhist monks in Asian legend and folklore are often itinerant seducers, like the friars of medieval Europe.
These types don't seduce as an expression of male gaze; they represent an expression of female desire that is not constrained by what are often arranged marriages.
That explains a lot, really. Seems like a cultural thing. In lots of cultures the notion of a sexually empowered temptress seems more in line with the study SRS cited, whereas in the Irish example you give the women are already more in line with males in terms of promiscuity and thus end up with a similar result.
It's quite interesting.
I suppose my question is this: Do male characters have to be young, skinny, and hairless to be beautiful? Seems that's as much of a stereotype as cheesecake Seoni being the guideline for female beauty. The examples given by SRS seem to cater to a particular type and that may not be what every lover of "beautiful" men may want.
Ezren, for example, is older. He's also well-built and pleasing to the eye. Is he not beautiful? He might not be a particular player's cup of tea, but he's certainly not ugly by any means.
Ezren isn't ugly, I'd agree, though I don't find him attractive either.
Speaking only for myself as a gay male, some examples of who/what I find somewhat physically attractive includes Valeros, Eando Kline, Cayden Cailean, Sajan, satyrs and even Alain. The Bestiary 4 artwork of the fossegrim and the Empyreal Lord Cernunnos are also nice. I'm definitely not opposed to some body hair or them being out of their youth, though I don't like full-on beards (scruff or goatees are fine). Socothbenoth is said to be attractive, but I don't much care for super long hair, either.
So no, I'd say that male characters don't have to be young, skinny and hairless to be considered beautiful or attractive, but that is definitely a 'type' so to speak. Bishonen I think are what they're called. :P
I suppose my question is this: Do male characters have to be young, skinny, and hairless to be beautiful? Seems that's as much of a stereotype as cheesecake Seoni being the guideline for female beauty. The examples given by SRS seem to cater to a particular type and that may not be what every lover of "beautiful" men may want.
Depends. A girlfriend of mine is super into Bishonen guys, and if I use a portrait for an NPC that could be even remotely described as a bishi she's all over that guy.
Then she 180's and muses about nibbling on a certain person's scruffy beard, so who knows? :P
Ezren, for example, is older. He's also well-built and pleasing to the eye. Is he not beautiful? He might not be a particular player's cup of tea, but he's certainly not ugly by any means.
From another thread...
And you leave the sexy old men alone!
I <3 my Ezren. There are very few companies that will let an old man be sexy, but my God, Ezren is like the Dos Equis guy with a staff. Handsome, smart, and dead sexy.Give Us
More, Sexy,
Old Ezrens!Dem muscles, dem calves, dat staff. No satire this time.
Different beard, but it's definitely nibble-worthy. :3
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There's not enough hot women in Pathfinder. We need more hot women. There's not enough sexy ladies. Calistria isn't sexy, and Urgathoa is only sexy from the waste up, so let's get more sexy there. Also shirtless. We need more shirtless people, especially ladies. Also make sure they have beards. I like sexy lady beards.
...It's been one of those days. :P
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Urgathoa + Nethys = One complete body and a corpse... Just thought i'd throw that out there. UrgaNeth the OTP?
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Urgathoa + Nethys = One complete body and a corpse... Just thought i'd throw that out there. UrgaNeth the OTP?
Different halves. You'd get a corpse with half a brain and one person with a gammy leg. Of course, they'd also be half female, and so likely very confused and whichever gender they were, half of their genitalia would either be on fire with magic or rotting off so not necessarily a great outcome.
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Urgathoa + Nethys = One complete body and a corpse... Just thought i'd throw that out there. UrgaNeth the OTP?Different halves. You'd get a corpse with half a brain and one person with a gammy leg. Of course, they'd also be half female, and so likely very confused and whichever gender they were, half of their genitalia would either be on fire with magic or rotting off so not necessarily a great outcome.
There's mummy rot, then there's mommy rot. Neither are particularly fun to contract, nor to perish to. o_o
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Calistria isn't sexy
*eyebrow lift*
Desire goddesses don't generally take well to being insulted.
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Calistria isn't sexy*eyebrow lift*
Desire goddesses don't generally take well to being insulted.
Especially not Calistria. Goddess of vengeance and stuff too, IIRC, right? :P
That said, I stand by what I said 'cause she's more scary looking that sexy. Her body looks kind of sickly, she has saggy widespread boobs, and she looks kind of like the mother from Disney's Cinderella in terms of both expression and facial structure.
I realize "sexiness" is high subjective and varies from person to person and group to group, but she's definitely at the bottom of my sexy-lists. :P
Strangely, Urgathoa actually looks healthier as far as her living-portions appear, has an appealing face mixed with an expression of superiority, and I bet she'd look super cool in a dress or robe. :)
EDIT: Also while this fine lady is some sort of eldritch abomination, I think her facial expression is really cool.
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Calistria isn't sexy*eyebrow lift*
Desire goddesses don't generally take well to being insulted.
Especially not Calistria. Goddess of vengeance and stuff too, IIRC, right? :P
That said, I stand by what I said 'cause she's more scary looking that sexy. Her body looks kind of sickly, she has saggy widespread boobs, and she looks kind of like the mother from Disney's Cinderella in terms of both expression and facial structure.
Ah, well, blame the inability of mortal artists to properly capture the divine. :-)
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Say what you will about Paizo and gender politics, they do draw some sexy goblins.
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I'm actually not a huge fan of the original artwork of Calistria, either. I much prefer this version, presented in Faiths of Balance (though it could also just be a generic elven cleric of hers). Meh!
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I've got a couple of disrelated issues with regards to the topic, I'll go through them separately:
1. I like the discussion (and expect its fruit to show in upcoming Paizo products). But I would like to point out something that bugs me with SRS assertions:
Male beauty and female beauty are not really on the same continuum. Masculine women are not the most beautiful possibility of masculinity, at least if you're a gay male like I am.
I can appreciate that sentiment, but I find that pretty much all examples of beautiful men linked by SRS later on can be described as feminine looking guys; certainly all the ones labelled as "cute". Naturally it is possible to split hairs on this, but is that really far from the truth? For the art team it would be a lottery system to find an appropriately cute looking guy that has the right amount of gruff and the right amount of fluff.
(By the way: what is wrong with Nethys, visually speaking, in this regard? From the description and visualization I kept thinking he would be a shoo-in. Or is he okay visually but the sporadic madness is a problem?)
2. I think the spread for male eye-candy can - and should - be improved. There is definitely a lack of guys that look nice, while at the same time appearing desirable enough for the sack, or reliable enough to be marriage material. Or at least not averse to going out to dinner with.
3. But, I would like to point out that the abundance of sexualized female imagery is not really all that. Don't misunderstand - there is lots of it. But there is only a (very) small handful that actually hits the "sexy" strike zone. The kind that makes me nudge a buddy and go "dude! check this out!". (Almost invariably those reactions are reserved for awesome action scenes in Paizo products, for me.)
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[Opens the centerfold in Goblins of Golarion; has a disturbing male power fantasy]
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I'm actually not a huge fan of the original artwork of Calistria, either. I much prefer this version, presented in Faiths of Balance (though it could also just be a generic elven cleric of hers). Meh!
Wow she's a lot prettier in that picture. It looks like she managed to get a few cheeseburgers in her and a new hairdresser. :)
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Agreeing with LoreKeeper above, I kind of view the images SRS posted as somewhat feminine looking guys.
So! Copied from another somewhat related thread...
Here's some examples of what I wouldn't mind seeing more of in Pathfinder, and what I would consider attractive men. Maybe they're a little more masculine than what SRS posted?
Example 1 by Carolina Eade, which depicts an elven cleric of Shelyn. I really love her works, so vibrant and colorful, and stylish!
Example 2 and Example 3, both by dronio.
Example 4 and Example 5 by ElephantWendigo.
Example 6 and Example 7 by anndr. Could maybe pass for Socothbenoth and an elven follower of Zon-Kuthon? :P
And Example 8 by hgjart.
If anyone has the spare time, I definitely recommend browsing some of the above artists' galleries. Not only are there some excellent examples of attractive males (imo), but a lot of their stuff is just gorgeous work in general.
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I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
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I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
O_O
Dammit, he is.
On a related "male beauty" note, I just got a WotR PC sketch from a certain artist who is working on something special for the community. :D (BE WARNED THAT THE SITE HAS NSFW STUFF)
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Agreeing with LoreKeeper above, I kind of view the images SRS posted as somewhat feminine looking guys.
So! Copied from another somewhat related thread...
Here's some examples of what I wouldn't mind seeing more of in Pathfinder, and what I would consider attractive men. Maybe they're a little more masculine than what SRS posted?
Example 1 by Carolina Eade, which depicts an elven cleric of Shelyn. I really love her works, so vibrant and colorful, and stylish!
Example 2 and Example 3, both by dronio.
Example 4 and Example 5 by ElephantWendigo.
Example 6 and Example 7 by anndr. Could maybe pass for Socothbenoth and an elven follower of Zon-Kuthon? :P
And Example 8 by hgjart.If anyone has the spare time, I definitely recommend browsing some of the above artists' galleries. Not only are there some excellent examples of attractive males (imo), but a lot of their stuff is just gorgeous work in general.
I'm having to wait for my browser to settle down for some reason, but just to start, we could ALWAYS use more Carolina Eade. :)
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I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
He's so beautiful. (0.0)"
If he had female boobs that pic would be considered much NSFW (which reminds me of how dumb humanity is). :P
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I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
Doesn't appeal to me, though.
If he had female boobs that pic would be considered much NSFW (which reminds me of how dumb humanity is). :P
You need *reminding*?
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I should have stayed awake a bit later last night:
Another PC pic came down too from RA Shina/Repsychus: Ashak-Kenoth, Osirian paladin-prostitute of Lymnieris. Again, NSFW links warning, though this picture itself is work safe. Unless your workplace doesn't approve of half-naked mens. ;)
Paizo, the gauntlet* has been thrown when it comes time for official artwork for Lymnieran characters! >:)
*Not the one you won recently, mind.
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You need *reminding*?
If he had female boobs that pic would be considered much NSFW (which reminds me of how dumb humanity is). :P
Unfortunately. Crushes my verisimilitude. :P
Believing the best in everyone is tough when people remind you of how stupid people can be. (o~o)"
That said, the Hawkeye Initiative is freakin' epic. What's funny is that there's a lot of the before & after pics I like both versions of. :P
Doesn't appeal to me, though.I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
I DO agree that also we need more Idris Elbas and Michael Fassbenders, as well :DDDD
I DO agree that also we need more Idris Elbas and Michael Fassbenders, as well :DDDDDoesn't appeal to me, though.I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
I would also like some Pedro Pascal (although it's hard to say how much of that is his accent).
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I would also like some Pedro Pascal (although it's hard to say how much of that is his accent).I DO agree that also we need more Idris Elbas and Michael Fassbenders, as well :DDDDDoesn't appeal to me, though.I dunno, I tend to lean towards more feminine or androgynous men, like anndr's piece here.
This guy also looks like he's in Mikaze's ballpark, too ;)
A bunch of it is his swagger and smile, too.
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That's why we need diversity in our love interests! Who knows what someone's going to go for?
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That's why we need diversity in our love interests! Who knows what someone's going to go for?I know I never expected "awkward, handsome mongrelman crush" to be a thing in an AP. Glad it is though!
So yeah, absolutely agreed. Variety is extremely important for that.
And the spice of life.