| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm generally the odd one out that says diversity is overrated and claiming a need for it should be considered offensive.
Seriously, lets look at this statement some more.
That is hatred. It might be unintended hatred, but it is hatred none the less. Being opposed to diversity is being opposed to people who are different. That's all sorts of bad "isms".
It doesn't matter who is making a call for diversity, they're in a minority or a majority. In fact, people in the majority have a responsibility to make those calls, because it means we recognize that there are problems and they need to be corrected.
And yes, I do shut down. I don't apologize for it. I don't care what arguments people have to back up hatred. It's still hatred.
I hate reporting this stuff, because that just white-washes the issue and makes it seem to disappear, on both sides. People sit in their little bubbles and assume that they're right.
People pointing out patterns of racism/sexism/etc is not offensive. Anyone making such a claim is at worst unknowningly supporting said racism/sexism/etc.
Please counter this and tell my why black people shouldn't be allowed in comics.
And this is why people get turned off by social justice.
No, that's your interpretation of their argument. I asked where someone has openly advocated tokenism. Not where you think tokenism exists or could exist. Who is actively pushing for tokenism?Also, if you're going to insist on reading my statements out of context, there's nothing I can do to help you. Cause it doesn't matter what I say, you're going to decide to read it however you want.
If you are asking in terms of who specifically brought it up in this thread, then I can't help you there. If you are asking in context of this article, then I would suggest you read it again. As cited for example, there are whole sections of the article that talk about how the writer is trying to write a story that is both inclusive but goes above the racial/ethnic origins of the characters in order to avoid the issues of tokenism or stereotype that can plague such an attempt. I further pointed out that Marvel has done token characters to suit fads in the past. But if you choose to interpret that as not being the case, well I can't help you there either.
As for taking your "statements out of context", please feel free to tell how I am wrong. Because what I did was take your exact words verbatim and try to point out why someone else might take offense. If you can't see that or choose not to, then it doesn't matter what I say either, because any further discussion would be moot. You have a right on this forum to say what you want and respond how you like to anyone else's arguments. But that argument works both ways and does nothing to contribute to the topic. And that is what will get this thread shut down, not the question of diversity in comics.
Is anyone arguing in favor of fewer or no minorities in comics? (or other forms of media)If you truly don't care what skin color, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc of the characters, why debate the issue at all? Because all I've seen from people debating against this issue is reasons why minorities shouldn't be in comics. Is that the goal?
The problem to me in this case isn't the issue of less minorities or what their diversity is in comics. The problem is the level of sincerity and viability in its application to this case. To simply add a minority or minority team for the sake of inclusion smacks of financial political correctness and lack of artistic integrity. That is where the question about this subject (as it relates to the article) lies. As I mentioned above, when it comes to Marvel comics and the historical application of ethnic/minority/gender empowerment, this has generally been market pandering first and cultural awareness second.
So in context of the article that started this topic, it is difficult not to see it in a cynical light as an attempt by Marvel to do it again. The article tries to dismiss this notion by citing numbers and examples to say it is a legitimate attempt. But there remains a certain level of uncertainty at the end of the article. Granted it was written in May, when the new Ultimates had just come out, so how it is doing 5-6 months down the line is something I can't judge.
Some great examples of applying diversity in a sincere way that I would recommend is Robinson's JSA series, which managed to incorporate a slew of diverse characters (with minorities, ethnic, sexuality/gender, religious, and even the issues of ageism) in the series. The success of the series came in that Robinson did it by gradually incorporating all these elements in an organic way. Another series that has done a great job of it is Busiek's Astro City.
The problem is the level of sincerity and viability in its application to this case. To simply add a minority or minority team for the sake of inclusion smacks of financial political correctness and lack of artistic integrity.
If your central argument is that you question Marvel's sincerity then Alex you need to prove that they are being insincere.
Marvel has more female writers and practice more diverse hiring then they ever have. To me this shows a concerted effort to make their product more diverse without resorting to tokenism.
The problem is the level of sincerity and viability in its application to this case. To simply add a minority or minority team for the sake of inclusion smacks of financial political correctness and lack of artistic integrity.If your central argument is that you question Marvel's sincerity then Alex you need to prove that they are being insincere.
Marvel has more female writers and practice more diverse hiring then they ever have. To me this shows a concerted effort to make their product more diverse without resorting to tokenism.
He provided a list of examples from previous times they have done similar things and said they are probably doing the same thing. What other evidence could he possibly supply to back up his point that would be more credible?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the part that puzzles me in this argument.
Is anyone arguing in favor of fewer or no minorities in comics? (or other forms of media)
If you truly don't care what skin color, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc of the characters, why debate the issue at all? Because all I've seen from people debating against this issue is reasons why minorities shouldn't be in comics. Is that the goal?
I think that might be your problem here - this isn't an argument. Its not a debate. Its a discussion. I suggest you stop trying to 'win' the discussion, stop trying to prevent others from 'winning' it, and just listen to what they have to say.
This isn't a one side vs. the other kind of thing. Its people from different walks of life expressing their thoughts on a particular issue... diversity of ideas, of thought, of experience can be a double-edged sword - eventually you're bound to run into someone who's views and life experiences don't support your well-established positions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He provided a list of examples from previous times they have done similar things and said they are probably doing the same thing. What other evidence could he possibly supply to back up his point that would be more credible?
True, after scrolling up and rereading he did provide examples. That was not fair to you Alex and I apologize for not reading all your thoughts before commenting.
And BTW Monica Rambeau was a great character and deserved better than she got.
-MD
PS: I still contend that giving the influx of diversity joining the Marvel bullpen one can say they are showing a sincere effort to reach out a larger audience. Readers grow up and become creators, this tread will continue.
And BTW Monica Rambeau was a great character and deserved better than she got.
No worries then. As far as Captain Marvel Monica, on that I can totally agree.
And more to the point of the argument, I'll admit to cynicism in Marvel's efforts. But I want to be optimistic if Marvel is making efforts to be more diverse in it's characters and writers in the long run.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Using a gimmick doesn't = bad storytelling
Or more accurately, that's putting the cart before the horse. Bad storytelling is what makes something a gimmick. If you treat the so-called gimmick right, and use it to tell a good story, people don't call it a gimmick (at least not in a disparaging way). They call it fresh, or innovative, or groundbreaking.
Spider-man was a gimmick character. He's a teenage superhero with teenager problems. He was also a nerd, at a time when nerds weren't popular. That's a gimmick. However, those aspects of the character resonated with people young and old, and the book was well written, so the character succeeded. He's now one of the world's most popular superheroes, and people don't think of him as a gimmick character.
The new Ms Marvel is a Pakistani-American, and a practicing Muslim. People accused Marvel of employing gimmicks there too. But those aspects of the character are treated thoughtfully in her title, and it's sold like gangbusters (the first issue is on its seventh printing). It's one of my favorite new titles.
Rather than dismiss diversity as a gimmick, or doubt Marvel's sincerity, how about we read the titles that are coming out and see if they're any good? I'm personally luke-warm on All-New Ultimates, not because it's treating its characters' race/gender as a gimmick, but because I'm not a fan of the art, and I feel like the author hasn't found a compelling villain for the group to fight yet. Captain Marvel, also referenced in the article, has been killer. I picked up the first issue of the new Thor as well. The only thing I find annoying about that book is that they're making me wait for issue #2 to find out who the new (female) Thor is. The story itself looks like good fun.
Actually Thor #1 made it pretty obvious who took the hammer even if they didn't draw it.
Pray tell.
Coming back to this thread, I must admit that I am somewhat offended by the title, on behalf of Marvel Comics (although my only association is as a fan with a 25+ year history of reading their comics).
Especially in the last 15 years since I returned to Germany from my seven year stay in Paraguay, it has been quite noticeable that Marvel has taken care to diversify their roster of new characters, both in the aspects gender, race and sexual orientation. In about every new team of young characters (Young Avengers, New X-Men, Runaways, New Warriors, Avengers Academy, Avengers: The Initiative, the guys with Cyclops revolution team currently) the cast is very diverse in all of those aspects. Hell, Marvel has included lots characters of various nationalities and ethnicities since at least the seventies. Just look at the rosters of the New Mutants, Generation X and other X-Teams. Marvel is also rolling out new ethnically diverse solo characters all the time, like the new Ms. Marvel, Kamala Khan or in the past Anya Corazón, Araña.
So, yeah. The title could have been chosen quite better.
Coming back to this thread, I must admit that I am somewhat offended by the title, on behalf of Marvel Comics (although my only association is as a fan with a 25+ year history of reading their comics).
Especially in the last 15 years since I returned to Germany from my seven year stay in Paraguay, it has been quite noticeable that Marvel has taken care to diversify their roster of new characters, both in the aspects gender, race and sexual orientation. In about every new team of young characters (Young Avengers, New X-Men, Runaways, New Warriors, Avengers Academy, Avengers: The Initiative, the guys with Cyclops revolution team currently) the cast is very diverse in all of those aspects. Hell, Marvel has included lots characters of various nationalities and ethnicities since at least the seventies. Just look at the rosters of the New Mutants, Generation X and other X-Teams. Marvel is also rolling out new ethnically diverse solo characters all the time, like the new Ms. Marvel, Kamala Khan or in the past Anya Corazón, Araña.
So, yeah. The title could have been chosen quite better.
I was just thinking the other day that 'Giant Sized X-men' cast of the 70's was pretty culturally diverse. German, Russian, irish, Canadian, African, White, Black, men, women, the whole she-bang. First member added next, Jewish girl...
Arguably the most popular X-team ever, and the well they always run back to.
So yeah, nothing new.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can only say that's a schtick that is kept in x-comics, not something you see much outside of it. Which is the problem, really. Also, it's no longer the 70's, which is a bigger problem- the comics you remember are not the comics that are being read now, and marvel has noticably backslid. What worked as diversity in 1978 doesn't work in 2014.
I can only say that's a schtick that is kept in x-comics, not something you see much outside of it. Which is the problem, really. Also, it's no longer the 70's, which is a bigger problem- the comics you remember are not the comics that are being read now, and marvel has noticably backslid. What worked as diversity in 1978 doesn't work in 2014.
This is entirely devoid of fact checking. Marvel has most assuredly not "backslid" on their integration of ethnicities and gender orientated characters.
Let's take a look at some of the heroic new characters of the last years. I'll leave out aliens and people of really unusual skin tone (like "green", "blue", "purple" etc)
Tempo - White Australian Female
Triage - Black American Male
Morph - White American Male (possible bisexual?)
Goldballs - Hispanic American Male
Hijack - Uh, American Male. He kinda looks hispanic. Or sometimes asian. Damn that Bachalo and his artstyle.
Kymera - Black American Female
Eye Boy - White American Male
Sprite - Asian Chinese Female
Shark-Girl - Hispanic Brazilian Female
Smasher - White American Female
Star-Brand - White American Male
Nightmask - Black American(or Alien) Male
New snotnosed Nova - White American Male
I could go on, but that would involve spending an hour or so researching the different teams. I literally just poured over a list of some of the newest characters and pulled out the ones which are depicted as protagonists in books I read in the last two years. Just on that short list I came out with half the characters being of different ethnicities than "white". That may still be too many white characters for you (and I wouldn't mind a more fair ratio, either), but saying that Marvel has somehow "backslid" on introducing multiracial heroes of both genders is simply wrong.
Wasn't he the guy that turned Pittsburgh into a literal PIT?Let's take a look at some of the heroic new characters of the last years. I'll leave out aliens and people of really unusual skin tone (like "green", "blue", "purple" etc)
* **
Star-Brand - White American Male
Just a college campus with this kid. He's a new version who is firmly rooted in the 616 universe, instead of the New Universe one. And him killing those people in the 616 universe was an unwitting accident when his powers manifested.
Marvel needs Buried Alien/Fastforward to merge all the Marvel Universes into one.
(If you get this reference you win a No-Prize)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I know that when I decide what to spend my entertainment dollars on, I always try to support products that hate on the white man.
I mean seriously, who doesn't want more social justice in their entertainment?
If a product isn't blaming me and my ancestors for every perceived slight, insult, injury, or accident that has either happened or been imagined since mankind first crawled out of the ocean, I simply don't want it on my bookshelf.
Has anyone noticed that Stan Lee is an old white man? Let's replace him with Sheila Jackson Lee so we can get some real diversity in our entertainment.
So I hear a lot about diversity in race, gender, and sexuality, but is there much going on in terms of religious diversity in comics? Are there any noticeably Mormon superheroes, for instance? Or Muslim, or Hindu, or Evangelical, etc.? I don't really know comics, but in the recent movies, I can only think of the church scene in Man of Steel, and the throwaway line about God in The Avengers.
So I hear a lot about diversity in race, gender, and sexuality, but is there much going on in terms of religious diversity in comics? Are there any noticeably Mormon superheroes, for instance? Or Muslim, or Hindu, or Evangelical, etc.? I don't really know comics, but in the recent movies, I can only think of the church scene in Man of Steel, and the throwaway line about God in The Avengers.
I'll admit, if there is a overtly Mormon or Evangelical superhero at Marvel, I must have missed it. Religion is mostly underplayed in superhero comics (undoubtedly because with so many aliens and supernatural cosmic beings running around, the whole concept becomes more than a bit iffy). If a character makes a point of displaying her/his religion openly, you can be pretty sure it's a hispanic character or a muslim, though. ^^
Lots of non-powered religious wack-jobs around, though, who mostly want to kill all mutants (i.e. the Purifiers and some other groups).
The Infinity Crusade dealt with religious superheroes.
I know that when I decide what to spend my entertainment dollars on, I always try to support products that hate on the white man.
I mean seriously, who doesn't want more social justice in their entertainment?
If a product isn't blaming me and my ancestors for every perceived slight, insult, injury, or accident that has either happened or been imagined since mankind first crawled out of the ocean, I simply don't want it on my bookshelf.
Has anyone noticed that Stan Lee is an old white man? Let's replace him with Sheila Jackson Lee so we can get some real diversity in our entertainment.
Why go with perceived wrongs when there are plenty of real ones?
So I hear a lot about diversity in race, gender, and sexuality, but is there much going on in terms of religious diversity in comics? Are there any noticeably Mormon superheroes, for instance? Or Muslim, or Hindu, or Evangelical, etc.? I don't really know comics, but in the recent movies, I can only think of the church scene in Man of Steel, and the throwaway line about God in The Avengers.I think the new Ms. Marvel is a Muslim, as is Dust from the X-Men.
Dust is extremely pious, to boot.
I can only say that's a schtick that is kept in x-comics, not something you see much outside of it. Which is the problem, really. Also, it's no longer the 70's, which is a bigger problem- the comics you remember are not the comics that are being read now, and marvel has noticably backslid. What worked as diversity in 1978 doesn't work in 2014.This is entirely devoid of fact checking. Marvel has most assuredly not "backslid" on their integration of ethnicities and gender orientated characters.
And when was the last time you saw any of the characters you mentioned hanging with Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Spidey and Wolverine in a book that wasn't being put out to make Marvel side cash but was actually paying the bills- mainstream Avengers, X-Men, Spider-Man, Thor?
Not recently beyond a cameo, I'll bet.
Let's take a look at some of the heroic new characters of the last years. I'll leave out aliens and people of really unusual skin tone (like "green", "blue", "purple" etc)
Tempo - White Australian Female
Triage - Black American Male
Morph - White American Male (possible bisexual?)
Goldballs - Hispanic American Male
Hijack - Uh, American Male. He kinda looks hispanic. Or sometimes asian. Damn that Bachalo and his artstyle.
Kymera - Black American Female
Eye Boy - White American Male
Sprite - Asian Chinese Female
Shark-Girl - Hispanic Brazilian Female
Smasher - White American Female
Star-Brand - White American Male
Nightmask - Black American(or Alien) Male
New snotnosed Nova - White American Male
I could go on, but that would involve spending an hour or so researching the different teams. I literally just poured over a list of some of the newest characters and pulled out the ones which are depicted as protagonists in books I read in the last two years. Just on that short list I came out with half the characters being of different ethnicities than "white". That may still be too many white characters for you (and I wouldn't mind a more fair ratio, either), but saying that Marvel has somehow "backslid" on introducing multiracial heroes of both genders is simply wrong.
Goldballs?
Seriously?
Is his superpower making the enemy fall over laughing at his name? I mean there were a LOT of in jokes at speedballs expense, but yeesh. I want him and the spider mman whose power is shooting spiders from his wrists to team up just so I can see bank robbers go from gales of laughter to screams of terror in the same panel.
Just a college campus with this kid. He's a new version who is firmly rooted in the 616 universe, instead of the New Universe one. And him killing those people in the 616 universe was an unwitting accident when his powers manifested.Wasn't he the guy that turned Pittsburgh into a literal PIT?Let's take a look at some of the heroic new characters of the last years. I'll leave out aliens and people of really unusual skin tone (like "green", "blue", "purple" etc)
* **
Star-Brand - White American Male
HUGE NEW UNIVERSE FAN. HUGE. Very happy to hear this.
Also, tempo is black, man. Unless you're taking about a new character. I liked her in x-force as a semi reluctant villain/terrorist.
Just looked up the new universe characters.
Thanks for introducing me, magnus. Here's hoping we get to see a dp7 storyline.
I can only say that's a schtick that is kept in x-comics, not something you see much outside of it. Which is the problem, really. Also, it's no longer the 70's, which is a bigger problem- the comics you remember are not the comics that are being read now, and marvel has noticably backslid. What worked as diversity in 1978 doesn't work in 2014.This is entirely devoid of fact checking. Marvel has most assuredly not "backslid" on their integration of ethnicities and gender orientated characters.And when was the last time you saw any of the characters you mentioned hanging with Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Spidey and Wolverine in a book that wasn't being put out to make Marvel side cash but was actually paying the bills- mainstream Avengers, X-Men, Spider-Man, Thor?
Not recently beyond a cameo, I'll bet.
Yeah, well. New characters by definition need to establish themselves. I personally am also quite unhappy of how many of them are left hanging in the wind after a while. But that happens to the white kids, too, not only the ones of other ethnicities.
In the current Avengers line-up (across all major teams), there are Sunspot (Roberto DaCosta), Nightmask, White Tiger (Ava Ayala), Sunfire (Shiro Yoshina), Shang Chi, Manifold (Eden Fesi), Luke Cage, Blue Marvel (Adam Brashear), Power Man (Victor Alvarez) and, oh, yeah, Sam Wilson, the current Captain America.
Also, tempo is black, man. Unless you're taking about a new character. I liked her in x-force as a semi reluctant villain/terrorist.He meant to say Tempus if he is talking about the Australian girl.
Huh, I could have sworn it was the other way around. Anyway, I stand corrected.
Yeah, well. New characters by definition need to establish themselves. In the current Avengers line-up (across all major teams), there are Roberto DaCosta (Sunspot), Nightmask, White Tiger (Ava Ayala), Sunfire (Shiro Yoshina), Shang Chi, Manifold (Eden Fesi), Luke Cage, Blue Marvel (Adam Brashear), Power Man (Victor Alvarez) and, oh, yeah, Sam Wilson, the current Captain America.I can only say that's a schtick that is kept in x-comics, not something you see much outside of it. Which is the problem, really. Also, it's no longer the 70's, which is a bigger problem- the comics you remember are not the comics that are being read now, and marvel has noticably backslid. What worked as diversity in 1978 doesn't work in 2014.This is entirely devoid of fact checking. Marvel has most assuredly not "backslid" on their integration of ethnicities and gender orientated characters.And when was the last time you saw any of the characters you mentioned hanging with Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Spidey and Wolverine in a book that wasn't being put out to make Marvel side cash but was actually paying the bills- mainstream Avengers, X-Men, Spider-Man, Thor?
Not recently beyond a cameo, I'll bet.
Loved some of new avengers stuff, will read more. Note that you stated this is *across* the major teams, still a very good chance these characters are in the background saving civilians while the forerunners get full page splashes as they punch villain du jour in the face.
Still interested in sam as the new cap, may pick up the trade explaining this. Any idea when the trade is coming out or is it individual issues right now?
Loved some of new avengers stuff, will read more. Note that you stated this is *across* the major teams, still a very good chance these characters are in the background saving civilians while the forerunners get full page splashes as they punch villain du jour in the face.
Half of the characters I listed are in the Mighty Avengers team of Luke Cage, where they are very front and center kicking butt. Forgot to add Monika Rambeau to that list, though. Admittedly, Sunspot and Manifold have kinda kept to the background, although that seems to be changing with the new storyline, where all sorts of weird stuff is going, including a time-jump of several months. We may be heading towards some sort of reset, I fear.
Still interested in sam as the new cap, may pick up the trade explaining this. Any idea when the trade is coming out or is it individual issues right now?
Individual issues I think, the storyline is currently running.
Loved some of new avengers stuff, will read more. Note that you stated this is *across* the major teams, still a very good chance these characters are in the background saving civilians while the forerunners get full page splashes as they punch villain du jour in the face.Half of the characters I listed are in the Mighty Avengers team of Luke Cage, where they are very front and center kicking butt. Forgot to add Monika Rambeau to that list, though. Admittedly, Sunspot and Manifold have kinda kept to the background, although that seems to be changing with the new storyline, where all sorts of weird stuff is going, including a time-jump of several months. We may be heading towards some sort of reset, I fear.
Still interested in sam as the new cap, may pick up the trade explaining this. Any idea when the trade is coming out or is it individual issues right now?*sigh* marvel....
Individual issues I think, the storyline is currently running.