
Old Fighter |
Ok, we (the players) are in a juicy situation and I'm looking for advice.
First, the GM is an encyclopedia of rules and he follows them all. He will also not hesitate for a moment to wipe out the entire party.
Next, We players are all level 11, and are vets at gaming (19 years together as a team).
Fighter - specialist in combat maneuvers
Rogue - fights with a big cat and does insane dps
Ninja - that knows all kinds of "snake style" and "tiger style"
Monk - that has weird tattoo spells
Wizard - general practitioner
We are all on an Arctic plain at night in an alternate dimension with no stars or moon. The Wizard missed last game and the Gm handled it by having him overland fly back to base to get some gear. So right now he's flying back to base. We are all telepathically linked, so he is still "in network", but he's very far away.
The Wizard can teleport, but has never been where we are. Furthermore, the telepathic communication does not include sensory images so we can't send our vision to him for use as a teleportation target.
Our quest is to walk to a tower where two Lichs are residing and get a magic item from them.
At the end of the last game, one of the Lich's confronted us on the arctic plain. I negotiated with it to trade it's magical item in return for X, but negotiations fell apart and we attacked.
The init order is this:
Lich
Ninja
Monk
Rogue
Fighter
== Turn One ==
The Lich summoned up three huge air elementals.
Ninja, Monk, and Rogue attacked the air elementals.
Fighter did a full run around the elementals and towards the Lich
== Turn Two ==
The Lich attempted to cast a spell off a scroll but failed his spellcraft check (it was a public roll). It then started to run away.
Ninja, Monk, and Rogue DPS'd the elementals with varying degrees of success.
Fighter charged the Lich and tripped it (improved trip, rolled a nat 20).
== End of Game ==
The GM halted the game right there
Tonight, we will resume the fight with the same init order. I expect the Lich to do one of two things:
1. Stand up
2. Teleport away (cast while prone)
3. Something else
Our goals are:
1. Keep the Lich here
2. Defeat the Lich here
3. Continue on to it's lair and only fight the remaining Lich before the first lich is restored by it's phylactery.
4. Destroy the phylacteries, get the item, and leave.
So -
If the Lich stands, the Fighter will get a turn. On that turn he will try to grapple and pin the Lich, thus preventing somatic and material components. The Fighter will keep the Lich pinned until the DPS shows up to kill it (or he is killed by death touch)
If the Lich starts casting prone, it will provoke an attack of opportunity. The rules appear to prevent a combat maneuver as an attack of opportunity. In this case the Lich will probably escape and we'll have to fight two at once.
If the Lich does something else, well, who knows.
I'm looking for the following advice:
1. How to keep the Lich in combat with us
2. How to get the Wizard to the combat
3. How to defeat the Lich
Any ideas?

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More likely what's going to happen is the Lich is going to hit the fighter with a Quickened Bungle or Ill Omen spell followed by a paralyzing touch attack to turn the fighter into a permanent meat statue and then stand. Follow that up with a command to the air elementals to go whirlwind at ground level and pick up the rest of the party and fling them around inside the concealment of the debris it's swinging around.
Then it will finish it's turn by letting the other lich know about you guys invading their area (if you have telepathy running why shouldn't it?)
That should effectively drop all 4 of you from combat effectiveness and if any of you actually manage to avoid all 3 whirlwinds then they'll need to take on a lich solo so yeah. Good luck.

Old Fighter |
Indeed, in turn 2 one of the air elementals was already doing a whirlwind, thus temporarily incapacitating the Monk.
I, the Fighter, hadn't thought about the possibility of paralyzing touch. My only goal is to keep the Lich from casting on the DPS long enough for them to handle affairs.
And I agree that the most likely outcome will be a total wipe out. It was exactly this concern that prompted posting for help. Indeed, I wanted to negotiate with the Lich and avoid combat.
Oh well.

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with your current groups complete lack of spellcasting (arcane or divine) vs a prepared arcane lich with three huge elemental servants you have about a 95% chance of being completely trounced inside of the next 2-3 rounds.
Without a good idea of what gear, abilities and consumables you all have available the only possible option we could come up with is to surrender and throw yourself on the lich's mercy and hope for a way to escape later if it doesn't kill you immediately.
Lack of magic and being effectively outnumbered is a huge hurdle to overcome and the classes you have available are the exact opposite of what would make success possible.

wraithstrike |
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Spellcraft is not need to cast a from a scroll that is not on your spell list. UMD is.
With that said the Lich will like take an AoO by crawling away from the fighter. That will allow him to cast his spell without provoking.
He may also use Mathwei's idea. If so, you better hope that fighter rolls well, or your party is in trouble because that lich may summon more monsters before deciding to sit in the background and throw SoD or SoS spells at you.
IIRC elementals are immune to crits and sneak attack so have the ninja and rogue go help the fighter kill the lich.
PS: Lich have phylacteries so killing him will only make up very upset, and he will be back in 1d10 days, and he might bring his lich buddy.
PS2: Some combat maneuvers can be done with an AoO. Sunder works, so if he has a holy symbol or spell component pouch try to sunder that.

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If the Lich doesnt teleport away or paralize you, you can attempt to ready-action your attack and try to fizzle his spells with the damage.
If I was the Lich, I would be teleporting. By casting defensively.
It's never smart to stand and fight when surrounded. I would leave and reinitiate combat on my own terms.

Old Fighter |
with your current groups complete lack of spellcasting (arcane or divine) vs a prepared arcane lich with three huge elemental servants you have about a 95% chance of being completely trounced inside of the next 2-3 rounds.
Totally agree. I told my wife something similiar. "There's a 75% chance we wipe tonight"
Any ideas on how we can get the Wizard to us ASAP? He can teleport, but isn't familiar with this area.

Serious Frog |

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:with your current groups complete lack of spellcasting (arcane or divine) vs a prepared arcane lich with three huge elemental servants you have about a 95% chance of being completely trounced inside of the next 2-3 rounds.Totally agree. I told my wife something similiar. "There's a 75% chance we wipe tonight"
Any ideas on how we can get the Wizard to us ASAP? He can teleport, but isn't familiar with this area.
Blind teleport is dangerous but worth it anyway.

Democratus |

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:There is no way in the rules to actually remove a body part in this game without pulling in some house rules that NO ONE wants turned against them.
Try again.So I guess there's no amputees in fantasy realms lol.
And yes, there is. Called shots.
Try again.
The called shot rules do not allow the removal of body parts. Even a called shot critical/debilitating hit to a head or arm leaves everything still there. Please read the rules.

Old Fighter |
Would a Lich really need his jaw to speak? I mean, he's already pulling some Sir Fortesque stuff.
This is exactly why I considered pinning it, because I couldn't be sure that a called shot to the jaw would stop it from speaking. There's no lungs or tongue or vocal chords.
Therefore I figured if I cannot be sure of stopping the verbal component, I would pin it's hands and stop the somatic and material.

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Mathwei ap Niall wrote:There is no way in the rules to actually remove a body part in this game without pulling in some house rules that NO ONE wants turned against them.
Try again.So I guess there's no amputees in fantasy realms lol.
And yes, there is. Called shots.
Try again.
I hope your GM remembers this. And uses it against you.
*It's a house rule, not RAW.

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So you're saying that if they impair the lich beyond the point of him being a threat, lay his arm out on a stump and say "I take my greatsword to his hand until it falls off" the DM will say "Oh that's not in the rules, so it's not physically possible to do that".
There are a lot of mechanics not in the rules. Nor should they be.
Would you rule that the magic mcguffin could not be stolen with slight of hand because the player tied it to his penis (don't ask, it happened.) If you ruled this trick worked, does your campaign suddenly develop a market for penis cords?

Old Fighter |
Greater teleport solves the wizard abscence
Unfortunately he doesn't have Greater Teleport. He and I had though considered the following:
He teleports to where he left us and flies up in the air. We are 10 miles away from that spot.
We signal with some kind of huge explosion and he teleports to the explosion.
But we couldn't figure out how to create a huge fire/explosion in the Arctic plain with just the resources we have.

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Yes, they're not in the rules. It doesn't mean they shouldn't or don't exist.
But answer me that. Say you're running a game and a player says that. How would you handle it?
I see no reason why you couldn't slip it off his package. It would be harder than a simple pickpocket, but certainly possible.
I made the ruling that slight of hand still worked. There is nothing in RAW that allowed that trick to work. The player permanently quit the campaign.
In your case I would rule no removal of limbs. There is nothing in RAW that allows your trick to work.

Roran Strax |

So what would happen if I took a razor sharp weapon and had somebody hold his arm down, then proceeded to hack in the same position at his wrist? Would the damage magically accumulate to his health bar like a video game?
@Old Fighter. I would say give your wizard the best description you can and have him teleport. Otherwise it's going to be very hard to pin down a lich run by a well-read GM.

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So what would happen if I took a razor sharp weapon and had somebody hold his arm down, then proceeded to hack in the same position at his wrist? Would the damage magically accumulate to his health bar like a video game?
Yes.
And then his body would magically reform over the next couple of days.
There are game systems with location specific damage. Pathfinder is not one of them.

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Serious Frog wrote:Greater teleport solves the wizard abscenceUnfortunately he doesn't have Greater Teleport. He and I had though considered the following:
He teleports to where he left us and flies up in the air. We are 10 miles away from that spot.
We signal with some kind of huge explosion and he teleports to the explosion.
But we couldn't figure out how to create a huge fire/explosion in the Arctic plain with just the resources we have.
I'm going to advise you to have the wizard do nothing at all, just wait.
If your party lucks out and manages to defeat the Lich then good for you/ BUT when you don't and it kills you and leaves you laid out on the ice it would be nice to have someone alive to come collect your bodies and take you somewhere to be raised from the dead.Call it an insurance policy.

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That's terribly uncreative and short minded. Why play an RPG instead of a video game if there's not some creative measures allowed?
Oh, so you want your GM to have the next creature you fight to politely chop off your arm/jaw now? The no decapitation or called shot to remove limbs is there to protect the players more then the monsters. Once you all put that on the table expect your GM to start removing parts from you now.
It's a game and it's there to keep it a game.

fretgod99 |

I feel like I'm missing something. Why did the Elementals pop up during the first round of combat? Shouldn't they have appeared just before the Lich's turn in Round 2? I suppose it could have used a Quicken Metamagic Rod, but it seems unlikely. It would have done something else if that were the case.

Old Fighter |
I feel like I'm missing something. Why did the Elementals pop up during the first round of combat? Shouldn't they have appeared just before the Lich's turn in Round 2? I suppose it could have used a Quicken Metamagic Rod, but it seems unlikely. It would have done something else if that were the case.
It had a held spell that it cast and held at the end of negotiations.

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Grendel says Hi.
Yes, a special Unique (and insanely overpowered compared to it's mythos) creature with a special ability not available to creatures normally.
There is the Vorpal weapon effect and back in the day there were Swords of Sharpness which worked like Vorpal weapons, only they removed a limb... only there was no additional effect save that, "Look ma, no hand! Or foot...". But those were done away with.

fretgod99 |

fretgod99 wrote:I feel like I'm missing something. Why did the Elementals pop up during the first round of combat? Shouldn't they have appeared just before the Lich's turn in Round 2? I suppose it could have used a Quicken Metamagic Rod, but it seems unlikely. It would have done something else if that were the case.It had a held spell that it cast and held at the end of negotiations.
My brain is failing me today. I'm not sure what rules you're referencing here.
Regardless, that part's done with anyway. So I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Roran Strax |

Roran Strax wrote:That's terribly uncreative and short minded. Why play an RPG instead of a video game if there's not some creative measures allowed?Oh, so you want your GM to have the next creature you fight to politely chop off your arm/jaw now? The no decapitation or called shot to remove limbs is there to protect the players more then the monsters. Once you all put that on the table expect your GM to start removing parts from you now.
It's a game and it's there to keep it a game.
That's fine. It's realistic. It's fair.

aegrisomnia |
As an 11th level fighter, you should have a few tricks up your sleeve - feats or magic items that let you do stuff besides take an AoO (which everybody gets) and grapple (again, everybody). You say you have Improved Trip (which implies you also have Combat Expertise)... there might be something hiding in the other dozen or so feats an 11th-level human fighter ought to have.
For instance, as somebody else pointed out, sundering the spell component pouch as part of an AoO could work. It depends on this guy's stats, but there's still a chance he's going to fail his concentration check if he tries to teleport away (not a great chance, but a chance).
Tentatively, my money'd say...
- if he tries to crawl away, sunder his spell component pouch
- if he tries to cast defensively, let him
- if he eats an AoO to cast, hit him
- if he attacks... let him. A fighter should have a decent shot at resisting a paralyzing touch, if anybody does.
Otherwise, just fighting as hard as you can is really all that can be expected of you. If it's to be a TPK, then you might as well go out swinging.

Old Fighter |
As an 11th level fighter, you should have a few tricks up your sleeve - feats or magic items that let you do stuff besides take an AoO (which everybody gets) and grapple (again, everybody). You say you have Improved Trip (which implies you also have Combat Expertise)... there might be something hiding in the other dozen or so feats an 11th-level human fighter ought to have.
For instance, as somebody else pointed out, sundering the spell component pouch as part of an AoO could work. It depends on this guy's stats, but there's still a chance he's going to fail his concentration check if he tries to teleport away (not a great chance, but a chance).
Tentatively, my money'd say...
- if he tries to crawl away, sunder his spell component pouch
- if he tries to cast defensively, let him
- if he eats an AoO to cast, hit him
- if he attacks... let him. A fighter should have a decent shot at resisting a paralyzing touch, if anybody does.Otherwise, just fighting as hard as you can is really all that can be expected of you. If it's to be a TPK, then you might as well go out swinging.
Thanks, I appreciate the ray of hope. I do have improved trip, disarm, etc, etc, .. Many improved (combat manoeuvres). I forget off the top of my head. I'm old.
I like the idea of a called shot against his spell pouch. That's a great idea.
I think I'll follow your suggestions.

revaar |

aegrisomnia wrote:As an 11th level fighter, you should have a few tricks up your sleeve - feats or magic items that let you do stuff besides take an AoO (which everybody gets) and grapple (again, everybody). You say you have Improved Trip (which implies you also have Combat Expertise)... there might be something hiding in the other dozen or so feats an 11th-level human fighter ought to have.
For instance, as somebody else pointed out, sundering the spell component pouch as part of an AoO could work. It depends on this guy's stats, but there's still a chance he's going to fail his concentration check if he tries to teleport away (not a great chance, but a chance).
Tentatively, my money'd say...
- if he tries to crawl away, sunder his spell component pouch
- if he tries to cast defensively, let him
- if he eats an AoO to cast, hit him
- if he attacks... let him. A fighter should have a decent shot at resisting a paralyzing touch, if anybody does.Otherwise, just fighting as hard as you can is really all that can be expected of you. If it's to be a TPK, then you might as well go out swinging.
Thanks, I appreciate the ray of hope. I do have improved trip, disarm, etc, etc, .. Many improved (combat manoeuvres). I forget off the top of my head. I'm old.
I like the idea of a called shot against his spell pouch. That's a great idea.
I think I'll follow your suggestions.
Second the targeting his component pouch, assuming he is a wizard and not a sorcerer of course. You could also try to use your AoO from his casting to disarm him of the material components he is using to cast his spell.

Zog of Deadwood |

The lich will almost certainly cast on the defensive, which will not provoke an AoO. Assuming it does not successfully kill you all or Dimension Door or Teleport away on its initiative (which comes before any of you get an action, I would recommend that one or two of you sacrifice your action this round to ready an attack to disrupt the lich's casting next round. At that point your initiative and that of the lich will be identical, so unless it has Quickened spells it will hopefully be shut down.
But if I were that lich, I'd get out of Dodge now while the getting is good.

Samasboy1 |

Yes, a special Unique (and insanely overpowered compared to it's mythos) creature with a special ability not available to creatures normally.
There is the Vorpal weapon effect and back in the day there were Swords of Sharpness which worked like Vorpal weapons, only they removed a limb... only there was no additional effect save that, "Look ma, no hand! Or foot...". But those were done away with.
Just pointing out that there are rules for limb removal. And in fact, as you point out, that it takes such a special ability for him to dismember his opponents points that it shouldn't be something you can just do whenever.