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Well, which one fits your style more?
Don't compare yourself to any of the others, just keep in mind contributing to the group and just enjoying your character for what it is. A lot of forum-goers on here will usually bring up some kind of Fighter comparison/argument because "ermergerd dermage!" is apparently the only point in existence. You already have a Fighter in your group, no need for another - Unless that fits your style.
I can certainly tell you that Monks and Rogues aren't big damage dealers, if that's what you're looking for.
Edit: I'm more of a Monk specialist myself, so I can certainly recommend Monk builds and/or Archetypes. For the Rogue, there aren't really many variations between their Archetypes from what it seems, so I could probably help with that too. The only real tricky thing with them is ensuring Sneak Attack.
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Either will work with this party make up. Rogue will do lots of damage. The monk will be better off on the saves, ac, and immunities department.
I recommend either a straight Dragon Style Qinggong monk or Prestige class Champion of the Enlightened. The second one is like a Monk/paladin that can smite both evil and chaos. Seems like a pretty cool PrC.
Rise of the Runelords his Heavy Combat. And at later levels you will be fighting a lot of Giants, Wizards types, Dragons, and outsiders. Smite is amazing in this campaign as a source of damage. Mobility will help as you don't want to trade blows or take full attacks from creatures with such high strength. The front Line is going to take a beating. Here is what I suggest for rise of the runelords:
Archer Paladin>Paladin>Switch Hitter Ranger>Inquisitor>Monk>Rogue
Remember how I said it is combat heavy? Well an Archer paladin can start his full smite attacks without needing to close for damage. He safely can soften up a target and if it makes it close to the group the Fighter with his limited mobility can step between it and the group. 1 full attack smite should bring most big enemies close to death.
If you want to go with the classic need 2 front liner strategy (this needs to be rethought) then I recommend paladin with smite+lay on hands+super saves to keep you alive. Grab a longsword/shield and feat up Vital Strike line and focus on Long sword damage and try to take some of the hits for your Lower AC 2 handed Fighter.
Also after level 9 you should invest in mitigation like Blur potions or a wand of Mirror image and the UMD skill. (great on a paladin which have good CHA) You will be facing Monsters who can hit AC 40+ pretty easy and does massive damage with full attacks...stay mobile and avoid trading full attack. (reason for vital strike line)
With that party yes. But frankly you're still going to play second fiddle to the fighter, are you okay with that?
In combat, maybe, though both can hold their own. Out of combat, the rogue will run circles around the fighter, and while the cleric or wizard has more powerful options the rogue will be able to do more things reliably without expending resources. The monk . . . well, qinggong?
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A Dex-based Dervish Dance Hungry Ghost with a dip of cleric for Crusader's Flurry is a pretty powerful front liner. They will have good damage when using flurry, self healing/ki recharge from crits, good saves, and high AC.
You can do it without the cleric dip if you were willing to use an 19-20 weapon, but the 18-20 range on scimitar and dervish dance makes hungry ghost really shine.
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Either will work with this party make up. Rogue will do lots of damage. The monk will be better off on the saves, ac, and immunities department.
I recommend either a straight Dragon Style Qinggong monk or Prestige class Champion of the Enlightened. The second one is like a Monk/paladin that can smite both evil and chaos. Seems like a pretty cool PrC.
Rise of the Runelords his Heavy Combat. And at later levels you will be fighting a lot of Giants, Wizards types, Dragons, and outsiders. Smite is amazing in this campaign as a source of damage. Mobility will help as you don't want to trade blows or take full attacks from creatures with such high strength. The front Line is going to take a beating. Here is what I suggest for rise of the runelords:
Archer Paladin>Paladin>Switch Hitter Ranger>Inquisitor>Monk>Rogue
Remember how I said it is combat heavy? Well an Archer paladin can start his full smite attacks without needing to close for damage. He safely can soften up a target and if it makes it close to the group the Fighter with his limited mobility can step between it and the group. 1 full attack smite should bring most big enemies close to death.
If you want to go with the classic need 2 front liner strategy (this needs to be rethought) then I recommend paladin with smite+lay on hands+super saves to keep you alive. Grab a longsword/shield and feat up Vital Strike line and focus on Long sword damage and try to take some of the hits for your Lower AC 2 handed Fighter.Also after level 9 you should invest in mitigation like Blur potions or a wand of Mirror image and the UMD skill. (great on a paladin which have good CHA) You will be facing Monsters who can hit AC 40+ pretty easy and does massive damage with full attacks...stay mobile and avoid trading full attack. (reason for vital strike line)
I'll better avoid the paladin because al of our party is always trying to be very chaotic and i dont want problems with roleplaying and stuff like that.
But aybe from a different angle a Ranger can suit the party, do you think a switch hitter or full archer can do better?
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Monk can, with access to enough books, make a good front liner on its own. Evangelist only makes it easier. The +hit is more valuable to you than to a fighter
Rogue still has problems. The evangelist helps you hit, but you're still fragile. Weak will and fortitude saves suck. Your AC will suck.
On the other hand this party needs skills pretty badly.
If you want to be an effective front liner you should probably go monk. Possibly Sohei, so you can use a longbow when melee isn't an option and take it as your second weapon training.
Hey Atarlost, why is Sohei the best front liner monk?
Because weapon training lets them compensate for twf penalties I assume. They should hit as reliably as a fighter with more attacks but less damage per hit. The ability to wear armor makes a mithril breastplate viable etc.
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Ignore the second post and ignore the comments pertaining to low damage. If you want a high damage monk with good accuracy, there are a host of ways to make them, just be prepared to make some sacrifices as the class is inherently defensive, not offensive. But you can make a monk do more or less whatever you want.
If you make a rogue you have quite a few options but you suffer similar issues with the monk. Your ac does not have to be terrible on a rogue. In fact, rogues can get obnoxiously difficult to kill with the right feats and rogue talents. If damage dealing is your game you can aim for two or subdual damage machines, though rogues are flexible enough to use two handers also. Go with whatever flavor you want to taste.
My main suggestion is to optimize what you are trying to do and decide what play style you want to have. The monk is far tougher but the rogue can do some neat survival tricks if being tough is your goal. They just have to work harder and wait lpponger to get their survival (but some of it is way cool). Both class can deal stupid amounts of damage. But the rogue sacrifices less to fulfill this criteria but has more restrictions to do it. Out of combat the rogue is going to be really useful. A wizard, regardless of int, is not going to be a rogue. If you play a rogue, wealth will be one of your primary assets. Other class use wealth as a standard but for rogues wealth feels like a necessary class feature, to me. A poor rogue compared to a poor version of most other classes is a sad thing, indeed.
I'm interested in how you make a rogue difficult to kill. Seriously. My primary PFS character is a rogue, and I'd rather emphasize defense than offense.
first off: HAHAHAHAHAHA--
*cough*
in all seriousness, if you're willing to dip for a more stable base, a few things:
are you aiming for punchy-fisty monk or weapons monk, and are you aiming for sneaky-stabby rogue or the more skill-based kind?
either way, for monks:
-zen archer is fine as-is
-tetori (with proper build) is fine as-is
-fighter (weapon master) 3 / monk (hungry ghost/sacred mountain/qinggong)17 unarmed is workable if you grab dragon style/ferocity and elemental fist
-crusader cleric 1 / monk 19 weapon monk is rather wis-centric, and if you go with that one asian deity you can flurry with a katana (and get a power to smack incorporeals).
i threw a bunch of builds together in this doc a while back.
For rogues, they're a tough bunch to work right in a combat situation. generally you wanna either play a slayer/investigator/ninja, or pick a way to get SA off reliably (feinting, stealth abuse, wand abuse, flanking, etc.) and focus on that so hard it combusts. otherwise you're just going to lag behind in combat, which isnt a fun feeling.
conveniently, i also have another doc with an example build here that fits the dextrous/clever rogue types and gains abilities later to become self-reliant (flanking with himself for easy SA, HiPS everywhere, etc.)
Seconding the Zen Archer. Ranged support is a nice thing to have and the Zen Archer is really freaking good.
I'd avoid making something designed to just do a lot of damage, that's pretty much all the Fighter is good for so if you build for that then either A) the Fighter is going to make you look silly and unneeded or B) the Fighter will be poorly built enough that you will exceed it and make the Fighter look silly and unneeded.
A Maneuver Master is another good option to do something that your party isn't getting otherwise; I'm sure that your Fighter would appreciate some prone opponents to wail on. If you're willing to play a Halfling (or a Human with Racial Heritage) then you can stack it with Underfoot Adept and those giants that IIRC tend to be quite common in that scenario are suddenly very vulnerable to your trip maneuvers.
Tiny post: If you are going Rogue get the feat "Gang Up" as soon as you can afford. Reliable flanking becomes easier!
Question, is the evangelist the archetype or evangelist the PrC? and if it's the PrC is he going to be a battle cleric or a caster cleric?
I would go monk before rogue as they are more suvivable and you can't inflict damage if you're dead...or anything else for that matter.
Also ninjas are close to a rogue but better.
Zen Archer to have a ranged focus character or the switch hitter ranger would work.
If you wanted a front line monk you could look at making a dwarven monk (Sacred Mountain archetype for flavor).
- The Hatred racial ability gives +1 attack vs orcs and goblinoids.
- The defensive training nets you +4 ac vs giants.
- Grab the Blooded regional trait (Mindspin mountains) for +1 damage vs. giants, goblins, and orcs
- Grab the Monster Hunter campaign trait for the +1 attack and damage vs. abberations and magical beasts.
= So you'd get a +1 to hit and/or damage vs most enemies you'll meet in RotRL, +4 vs giants (also in the AP). That +1 to hit helps overcome the lower BAB of the monk (or the - from the flurry).
There's also the Dwarven Hardy racial ability + Monk saves + Steel Soul feat to be a monster with your saving throws.
have you considered at all possibly making pseudo-rogue?
an urban ranger gets lots of useful roguish skills, a little magic, an animal companion (if you want it), and is tougher and more reliable in combat. plus the urban archetype stacks with a surprising number of other archetypes if you want to customize further (a guide/skirmisher/urban ranger would definitely have a pretty roguish feel).
another thing to consider might be an alchemist... the vivisectionist is pretty roguish- they get less skills but gain extracts (which probably more than makes up for it), plus mutagens to boost their combat ability (and cognatogens, if they take the discovery, to boost mental-based skills).
an archaeologist bard is also very roguish... they don't get sneak attack or a full BAB (so their expected damage output is lower than the 1st 2 suggestions), but archaeologists luck is handy in combat (and even more so with the fate's favored trait). they also get trapfinding and rogue talents, with lots of skills and some secondary casting (and item use) in case one of your main casters goes down. the sandman archetype gets a nice bonus to some very roguish skills and some sneak attack but i just don't like it (ymmv).
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This whole discussion on trapfinding...the OP said this is for Rise of the Runelords. You will come across a max of 10-12 traps the entire Adventure Path.
You can spot traps with a perception check. You don't have to disable the traps you can choose to go around it. So now what rogue skills did I not cover...Oh yeah rogues blow balls and will be useless this campaign from book 5+ unless your DM is going to baby you and present everything in a manner you can sneak attack it. Other then that good luck with the mages, giants, dragons, and outsiders that will own a rogue in the flick of a finger.
I would worry less on Trapfinding and Disable Device and just forget the rogue existed.
I would do something that is good at range. A Zen archer, Paladin Archer, Switch hitter or archer ranger/slayer. Heck even a archer bard would do well. I would avoid being hit by the baddies as much as possible they hurt.
I'm rather partial to the Crane Style weapon monk, even if Crane Style no longer auto-deflects; on the upside they no longer have to 'hit' you to trigger a riposte action, they just have to miss on the attack you chose to get +4AC on on top of the +5 you already got from dodge and Crane Style.
Assuming you don't go the flurry-in-armor route or build for more wisdom, by level 8 you can still be getting something like:
+2(monk) +1(dodge) +1(dex) +2(wis) +3(barkskin);
Crane Style +4, Crane Wing +4 more vs 1 hit.
...and that's without any gear. You also get to have nice saves, add your monk/wisdom armor bonus to your CMD, and move at least your full racial movement.
I'm biased though, I think its pretty awesome to have a character making up to 5 two-handed full-bab power attacks a round plus a riposte.
If you try to melee as a Monk o Rogue in RotRL, past book 1.....you're gonna have a bad time.
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I would go monk before rogue as they are more suvivable and you can't inflict damage if you're dead...or anything else for that matter.
Also ninjas are close to a rogue but better.
"Q. What's the name of that ninja who dissed the 'blockbuster' wizard?
A. Dunwell!
(Ninjas forfeit Evasion. Monks are nice, but they don't do traps; and you can't use one to make a warslinger sap-master...speaking of guys who could take a wizard in one.)
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Thx a lot for all the replies, to be honest with all the coments that i have here and all the information u guys got me decided to be a Archer Ranger with boon companion to make my Allosaurus more combat oriented
Here's the build, what dou you guys think of the build?
Prometeus
Male Human Ranger 5
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +1 shield, +4 Dex)
hp 70 (5d10+20)
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +4
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee masterwork greatsword +8 (2d6+3/19-20) and
masterwork cold iron spiked gauntlet +8 (1d4+2) and
+1 shortsword +8 (1d6+3/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +11 (1d8+8/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (giants +4, undead +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +3):
1st—gravity bow, hunter's howl (DC 12)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 22
Feats Boon Companion, Deadly Aim, Endurance, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits finding haleen, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +7 (+3 jump), Climb +8, Disable Device +6, Escape Artist +4, Handle Animal +8, Heal +7, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4 (+6 to navigate underground), Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (nature) +4, Perception +12, Ride +7, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +11, Survival +8 (+10 to track, +10 to avoid becoming lost when using this), Swim +7
Languages Common
SQ combat styles (archery), favored terrain (underground +2), hunter's bonds (hunter's bond [animal companion]), track, wild empathy +3
Combat Gear cold iron arrows (50), potion of cure light wounds (2), silver arrows (25), healer's kit; Other Gear +1 hide armor, masterwork buckler, +1 composite longbow, +1 shortsword, masterwork greatsword, masterwork cold iron spiked gauntlet, belt of incredible dexterity +2, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +1, sihedron medallion, air bladder (3), backpack, masterwork, climber's kit, compass, grappling hook, masterwork tool, powder, signal whistle, silent whistle, snorkel, masterwork, thieves' tools, masterwork, vial (10), weapon cord, 209 gp
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Aspect of the Falcon (Constant) - 0/0
Cold Iron arrows - 0/50
False Life (1/day) - 0/1
Healer's kit - 0/10
Potion of cure light wounds - 0/2
silver arrows - 0/25
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Special Abilities
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Boon Companion (Animal Companion) +4 levels to calc familiar/animal comp abilities (max of your HD).
Compass +2 circumstance for Survival or Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to avoid becoming lost.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Favored Enemy (Giants +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Giants).
Favored Enemy (Undead +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Underground +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Track +2 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Weapon cord Attached weapon can be recovered as a swift action.
Wild Empathy +3 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Heres the Allosaurus build
Earl
Male Allosaurus
N Medium animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +6
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, +6 natural)
hp 45 (+5)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +3
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +4 (1d6+4) and
2 claws +4 (1d4+4)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 18
Feats Armor Proficiency (Light), Power Attack, Toughness
Tricks Attack, Attack, Attack Any Target, Combat Riding, Come, Come, Defend, Defend, Down, Guard, Guard, Heel, Track
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+9 jump), Climb +4, Perception +6, Stealth +5, Swim +4
SQ attack any target, combat riding, come, defend, guard, track
Other Gear chain shirt
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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-none-
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Special Abilities
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Attack Any Target [Trick] The animal will attack any creature on command.
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Come [Trick] The animal will come to you on command.
Defend [Trick] The animal will defend you.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Guard [Trick] The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Track [Trick] The animal will track a scent.
Well you could do Zen Archer too
@Prometeus
Make sure your DM is ok with you getting an allosaurus.
Try running
-Archeologist bard
-Urban Ranger
-"Vivisectionist" "Trap Breaker" Alchemist
Instead of rogue. They all can trapfind and disable as well or better than a rogue. Heck the Archeologist bard gets half his level to perception checks PERIOD, not just to ones vs traps. They are all more reliable in combat too and are either better at skills (Bard,Alchemist) or half only slightly less (Ranger).
What did you want the monk to to?
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Try running
-Archeologist bard
-Urban Ranger
-"Vivisectionist" "Trap Breaker" AlchemistInstead of rogue. They all can trapfind and disable as well or better than a rogue. Heck the Archeologist bard gets half his level to perception checks PERIOD, not just to ones vs traps. They are all more reliable in combat too and are either better at skills (Bard,Alchemist) or half only slightly less (Ranger).
What did you want the monk to to?
The urban Ranger works with this AP? wich favored community can i take? Varisia?
Also i was in the conclusion that there are like 10 traps in all the AP, so besides trapfinding is the abilities replaced are really that great for RotRl AP?
Oh for whatever reason I thought you valued Trapfinding! Oops my bad.
Yeah Go with that Ranger build you posted up thread and have fun bro!