Context: So I've been converting an old 3.5 greyhawk campaign over to Golarion/Pathfinder campaign. Up to now, it's been remarkably smooth sailing. Replace "Greyhawk" with "Magnamar", the "Southern Swamp" to "The Mushfens", etc
However, I ran into a problem when converting the religions. Some of them were easy; Sarenrae is more-or-less a gender swapped (and, in my opinion much imporved) Pelor, Heironeous is Iomedae, etc.
However, two deities have thus far illuded translation; St. Cuthbert and Corellon Larenthian. The later of the two is a minor issue as the gods religion plays no part in the game, but St. Cuthbert's religion played a somewhat more significant role.
So, question: Who do you think is St. Cuthbert's equivalent for Golarion? Currently I'm looking at Irori but the fit is extremely limited and based almost entirely on the alignment similarities. My current list for conversions is as follows:
Heironeous = Iomedae
Moradin = Torag
Yondalla = Abadar
Ehlonna = Erastil
Garl Glittergold = Shelyn
Pelor = Sarenrae
Corellon Larenthian = Cayden Cailean
Kord = Gorum
Wee Jas = Pharisma
St. Cuthbert = Irori
Boccob = Nethys
Fharlanghn = Desna
Obad-Hai = Gozreh
Olidammara = Calistria
Hextor = Asmodeus
Nerull = Urgathoa
Vecna = Norgorber
Erythnul = Rovagug & Lamashtu
Gruumsh = Zon-Kuthon
Maybe wait for inner sea gods for a few more options?
Not sure about some of he demihuman gods like Yondalla, glittergold, corellon, fharlanghn
and gruumsh.
The others seem fine.
Maybe wait for inner sea gods for a few more options?
Not sure about some of he demihuman gods like Yondalla, glittergold, corellon, fharlanghn
and gruumsh.The others seem fine.
I mostly used the other aspects of the dieties to figure out the demihuman specific deities (i.e. fharlanghn was a god of travelers and therefore Desna made sense as a rough equivalent.
My main concern is with St. Cuthbert who's going from the god of righteous retribution to the god of self-perfection. Makes some of the tenets of the faith... odd.
So why can't you just introduce St. Cuthbert into Golarion?
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honestly I think St. Cuthbert's Gorlarion equivalent would be Abadar considering they're both the primary deities associated with law
So why can't you just introduce St. Cuthbert into Golarion?
Mostly personal preference. I'd rather not have to explain the faith of St. Cuthbert to my players (who've never played 3.5). Besides that, there's a certain degree of fun in finding out which gods relate to each other.
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While he's not a full god in Pathfinder, I think Ragathiel is a decent analog for St Cuthbert.
Yondalla = Chaldira Zuzaristan
Ehlonna = Erastil
Garl Glittergold = Shelyn
Pelor = Sarenrae
Corellon Larenthian = Findeladlara, Yuelral
Kord = Gorum
Wee Jas = Pharisma
St. Cuthbert = Abadar
Boccob = Nethys
Fharlanghn = Alseta
Obad-Hai = Gozreh, Green Faith
Olidammara = Calistria
Hextor = Asmodeus
Nerull = Urgathoa
Vecna = Norgorber
Erythnul = Lamashtu
Gruumsh = Rovagug
Garl Glittergold = Nivi Rhombodazzle
Chaldira and Yondalla may not be a perfect match, but they're both good-aligned halfling gods.
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It honestly depends on what criteria your analogue is. In terms of dogma and philosophy, St. Cuthbert's closely related to Erastil, focusing largely on common sense, the needs of the community and family, dedication to a "proper" way of doing things, etc. In terms of the idea of a mortal turned god, then his closest analogue is Iomedae, as she's the closest in terms of alignment and personality.
If you are going with the 3.5 interpretation of St. Cuthbert, Erastil would be your closest bet. Having read both SKR's write-up on St. Cuthbert from Dragon Magazine & his write-up on Erastil in the Adventrue Path line & Inner Sea Gods, the parallels are strong.
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Y'know...St. Cuthbert's mace canonically exists in the Golarionverse as of Artifacts and Legends. He shouldn't be too far behind, if one really wants him. :)
Personally, I kind of find Erastil filling his role as far as personality goes. The "grumpy old man" god, so to speak.
edit-NINJA'D
Y'know...St. Cuthbert's mace canonically exists in the Golarionverse as of Artifacts and Legends. He shouldn't be too far behind, if one really wants him. :)
Personally, I kind of find Erastil filling his role as far as personality goes. The "grumpy old man" god, so to speak.
Maybe Cuthbert IS Erastil, just several millenia down the road...
Maybe Cuthbert IS Erastil, just several millenia down the road...Y'know...St. Cuthbert's mace canonically exists in the Golarionverse as of Artifacts and Legends. He shouldn't be too far behind, if one really wants him. :)
Personally, I kind of find Erastil filling his role as far as personality goes. The "grumpy old man" god, so to speak.
Then, when Paizo launches Pathfinder: 2nd Edition we find out Golarion was just Greyhawk, just 10,000 years and an apocalypse later and Aroden was one of the 3.5 iconic characters :p
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honestly I think St. Cuthbert's Gorlarion equivalent would be Abadar considering they're both the primary deities associated with law
Seconded - it might even be Asmodeus, or one of the more puritanical Archdevils beneath Him.
I would not go with Irori - aside from the "god of monks" spiel, Irori as described has nothing to vouch for His being Lawful Neutral (as opposed to St. Cuthbert, for whom the shoe fits very well), and other than that, the two powers have nothing in common.
Another good option is Lissala.
Otherwise, working off your list:
- Despite the slight alignment shift, I'd definitely say Olidammara is Cayden Cailean.
- Corellon Larethian is likewise better as Calistria, but still imperfect; He'd be better as Desna, or Yuelral.
- Andoletta is a pretty good conversion for Yondalla. For totally different reasons, so is Chaldira Zuzaristan.
- Casting Norgorber as the heir to Vecna has its merits, but on second thought, I'd say Vecna (the first lich of the Greyhawk cosmology, if I'm not mistaken) would be at least as well-off replaced by Urgathoa, the first undead being of Golarion.
- With Urgathoa inheriting the mantle of Vecna, I'd shift the mantle of Nerull to Charon, or even the Oinodaemon. In an imperfect pinch, you could also just give the Nerull mantle to Norgorber, specifically the Father Skinsaw and Blackfingers aspects. Actually, one of your best choices (aside from being a 'demotion' in power) is probably Zyphus.
- Shelyn is a good choice for inheritor to Garl Glittergold; Nivi Rhombodazzle is another.
- Sinashakti is a good alternative to Desna for the mantle of Fharlanghn.
honestly I think St. Cuthbert's Gorlarion equivalent would be Abadar considering they're both the primary deities associated with lawSeconded - it might even be Asmodeus, or one of the more puritanical Archdevils beneath Him.
I would not go with Irori - aside from the "god of monks" spiel, Irori as described has nothing to vouch for His being Lawful Neutral (as opposed to St. Cuthbert, for whom the shoe fits very well), and other than that, the two powers have nothing in common.
Another good option is Lissala.
Otherwise, working off your list:
- Despite the slight alignment shift, I'd definitely say Olidammara is Cayden Cailean.
- Corellon Larethian is likewise better as Calistria, but still imperfect; He'd be better as Desna, or Yuelral.
- Andoletta is a pretty good conversion for Yondalla. For totally different reasons, so is Chaldira Zuzaristan.
- Casting Norgorber as the heir to Vecna has its merits, but on second thought, I'd say Vecna (the first lich of the Greyhawk cosmology, if I'm not mistaken) would be at least as well-off replaced by Urgathoa, the first undead being of Golarion.
- With Urgathoa inheriting the mantle of Vecna, I'd shift the mantle of Nerull to Charon, or even the Oinodaemon. In an imperfect pinch, you could also just give the Nerull mantle to Norgorber, specifically the Father Skinsaw and Blackfingers aspects. Actually, one of your best choices (aside from being a 'demotion' in power) is probably Zyphus.
- Shelyn is a good choice for inheritor to Garl Glittergold; Nivi...
Alot of these seem pretty reasonable but I'm not sure I agree with the whole Vecna = Urgathoa thing. I can see where you get it, but Urgathoa just aligns with Nerull so well in my mind (both being their respective worlds Grim Reaper is a huge boon).
I went with Vecna = Norgorber because of their shared love of secrets.
Side Note: anyone think its kinda odd how little Vecna is involved with undeath; despite being one of the major undead gods? I always seemed to encounter his faithful as "seekers of secrets" rather than Liches/Necromancers.
Anyway; thanks for the help!
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maybe I am alone in this but would Irori make sense as an analog to St. Cuthbert? The whole self-perfection idea?
I've never really read "self-perfection" being something St. Cuthbert was keen on. It was more about common sense and practical matters. That's part of what draws me to compare him more to Erastil. Both would likely view the enlightenment seeking of monks as selfish and a waste of time.
Cuthbert is closer to Erastil than Ehlonna IMO. Curmudgeonly old man, Lawful, fairly good, community and rural focused. Cuthbert is more a platemail cleric for farming communities than a wilderness hunter like Erastil, but they both look out for the same people in the same way and approach things fairly similarly with similar views. Switch Cuthbert from cleric to Ranger and you are good to go.
Erastil and Ehlonna are both nature archer gods of the forests with animal affinities and you would peg them both as ranger class beings, but they are fairly different on outlook with Ehlonna being eternally young and elven/fairy oriented with unicorns and chaos and female while Erastil is conservative and lawful with a big human family and rustic community orientation and solidly male and old.
Irori is very similar to the monk psionics Bakluni goddess Xan Yae. She is arabic instead of Indian, female instead of male, nonascended versus self ascended, and has shadow and balance attributes, but she is the big self perfection and monk goddess of Greyhawk as Irori is for Golarion.
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My litmus test for St. Cuthbert-Erastil is "Can one easily imagine both gods manifesting as Red Forman?" ;)
Inquisitor Of Erastil: "I've been sent here by my god to put my foot in your ass."
Inquisitor of St Cuthbert: "I've been sent here by my god to put my foot in your ass."
He's right, it tracks.
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My litmus test for St. Cuthbert-Erastil is "Can one easily imagine both gods manifesting as Red Forman?" ;)Inquisitor Of Erastil: "I've been sent here by my god to put my foot in your ass."
Inquisitor of St Cuthbert: "I've been sent here by my god to put my foot in your ass."
He's right, it tracks.
holy word/dictum: "Dumbass!"
Well crap, now I need to rewatch That 70s Show... Thanks a lot Mikaze...
No, seriously, thanks. I'd forgotten how much I love that show until right now :P
honestly you could just use St Cuthbert his club is in the artifact book
I agree that Erastil is the best analogue to St Cuthbert.
The aligment isn't a problem, If I recall correctly, the Dragon Magazine article SKR did for St Cuthbert changed him to Lawfu Good.
Changed him back, really.
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A few differences from my perspective:
(FUN exercise!)
St Cuthbert = Erastil
Zuoken = Irori (kung fu-grip god)
Incabulus = Urgothoa (plague)
Kord = Cayden Cailean (adventerous, lucky, brash -- but this may be more my perspective than general GH canon)
Mayaheine = Iomedae (they are so identical as to be nearly plagiarized)
Tharizdun = Rovagug (hello!)
Were I joining your group I'd have a hard time accepting Zon Kuthon as Gruumsh -- and Yondalla as Abadar & Garl Glittergold as Shelyn. I guess I'm stuck on Race, and that kinda goes with Moradin, too, though I could accept him as Torag.
My litmus test for St. Cuthbert-Erastil is "Can one easily imagine both gods manifesting as Red Forman?" ;)
True story, my wife and i grew up in wisconsin and her parents look and act exactly like Red and Kitty Forman! it was awesome to see That 70s Show, it totally nailed growing up in Wisconsin (and yes i did know a guy that fell off a water tower trying to tag it lol)