There are a lot of Goblins in the Chitterwood. I don't think there was much of a chance of all of them leaving to go somewhere else regardless.
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Imagine, if you will, a Golarion with more than one sovereign and mutually-independent goblinoid nation in it. Actually, you don't have to -- Kaoling and Oprak have coexisted for years.
They're also on completely different continents.
Two goblin-type nations on Avistan, 200-300 miles from each other? Really??
To be fair, Azaersi was herself a Goblinblood Wars veteran before fleeing into the mountains of Molthune, very possibly these two revolutions stem from the same tradition of goblinoid patriotism, one branch of which just had to travel a bit before finding fertile ground.
Oprak also sounds like it's more inviting toward a variety of "monstrous" peoples from across the Inner Sea, a pointed "come one come all, here you can be normal" Statue of Liberty kind of message. Meanwhile from the sound of it Scorchome is more the goblinoids of the Chitterwood declaring themselves to the world, a bit more ethnocentric. Different national vibes.
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Golarion has a lot of human nations in Avistan, Goblins can have their own. I really dislike the idea that non-humans are only allowed one settlement. Taldor, Andoran, Nidal, Isger, Ravenoul, Nirmathas, Molthune are all human nations around them. yet we don't go "is that too much."
Moreover the cultures of Scorchehome and Oprak are likely to be different. Which is good.
First is just geography. Oprak is in the Mindspin Mountains
and Scorchehome will be in the Chitterwood. So just from Cuisine, clothing, housing, will things be different.
Then we get into the natures of their histories. For Oprak, they waged a successful war to conquer their region with their Iron Fang Legion. while for the Goblins of the Chitterwood they first waged war on the humans lead by goblins only to be defeated. Then to only get it through diplomacy with humans during the hellfire crisis when their home was in danger. So more cultural differences.
Most likely even the Hobgoblins and Bugbears of Scorchehome will be less militerisitic then the ones in Oprak. Because Oprak is a Stratocracy. Azaersi's title isn't king, or archon, or Chief, it is General. She is a General and everything is run through the military. I highly doubt that the government and structure of Scorchehome will look like that.
We know that there are a lot of different tribes in the Chitterwood and Isger more broadly. We got Bulbhead who love to wear masks, the pan-tribe cinder Seekers that seeks to prevent goblins from being enslaved by hob goblins again, the Hookback who well love hooks in their back, Mudrub who put on mud before battle and fear getting wet will ruin this muck, and many others.
The war itself will have a great impact on Scorchehome and the chitterwood goblins compared to the Oprakian goblins. It is the Scorchehome goblins their defining event of their foundation.
adding to that some goblins will just prefer Oprak's culture to Scorchehome. So that is just some of the ways they are likely to be different.
Another thing is that given the length of Goblin Generations, Goblin cultural progress (or the opposite) is going to be a lot faster than it is with other people. There could be 37 different Goblin micronations cropping up in Varisia if "Goblin Statecraft" becomes popular for whatever reason.
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Imagine, if you will, a Golarion with more than one sovereign and mutually-independent goblinoid nation in it. Actually, you don't have to -- Kaoling and Oprak have coexisted for years.They're also on completely different continents.
Two goblin-type nations on Avistan, 200-300 miles from each other? Really??
Wait until you count all the human nations!
I don't think anything in Scorchome resembles Oprak's intensely military-styled society at all from what I've heard.
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We have two goblinoid nations in Avistan, but still no halflings one, somehow... What this could mean?
Maybe when we get an Arcadia book or Casmeron book we will learn of a gnomish or Halfling Realm.
I Think the main difference between "goblins" and "halflings" in terms of "who gets to have a nation" is that goblins are frequently unwelcome in human cities and are positioned as outsiders, whereas Halflings are generally welcome there.
Halflings are gregarious and mostly like people, goblins might be friendly but are not historically tolerated by pink-skinned folks.
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I Think the main difference between "goblins" and "halflings" in terms of "who gets to have a nation" is that goblins are frequently unwelcome in human cities and are positioned as outsiders, whereas Halflings are generally welcome there.
Some humans like having halflings around so much that they don't let them leave even if they want to.
Creative Director
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And somewhere near bagbears, but they are murderhobos.
Yeah, I'm not sure bugbears should have a nation, since they're basically serial killers and are best, thematically, when used as loners. This also helps to keep the three goblin types thematically separate as well.
Back in the OGL days, I liked to think of the three as different takes on lawful evil (hobgoblins), bugbears (neutral evil) and goblins (chaotic evil).
In my mind at least, the main difference is:
Oprak = Hobgoblin nation
Scorchome = Goblin nationDifferent ancestries come with different vibes.
Yea, the two have different vibes. But even if they were of the same ancestry I think their location and history would make them different. Oprak is a mountianous land that won its freedom through conquest. While Scorchome is a forested land that won its freedom through fighting with allies against an empire.
the fact they are different ancestries IMO makes those differences stand out more. :)
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Eh, goblins are the only ones with that manic edge, though. Firestarters, bad singers, hates animals seemingly just for being trappings of organized society. They're the ones with the strongest link to Lamashtu.
Bugbears as described are antisocial, yes, but they're not driven my mayhem in the same way, just an enjoyment of fear and pain.
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Creative Director
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Back in the OGL days, I liked to think of the three as different takes on lawful evil (hobgoblins), bugbears (neutral evil) and goblins (chaotic evil).Well, I personally would rather make bugbears chaotic-evil, instead of goblins. Goblins at least can live together in tribes and exist as part of society. Bugbears just ex-crazy maniacs.
All good!
To me, the mayhem antics of goblins we delved into ever since Pathifnder's first Adventure Path fits chaos much better than neutrality, and the bugbear's devotion to "Do evil by any means necessary and enjoy it" feels more like they are just focused on evil without any additional distraction or preference toward chaos or law and could go either way. It also leans into the fact that our goblins worship demon lords, generally, and bugbears are more about themes about hunting and death that are more associated with Abaddon.
Being chaotic does not mean you can't live in societies, in any case.
All of which were indeed Pathfinder-specific deliberate choices made by me early on as part of the "let's put our own Paizo spin on these three to help separate them from the classic D&D roles they've played."
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It's easy enough to see that:
Hobgoblins see Bugbears and Goblins as undisciplined.
Goblins see Bugbears and Hobgoblins as not enough fun.
Bugbears see Hobgoblins and Goblins as potential targets.
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I saw a post somewhere a long time ago that suggested reflavoring PF Bugbears as brood parasites -- like cuckoos, they sneak their young into the…litters(?) of goblins and hobgoblins, who then use their greater strength and ruthlessness to outcompete their "siblings" until they get all hairy and sneak away.
I saw a post somewhere a long time ago that suggested reflavoring PF Bugbears as brood parasites -- like cuckoos, they sneak their young into the…litters(?) of goblins and hobgoblins, who then use their greater strength and ruthlessness to outcompete their "siblings" until they get all hairy and sneak away.
;p