Hi Everyone,
My next PFS character idea is an "artful dodger" Elvin summoner and his dog-like eidolon. The summoner and his eidolon are a pickpocketing team - the summoner acts as the plant/distraction while the eidolon commits the crime. Because, no one expects the dog to steal someone's coin purse. Right?
Anyways, I've been playing PFS for some time now. I fully understand the need for cooperation and "not being a jerk" rulings. I don't want to upset the players, the GM, or try to get extra loot by pickpocketing during play. I just think this is a cool RP concept and I would like to explore it to bring some fun and comic relief to the table.
Essentially, I want to do more with the concept than just having a Profession skill and saying "my character is a pickpocket. Let me roll my Day Job". But, I also want to respect the rules, table expectations, and my fellow players.
Summoner begins to distract NPC - "Hello Sir. Nice day we are having, eh? Say, my friends and I are looking for some information. Can you help us?"
Meanwhile, the dog (Disguise +12) sneaks around the NPC (Stealth +19) and attempts a to steal the coin purse (slight of hand +7).
Success - "Well thank you sir. You have done us a great service. May [Insert local god] bless you and yours". Sucker.
Fail - "Oh, I'm sorry sir. I'm not sure what got into my dog. Bad dog! Bad! Here sir, here is your coin purse back". Fail, but, a clean getaway.
On to the rest of the mission.
So, is pickpocketing a viable thing to do in a typical PFS game?
If I explain my intent before the game, will the GM allow it?
Can I pickpocket without automatically becoming evil and have the character banned from PFS?
And, how far can I take this idea without annoying or upsetting my fellow players?
Thanks!
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Unfortunately, you do not get to keep items that you pickpocket, so it is more of a niche skill. It does severly limit rping options, so a very generous gm might let you lift some cheap consumables from a stall for use in the adventure, but that is about all you can get. Pfs was not written with petty theives in mind, murderhobos(pathfinders) are the type to mass murder and then lift artifacts from museums in broad daylight, no stealth roll required because all witnesses are dead. There is a vanity that allows you to use sleight of hand for a day job check called theives guild, which, other than any skill checks written into a scenario, is the only way to get any mechanical benefit from the skill.
Edit: I do really like the flavor and RP though, so if you were at one of my tables, which I like to run a little more loosely, I would let you RP with that some.
Right. I get that there isn't any mechanical benefit to slight of hand in PFS other than - like you said - some random plot item or consumable usable for that session only.
The vanity you mentioned is cool but won't work. mechanically, for my character. The eidolon is the one with the slight of hand check and eidolons can't roll for day jobs. The Skilled evolutions would make any GM cry if it could be used for a Day Job check.
But, I'm fine if my shenanigans don't have any mechanical value. Like I said, the benefit is having some fun at the table. And that's good enough for me.
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Pickpocketing is a thing that you can do for RP, but be gentle with it as it can derail a game and turn completing the scenario into the party members being forced to testify against you as you get hauled off to jail. PFS GMs have permission to bring in the guards and punish characters who go off the rails by wantonly committing crimes and acts of great chaos or evil.
As to alignment, pickpocketting is more of a chaotic act than a good/evil act. Good and evil can apply if you are either being Robin Hood or stealing the last food from a poor orphan. Like all alignment questions, talk to your table GM, it's not regulated from on high.
The main thing as far as annoying players is going to be the time involved. Doing it once or twice for flavor, or to get a macgiffin for the group should be fine. Spending more than 5-10 minutes on it during a 5 hour session might be too much.
There is a cap on how much gold you can leave a scenario with, but in the case of a player who had a character like you describe, I have let him use his ill-gotten gains for buying drinks and paying bribes. Again, don't assume this, it's up to the GM. Communication is good. The guide does instruct us to reward creative solutions.
And Eidolon and its summoner have this strange magical glowing rune on their heads. There is no way that someone will think an eidolon is just a dog. It's a strange outer planar being that sometimes resembles something 'real', but clearly isn't the same.
Not even with a successful disguise check? According to the CRB, the penalty for disguising oneself as "a different race" is only a -2. A typical NPC shouldn't have that high of a perception or knowledge (planes) to know the difference. Should they?
I mean, there is always a chance that the check will fail. That's fair. But, if an Eidolon is disguising itself, does the check automatically fail because of the rune? Wouldn't part of the disguise be to hide the rune in some way?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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A few things:
First, in order to become a Pathfinder, your PC did one of the following:
A) Applied for membership and made it through about 3 years of training before being approved as a field agent.
B) Made some major accomplishment that publicly demonstrated your capabilities such that you were offered a field commission.
How does your concept fit into the framework of the campaign? Why is your pickpocket also a Pathfinder agent?
Second, what is the rest of the table doing while you're playing a solo game with the GM? How long will it take? Will you mind if each of the other players spends an equal amount of time doing one-on-one stuff with the GM while you wait? Do you think anyone else will mind? Will everyone get to finish the scenario without having to rush through something else (like, say, roleplaying the actual plot of the scenario)?
Third, you're a member of an internationally-known organization that is already not always on great terms with the authorities. Sometimes your mission actively involves trying to improve the public's perception of the Society. Is your concept going to cost your tablemates anything?
If you have good answers to all those questions, then knock yourself out and I hope to meet your thief! :)
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Regarding the eidolon's rune: "The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner's forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts)."
A rogue with the carnivalist archetype may be a better choice for the character concept though.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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And Eidolon and its summoner have this strange magical glowing rune on their heads. There is no way that someone will think an eidolon is just a dog. It's a strange outer planar being that sometimes resembles something 'real', but clearly isn't the same.Not even with a successful disguise check? According to the CRB, the penalty for disguising oneself as "a different race" is only a -2. A typical NPC shouldn't have that high of a perception or knowledge (planes) to know the difference. Should they?
I mean, there is always a chance that the check will fail. That's fair. But, if an Eidolon is disguising itself, does the check automatically fail because of the rune? Wouldn't part of the disguise be to hide the rune in some way?
Per the summoner class description, you can indeed hide the rune through mundane means.
However, there's also this:
The eidolon's physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.
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A few things:
First, in order to become a Pathfinder, your PC did one of the following:
A) Applied for membership and made it through about 3 years of training before being approved as a field agent.
B) Made some major accomplishment that publicly demonstrated your capabilities such that you were offered a field commission.
How does your concept fit into the framework of the campaign? Why is your pickpocket also a Pathfinder agent?Second, what is the rest of the table doing while you're playing a solo game with the GM? How long will it take? Will you mind if each of the other players spends an equal amount of time doing one-on-one stuff with the GM while you wait? Do you think anyone else will mind? Will everyone get to finish the scenario without having to rush through something else (like, say, roleplaying the actual plot of the scenario)?
Third, you're a member of an internationally-known organization that is already not always on great terms with the authorities. Sometimes your mission actively involves trying to improve the public's perception of the Society. Is your concept going to cost your tablemates anything?
If you have good answers to all those questions, then knock yourself out and I hope to meet your thief! :)
+1 to this.
For the record, as long as you arent spending too much time on it, or detracting from the rest of the mission by trying to steal from the contact who now doesnt want to give you information, Id just count your roll as your DayJob check (assuming its in that sort of thing).
On the other hand, something you need to take into consideration is that in game actions have in game consequences. If someone catches you, even if I do count it as your Day Job, itll likely lead to a confrontation or your arrest. So dont blow it. :P
I think it would be important to take the temperature of the table, some GMs will have great fun with it some will get irked. If you are at a table that is running on a time limit that is likely to be close such antics will likely not be appreciated. Personally I would not want to run such a concept in PFS, but if you have a good real life sense motive it might be viable.
So, which trumps the other - class rules or skill rules?
Does a quadruped eidolon disguised as a dog still look like a dog-like "fantastical creature"? Or, does it look like a dog, maybe an unnaturally well groomed dog, but a dog just the same?
I think it would be important to take the temperature of the table, some GMs will have great fun with it some will get irked. If you are at a table that is running on a time limit that is likely to be close such antics will likely not be appreciated. Personally I would not want to run such a concept in PFS, but if you have a good real life sense motive it might be viable.
+1. Oh absolutely. I wouldn't run this character without talking to the other players first.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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One of the first times I played my tengu rogue, I told the GM that I wanted to bluff one of the Pathfinder lodge guards by saying "Aram Zey said we might need an extra healing potion for this dangerous mission and that I could requisition one from any staff on the grounds. Can I have yours?" The GM looked at me, and I imagine that the following thoughts went through his head:
"Oh, that's a funny idea. I should play along because people are laughing."
"Huh, so what's the sense motive score of this guard? I guess I better get out my GMG and see if he even has a potion of CLW... this might take some time."
"Wait, would this mean he can do it every session? I mean, he is a rogue with bluff and sleight of hand like crazy. How does that mess with WBL?"
"I think this isn't a good way to spend game time."
And then he calmly told me that the guard laughed and motioned me on my way. Which I accepted and we moved on.
Since then, my rogue has collected specific shiny mission objects for his nest and keeps a log of them, but I keep any sort of theft as an abstraction for his Day Job roll. I mean, I get to save cities and discover artifacts and whatever else the society asks me to do. I can probably steal from people when I'm not on a mission. He owns a thieves' guild and everything. It just seemed like something I could hint at without actually forcing a GM to work with. Since my rogue is at 12th level, I'd say that everyone around here knows he's a thief without his ever having stolen anything at the table.
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First, in order to become a Pathfinder, your PC did one of the following:...
B) Made some major accomplishment that publicly demonstrated your capabilities such that you were offered a field commission.
How does your concept fit into the framework of the campaign? Why is your pickpocket also a Pathfinder agent?
He could work with the concept, his backstory being that he lifted something major for the society and that is how he got in.
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You can make your eidolon a fantastical dog like creature, then use a mundane disguise to make it look like a dog. Note that you would take the -2 penalty for disguising it a a different race, per the disguise rules.
Sleight of hand used to come up in a lot of faction missions. I can still think of a couple of year 5 mods that give opportunities to use it too.
As for fitting in to the society, we accept tieflings, dhampir, cultists of numerous evil deities, people with extra arms, tentacles, etc. So you say you're just a petty thief? Excellent, we have no morals what so ever, welcome to the pathfinder society!
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One thing I do with my con man/'legitimate businessman' is bribe someone for an easier DC, then try to pickpocket the money back afterwards. I don't believe anyone would view it as particularly game-breaking, but it's certainly flavorful, and all done in the vein of Explore! Report! Cooperate!*
*...with some creative liberties taken on cooperating being strictly within my budget and coin purse, but what do ya do...
I think I may have lost my keys then...
Ever do a Scadian event? Or looked at fantasy garb? You'll notice an absence of pockets which weren't part of clothing until the early 18th century. people generally carried pouches or small purses attached to belts.pockets don't existEh?
I understand what you are saying. Pockets didn't appear in clothing till the mid 1600s, I think - long after the "knights in shining armor" time frame that Pathfinder is based. However, Pathfinder is not meant to be historically accurate. Part of the joy of the game (at least for me) is to impart modern themes to a quasi-historical setting.
Besides, have you ever seen a dog snitch a burger or hotdog from a person's plate? Imagine that with a coin purse and you have the general "how it works" with my dog-eidolon.
Granted, the eidolon doesn't have a knife and can tuck the purse under it's clothing ala typical cutpurse fashion, but, the eidolon IS an intelligent creature and CAN use it's teeth and claws in inventive ways to make various skill checks, including slight of hand.
Thanks everyone for their advice. You all have been a big help!
What I'm hearing the general consensus is:
1 - talk to the GM and players before the game to see if there is any qualms about the tatic.
2 - if the players are ok with the idea, only attempt it once or twice per game, and never spend more than 5 or 10 total minutes of the game attempting to pickpocket.
3 - if all else fails, put some skill points into a day job for additional RP effects and continuing character story.
Did I miss anything?
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Ever do a Scadian event? Or looked at fantasy garb? You'll notice an absence of pockets which weren't part of clothing until the early 18th century. people generally carried pouches or small purses attached to belts.pockets don't existEh?I understand what you are saying. Pockets didn't appear in clothing till the mid 1600s, I think - long after the "knights in shining armor" time frame that Pathfinder is based. However, Pathfinder is not meant to be historically accurate. Part of the joy of the game (at least for me) is to impart modern themes to a quasi-historical setting.
Besides, have you ever seen a dog snitch a burger or hotdog from a person's plate? Imagine that with a coin purse and you have the general "how it works" with my dog-eidolon.
Granted, the eidolon doesn't have a knife and can tuck the purse under it's clothing ala typical cutpurse fashion, but, the eidolon IS an intelligent creature and CAN use it's teeth and claws in inventive ways to make various skill checks, including slight of hand.
Summoner/Dog duo: <Sitting on a stoop staring at the dog/dog staring back>
Fellow Pathfinder: Whatchya doin?Summoner/Dog duo: Waiting for my day job
Fellow Pathfinder: Huh?!
Summoner/Dog duo: Well, we almost got caught the last time, and the dog had to swallow the loot...
The clothes have plenty of pockets (especially the cloak).
+1. Do you know I don't think people could cast fireballs in the 1600s either, perhaps its not the same? ;) Also most contemporary fantasy loves pockets, historically accuracy be damned, Kvothe has oodles of the things.
For those who are interested...here is a link to a critique of the character build
faq for if pockets exist so we can get back to talking about LibraryRPGamer's character instead of whatever crap this thread is turning into
Mark for faq guys
This would be a good question for JJ
