Hey Evereyone!
I've been doing a lot of research on the boards reciently into eidolons. I’ve seen a lot of talk on the boards about eidolons and trying to make them into walking trees. Because, you know, Pippin and Treebeard rock!
So, is there a way to do this?
Other evolutions like Large/Huge (it’s a big tree), Skilled: Disguise (hey look, it’s a tree), Skilled: Know Nature (it knows about the forest), Imp NA (its bark is thick), etc. could work to make the eidolon more tree-ish.
But, I'm not sure what to do with the quad's bite attack
How would you do it?
How would a tree eidolon compare to other builds?
If I were building a tree with a quadruped eidolon this is where I would start -
Bite, grab (bite), swallow whole. Getting stuck inside a tree sounds reasonably thematic.
Slam attacks. While not optimal, it's supposed to be a tree right?
Tremorsense.
If you are carrying Merry and Pippin - Mount evolution.
Not sure why you'd go quad, as to me a tree at best would look like it has two legs. I'd go Biped, and you already get limbs and claws. I'd probably go with Pull and/or Push, definitely Reach, totally Slam, perhaps Tentacle, if you go with Combat Maneuvers then definitely Grab. I'd say Tremorsense for flavor. Also, for a little extra LOTR flavor add Swallow Whole. Oh, and certainly the Large/Huge evolution.
Bite attack on trees aren't unusual, so I wouldn't worry about it. It could be a crack, knot, or burl in the trunk that is actually a mouth which bites the target.
Though it may not be optimal, the first thing that came to mind for me was biped with lots of tentacle attacks that would be flavored as tons of tree limbs. I really like Skilled for disguise though.
I would have started with a biped -- treants definitely have claws but not necessarily bites. They are big and strong but not particularly agile, which again works best with a biped. There is no particular reason to make him fast, so he does not really need more than two legs. I would add arms and claw or slam attacks up to the maximum, give him the most natural armor you can, and make him as big as your level allows.
It is a pity that there is no "plant traits" evolution, as that is the big thing this eidolon would be lacking.
If I had a giant tree, I would want to go Pippen/Treebeard or Rocket/Groot style with it - ride the sucker into battle. So, the Mount evolution would be a must for me. That's why I went quad over biped.
I do like the idea of slam attacks vs. claws. Swallow whole is and tremorsense are excellent suggestions!
Any others?
Also, what about starting with the Serpentine base form?
They can have the mount evolution and they don't have legs (like a tree). Would it be worth it to add a bunch of arms with either claw or slam attacks?
Super Genius Games had the "Hut" base form -- that is probably the closest thing to a treant I have seen. This form is basically built to carry people. Combine it with a small race, and you can ride it into combat from 1st level.
You could go aquatic base if you wanted mount, make it a swampy tree. Thematically appropriate aspects of the aquatic base: it has the Str 16/Dex 12 profile similar to biped; it would only get the limbs you put on it, so is a slow mover; gills simulate a tree not suffocating in water; and it gets improved natural armor (bark) for free. It does have a bite attack, which is a bit off.
Biped is probably the best bet if you give up on the Groot-mount idea. You could even swap out the claws for one massive slam attack if you wanted to go that route.
Rocket doesn't really use Groot as a mount. Stick with biped, get a small race and take ranks in climb and acrobatics. You can cast and maybe use a hand crossbow or firearm if you really want to go Rocket.
As long as you aren't trying to gain the benefits of riding (moving on the initiative, lance charges, using riding feats) then I don't see why you'd need the mount evolution. Just climb onto his back and hang on for dear life.
Aquatic is an excellent idea. The image of a swamp tree is great!
If I didn't go with the "ride a tree" idea, what would be the best race/archetype combo for PFS?
Half-Elf Wildcaller maybe?
Rocket doesn't really use Groot as a mount. Stick with biped, get a small race and take ranks in climb and acrobatics. You can cast and maybe use a hand crossbow or firearm if you really want to go Rocket.
As long as you aren't trying to gain the benefits of riding (moving on the initiative, lance charges, using riding feats) then I don't see why you'd need the mount evolution. Just climb onto his back and hang on for dear life.
Interesting...makes sense though. What would be the DC for something like that?
Interesting...makes sense though. What would be the DC for something like that?Rocket doesn't really use Groot as a mount. Stick with biped, get a small race and take ranks in climb and acrobatics. You can cast and maybe use a hand crossbow or firearm if you really want to go Rocket.
As long as you aren't trying to gain the benefits of riding (moving on the initiative, lance charges, using riding feats) then I don't see why you'd need the mount evolution. Just climb onto his back and hang on for dear life.
I'd say that's up to your GM. Personally, since it's more about flavor than powergaming, I'd give it a fairly low DC to just be up there normally while it's walking around. 5 or so... I mean it's a tree. My kids can climb them.
In combat I might bump it to DC 10 or 15 if the thing's attacking/being attacked.
The simplest approach would be to go with the biped base form and have him carry the (Small) summoner between battles. During battles, either the summoner jumps/climbs down or the eidolon puts him down before getting down to business. The summoner is a spellcaster, not a cavalier.
The simplest approach would be to go with the biped base form and have him carry the (Small) summoner between battles. During battles, either the summoner jumps/climbs down or the eidolon puts him down before getting down to business. The summoner is a spellcaster, not a cavalier.
True. But the summoner could also go melee. It's more like a bard than a sorcerer, after all. Besides, doing tag team tactics with a moving tree could be fun. In that case, the most optimized rout would be Half-Elf Wildcaller
I'd say that's up to your GM. Personally, since it's more about flavor than powergaming, I'd give it a fairly low DC to just be up there normally while it's walking around. 5 or so... I mean it's a tree. My kids can climb them.
In combat I might bump it to DC 10 or 15 if the thing's attacking/being attacked.
According to the SRD, climbing a tree is a DC 15.
0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.
5 A rope with a wall to brace against, or a knotted rope, or a rope affected by the rope trick spell.
10 A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship's rigging.
15 Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
20 An uneven surface with narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon.
25 A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
30 An overhang or ceiling with handholds only.
— A perfectly smooth, flat vertical (or inverted) surface cannot be climbed.
Climb DC Modifier*
Example Surface or Activity
–10 Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls.
–5 Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls.
+5 Surface is slippery.
If you're not set on being a summoner you could be a treesinger druid with a sappling treant as your animal companion. It starts out medium size and advances to large at 4th level.
Actually, this idea came from the Treesinger. But, I play PFS and wanted to go mounted combat rout. Therefore, I needed to accomplish the same thing with a small sized race...hence Summoner.
Leaf it alone.
Which would be more optional? Treesinger or tree eidolon?
Here is a question: if the mount had an enemy grappled, does the rider get to attempt any of the options listed in the grapple rules (pin attack etc)
Also, as suggested, the aquatic base form could work for a tree mount. Multiple head, bite, grab, and reach evolutions could simulate the limbs rapping around the target.
Thanks everyone for your hrlp! Any final suggestions?
Hope I'm not too late to the discussion. I've been working on my own treant eidolon, so I've been giving this a fair bit of though lately. By default I'd go with the Biped base form since it's a strong package, has no superflous/wasted evolutions and is most treant-like.
If your goal is to have your summoner riding along however, then I'd say Quadruped is the way to go. Aquatic is an interesting alternative since it's stronger, but it has a slow land speed and the lack of any free limbs is a significant trade-off.
Personally, when visualizing a treant, I prefer to imagine it looking like a proper tree rather than a giant bark-covered humanoid. To that end, I wouldn't describe the eidolon as having four big stumpy legs akin to an elephant. Instead, I'd say that the treant's torso/trunk reaches down to the ground and that's it's "legs" are instead four big splayed roots that stretch out laterally. To move around, the roots arc up and ambulate like a spider or crab's legs, lifting and supporting the trunk between them. The other benefit of being Quadruped is the ability to pounce which, when combined with strength, ensures that you can hit any opponent ASAP.
Although it's tempting to give a treant slam attacks, eidolon evolutions make that a costly proposition. Each slam attack ends up costing 3 evolution points: 2 for the limbs and 1 for the slam. For the same cost you can get two limbs and a pair of claw attacks. The difference in damage between claws and slams simply isn't worth twice the EPs. I'd also stick with claws as the sole attack method; adding additional branch/arms as needed. Sticking with claws is good because they're all primary attacks and, because they're all the same, they're easier to improve with certain feats, like weapon focus. Also, if you take the rend (claws) evolution or grab feat, you'll have better chances of using them successfully every round. It's tempting to add in some vine-like or root-like tentacles to the mix, but they're secondary attacks and so are not as effective overall. Don't forget that you can apply up to two claw attacks to your root/legs to save on one limbs evolution!
If you want to use the Quadruped's bite attack, I'd describe it a bit differently. Since I don't like the visual image of a treant lunging forward to bite and chew on enemies, I'd describe its "bite" as being a few short and stumpy branches on the treant's trunk (akin to tusks) upon which it impales enemies. It'd use it branch/arms to batter and draw opponents towards its trunk and then, WHAM, they find themselves suddenly impaled.
For other evolutions, I'd aim to stack as many Strength, Constitution, Reach, Size and Natural Armor increases as you have the points to allow. A few skilled evolutions (perception, disguise & know. nature) help to round out your treantness nicely.
If your GM is amenable to it, I'd further propose adapting the undead appearance evolution to apply to plants instead. It's an easy task to swap out undead related immunities and spells for their plant equivalents. Here's what it would look like:
Plant Appearance (Ex)
An eidolon appears as a plant creature, and mimics some of a plant
creature’s abilities and weaknesses. Spells and effects that target
plants or have specific effects against plants (such as Command Plants,
Control Plants, and Detect Animals or Plants) affect the eidolon as if
it were a plant. The eidolon gains a +2 bonus on saves against all
mind-affecting-effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects,
and stunning.
At 7th level, this bonus on saves can be increased to +4 by spending
2 additional evolution points. At 12th level, this protection can be
increased to immunity against these attacks by spending 2 additional
evolution points (the summoner must pay for the 7th-level upgrade
before paying for this 12th-level upgrade).
Although the eidolon appears as a plant, it is still an outsider.
Finally, here's a quick list of feats that's might prove useful:
Arcane Strike
Power Attack
Toughness
Weapon Focus (Claws)
Improved Natural Attack
Rending Claws
Lunge
Monkey Lunge
Improved Critical
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the hints. I think I will stick with the aquatic form though. It will help with the grapple Checks in the long run - I Lyme the swallow whole idea mentioned above. Besides Expeditious Retreat can overcome the lack I land speed.
I'm imagining this eidolon as a mix between a hydra build and a skilladon focusing on grapple rather than pure dpr.
What skills would be appropriate for a tree?
Know nature. Perception. Disguise. I guess. Any others?
Hey, whatever floats your eidolon. ;)
As to skills, Treants normally also focus (and have racial bonuses) on stealth as well as Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive. Stealth to me is counterintuitive. Being Huge, treants are too darned big and clumsy to find somewhere to hunker down and hide. Your approach, that of hiding in plain sight by disguising yourself as a tree, makes much more sense. The rest are all social skills, which seems a little odd for a forest-dwelling hermit but who knows? Maybe treants get together for weekly poker nights or something. I could see intimidate being useful for scaring the bejesus out of enemy mooks. Aside from that, there's nothing too pressing that I see. So, if you have skill points to spare, perhaps take Sense Motive. It being a mere companion,it hard to imagine that your Treant will be the party face. But it never hurts to have a buddy who can signal you if he notices someone lying to you.
I can see stealth as a skill for treants - hiding in a forest provides good cover for a walking tree, after all.
As far a stealth with the tree eidolon goes, I imagine it more like a tree sneaking up on someone like in the Bugs Bunny cartoons - step step step...and TREE!
Maybe a successful disguise check will hide the eidolon rune (which, I picture as an arcane glow showing through the bark) so that the eidolon can "act" like a normal tree. The only problem with that is that any commoner can roll for a Know Local to realize that there wasn't a giant tree planted in the middle of the road the other day. Maybe the summoner can bluff to blame those pesky driads...its always the driads ;)