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Hello all,
So, I’m about to have FotGS go off the rails and I’d like some advice, and yeah… I know this is LONG, but I wanna make sure I’m not being TOOO much of an ass here since this has the potential to either end the campaign or take it in a mythic direction.
Background: The PC’s fought the raid and managed to kill the dragon, several giants, and Nualia (she’d been captured and later escaped in BO). They then tracked down Teraktinus and the surviving giants and killed them just north of Wolf’s Ear, rescuing the prisoners and then teleporting everyone back to Sandpoint over the next few days. They further managed to capture and interrogate one of the Stone Giants, but did not ask about Mokmurian’s plans, only who he was and where he was based before they executed him. They then returned to Sandpoint and then split the party with 4 going to Magnimar with the intent of taking some undefined amount of time off to craft magic items and retrain and the 5th staying in Sandpoint.
I, the GM, knowing that Mokmurian is going to launch his invasion wanted to give them a LITTLE hint, so I hit them with a bit of a clue hammer by having Avaxial warn the Hellknight PC that he should act, lest in his sloth he be acted upon, and they seemed to get the hint that a long break now might not be the wisest course of action. Further, I’ve warned them that the bad guys have their own agenda and will be acting on their own timelines, rather than waiting for the PC’s to come and find them sitting around.
Background pt2 - Magnimar’s situation: Long story short, Mokmurian & Galenmir have another agent in Magnimar that has been keeping the place in a reasonable degree of Chaos by orchestrating the overthrow of Lord-Mayor Grobaras and then charming the Sczarni leadership into mounting a rebellion against the triumvirate of Lord-Mayor Hobart Deverin, Commander Odinburg, and Captain Uriana. While the rebellion has no chance of success it is keeping Magnimar’s army & watch occupied in suppressing it. As it stands now, the rebels have been forced back into Rag’s End and the place surrounded while the Hellknights and watch work on clearing out the place. NOTE: Deverin & Uriana both have been charmed by Mokmurian’s agent who convinced them to employ the Hellknights, knowing that their heavy handedness would prolong the fight longer.
The current game date is 1/22/4709 and the PC’s are in Magnimar.
- 2/1/4709 - The Frost Giants join Mokmurian’s army at Jorgenfist.
- 2/2 & 2/3 - Mokmurian & Galenmir recall their forces from the mountains & make final preparations to march.
- 2/4 - Mokmurian’s army marches from Jorgenfist. His army is composed of 2 Red Dragons, 2 Lamia PRiestesses, the Stone Golem, 10 Dire Bears, 10 Mammoths, 1 Taiga Giant, 50 Ogre Fighters, 33 Hill Giants, 10 Runeslave Hill Giants, Lokansir, 115 Stone Giants, 4 Stone Giant Chiefs, 18 Frost Giants, Enga, and 2 Troll Fighters. He’ll leave behind a relatively token force of 10 stone giants under Conna the Wise, as well as the other not listed baddies.
- 2/5 - Mokmurian’s army descends the Storval Stairs and marches for Ravenmoor, 72 road miles away at 32mpd.
- 2/7 - On that night, Mokmurian’s army falls upon a sleeping Ravenmoor, sacking the town and capturing 70 of the 133 human inhabitants. The rest killed or scattering into the wilderness. His army suffered no losses.
- 2/8 - Mokmurian rests his army and brands all the prisoners with the Sihedron, and then sacrifices them in mass to Karzoug.
- 2/9 - Mokmurian marchs south for Wolf’s ear, 73 road miles away at 32mpd, his “friendly” dragons allow him to easily overcome any travelers they encounter, as well as scouts Magnimar has on patrol in the area.
- 2/10 - Again at night, Mokmurian attacks Wolf’s Ear, using the dragons to destroy anyone attempting to flee by boat and a blocking force on the road to Galduria, those that aren’t captured can only flee west into the Churlwood. Knowing what lies ahead though, Mokmurian hastily sacrifices the prisoners and allows his army a few hours of rest before pressing onwards.
- 2/11 - Mokmurian advances on Galduria, covering the 33 road miles in a day and arriving a few miles north of the town in the night. Mokmurian & Enga sneak closer to town and he Dimension Doors her into the Twilight Academy to begin quietly murdering the wizards in their sleep. Mokmurian stays concealed until Galenmir’s two pronged attack on the town and on the Academy itself. The town, caught by complete surprise, briefly tries to resist but quickly surrenders to Galenmir after it sees the destruction being wrought on the Academy by the dragons and giants.
Though many of it’s most powerful members are killed by Enga, the Academy takes a toll on the attackers. In the battle, Enga Keckvia and a half dozen giants are slain (they are returned as Runeslaves), and dozens of others badly injured, but in the end, the Academy falls.
In the chaos of the extended battle, several citizens are able to escape the fall of Galduria and flee south towards Nybor, 72 miles away.
- 2/12-2/16 - Mokmurian, while resting his army, loots the Academy as well as brands and sacrifices all ~1000 Galdurian survivors to Karzoug.
- 2/13 - Galenmir convinces Mokmurian that some had to have escaped Galduria’s fall and that they might be able to cut them off with a small force of giants to blockade the River. Mokmurian agrees and dispatches the Maidens of Minderhal under Halvara south to blockade the river.
- 2/16 - Straggling survivors from Galduria reach Nybor, warning them of the giant army that attacked their home and destroyed the Academy. Nybor, being too small to possess a priest or wizard capable of using Sending, dispatches messenger pigeons to Magnimar, 150 miles away as the crow flies, and Wartle to warn of the army of giants. It’s leaders dither on whether to fight or flee.
- 2/17 - Mokmurian marches south towards Nybor, 72 road miles away. The Maidens of Minderhal arrive and take up position on the Yondonbarki River.
The leaders of Nybor come to the conclusion that an evacuation would see them all cut down on the road to Wartle, and even if they made it, Wartle is much less defensible than walled Nybor. Therefore they begin calling up the militia and preparing to defend the town.
Word reaches Wartle and the town leaders know they can’t defend the swamp village from an army and decide to Magnimar and into the swamps.
- 2/18 - Mokmurian marches towards Nybor, while the Nyborians fortify their town.
The people of Wartle evacuate, some into the swamps, the majority head down river via boat towards Magnimar. 15 miles outside of the town, the Maidens of Minderhal intercept them and begin holing their boats with hurled boulders. In the end, they take approximately 100 prisoners.
- 2/19 - The messenger pigeons finally reach Magnimar, informing them of the destruction of Galduria, but making no mention of the evacuation of Nybor.
Mokmurian reaches Nybor at midday and encircles the town, letting them see his army.
The Maidens of Minderhal brand and sacrifice the 100 or so survivors to Karzoug.
The Magnimaran Triumvirate convenes to discuss response what opens they have. Decision made to send scouts up river to find the giants and to warn Sandpoint as well as attempt magical scrying and communication tomorrow. To facilitate this, they call the heads of all the temples and the Stone of the Seers to let them know that they will need to prepare spells for tomorrow.
NOTE: If the PC’s are in Magnimar, they will be summoned to this as well.
- 2/20 - Galenmir, Mokmurian, Seleval & Zaelsar meet with the leaders of Nybor and offer them terms of surrender. The silver tongued (+22 bluff) Lamia convince the Nyborians to surrender. The giants immediately move in and begin rounding up the 500 residents who have not fled and branding them with the Sihedron.
Magnimar uses Sending to try contacting: Mayor of Ravenmoor (fails), Priest of Desna in Wolf’s Ear (fails), Head of the Twilight Academy (fails), Priest of Erastil in Galduria (fails), Priest of Desna in Nybor (succeeds) and receives message “No choice but to surrender to Lord Mokmurian. We are gathered in town square and being given his mark.”. Sending to Priest of Erastil in Wartle (succeeds and receives message “We’ve taken our heartiest to the swamps, the rest are fleeing to Magnimar. We will hide until they pass and deem it safe.”
- 2/21 - Magnimar uses sending to warn Sandpoint, Whitledown & Illsurian of Giant army and also uses Sending to contact the Nyborian Priest of Desna, but it fails. Magnimar begins organizing for it’s defense, starting trying to end the conflict with the Sczarni.
Mokmurian considers resting his army, but is contacted by Karzoug and told to press on without delay because he is so close to fully awakening. Further, that he is to press on to Sandpoint at once.
Mokmurian marches south to Wartle.
NOTE: If the PC’s aren’t in Magnimar, they receive a Sending ask them to return to help defend the city.
- 2/22 - Mokmurians army turns west, marching along the river and picking up the Maidens. Late in the day, it encounters the Magnimaran scouts coming up river. The dragons burn their boat to the water line, killing all the scouts, but not before a Ranger is able to use an Animal Messenger to send word to Magnimar that the giant army is marching towards the city.
Magnimar continues fortifying and trying to end the conflict with the Sczarni, but Mokmurian’s agent will not allow that to happen. By this point every member of the Sczarni leader has been charmed, as have quite a number of Shoanti, and convinced that the threat of giants is all just a Chelish lie.
- 2/23-2/25 - Mokmurian marches west at 32mpd.
The Magnimaran Army & Navy work to fortify the city with the help of the Pathfinders and every mercenary available and begin calling up all available militia.
- 2/24 - When the ranger’s animal messenger reaching Magnimar with confirmation that the army is marching on Magnimar, the Triumvirate’s patience runs out with the Sczarni and they dispatch all the available golems from the Golemworks into Rag’s end. By the end of the 25th, Rag’s end has been destroyed as has the Sczarni’s ability to resist. The Watch & Hellknights are re-deployed to defend the city.
Magnimar sends scout cavalry, along with a priest capable of using Sending, east along the river road to find the Giant army. They are moving east at 32 mpd.
- 2/25 - Magnimar begins arming the civilians of the city to help defend itself.
- 2/26 - Mokmurian leaves the road, traveling west north west overland at 24mpd towards Sandpoint, but leaves all 10 Runeslave Giants and Cinderma to continue west and give the appearance of being the army’s scouts.
Magnimaran scouts encounter Cinderma and the Runeslaves. The scouts are capable of sending an Animal Messenger eagle back warning of the Giant’s approach before they are wiped out.
- 2/27 - Animal messenger reaches Magnimar warning of giants approach along the road.
Mokmurian’s army reaches Sandpoint in the early afternoon and attacks. The dragon’s burn the ships in the harbor, block the roads, and then enter the city to capture everyone they are able to. Of the 1200 residents, over 900 are captured and they are immediately organized for branding with the Sihedron. The citizens are kept in the graveyard, and once branded, they are brought into the Cathedral for holding. The dragons are used to guard and cow them.
NOTE: If the PC’s aren’t in Sandpoint, they receive a Sending from Father Abstalar Zanthus of “They’ve returned! The giants and the dragons have returned! Sandpoint is falling!”
- 2/28 - At midnight, Karzoug finally receives enough greedy soul energy that he fully awakens from his imprisonment in the Eye of Avarice.
By 9am, the final sacrifices are made, but with so much hate flowing around, the Runewell of Wrath below Sandpoint has begun to overflow with energy.
NOTE: If the PC’s investigate the now super charged Runewell, they will achieve Mythic status given the # of wrath points each has accured.
- 3/1 - Mokmurian loots Sandpoint and begins withdrawing for Jorgenfist, his job done.
So, where I have some questions and seeking for advice is:
Question 1: How hard do I hit them with the hint hammer? i.e. in our next session do I let more hints drop? Or leave things as is and let events play out as they will?
Question 2: Assuming that they do take the time off to make magic items, does my current timeline & plan is looking like this, but am I missing anything? Should I do anything differently? Also I know the PC’s are chaos incarnate and will throw things off, but… yeah. That army is quite the juggernaut that’ll take a LOT of work to throw off.
Quesiton 3: Am I being to much of an ass here? This has the potential for some pretty epic rewards with mythic power. But could it also end the campaign. Advice is deeply appreciated!
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OK. That entire timeline is a thing of beauty. As I always advise people,
look to historical wars for casualty/capture rates. Anything above 50% is really unprecedented.
Otherwise, it is well-thought out, and as brilliant as you would expect.
Question 1: How hard do I hit them with the hint hammer? i.e. in our next session do I let more hints drop? Or leave things as is and let events play out as they will?
The PCs finished Book 3, you added an additional major hint, and they still want to spend weeks in Magnimar crafting, not even pondering what it all means?
As I like to say, "The world does not wait for the PCs."
They *know* there are loose ends, they *know* someone is masterminding something major, and they're going to take 2 months off to craft?
I think your timeline is excellent. I would drop no more hints unless your PCs can be bothered to look up from their crafting tables long enough to say, "Y'know, maybe we should pay attention to the world around us or something..."
I am old-school, and have zero tolerance for playing an RPG like a video game, where the father says, "Orcs took my daughter and said they were going to sacrifice her tonight," and the PCs can then take three weeks to rest up, craft, and complete three other quests to come back to this one, that has mysteriously stopped in time until they get back to it.
HOWEVER, once cities start falling in that timeline, you ARE going to get stragglers who get away across the country side on horseback. The giants go at 32 mpd. Give the fleeing civilian 40 mpd and have the PCs get a few days (as appropriate) warning that the juggernaut is coming.
Question 2: Assuming that they do take the time off to make magic items, does my current timeline & plan is looking like this, but am I missing anything? Should I do anything differently? Also I know the PC’s are chaos incarnate and will throw things off, but… yeah. That army is quite the juggernaut that’ll take a LOT of work to throw off.
The entire point of Book 4 is
the urgency of the PCs acting to PREVENT that army from ever forming.
As I said, I think your timeline is a well-thought-out thing of beauty. I am a "kind" GM, with perhaps one PC death per module, but in this case they really are begging and pleading to have that "juggernaut" dropped on their head.
And honestly, even with those numbers compare that to a standing army.
There will be pursuit post-destruction of Sandpoint, but it's going to be by an entire army from Magnimar, supplemented by the PCs and archmages from the academy in Korvosa. Just the kind of epic-scale battles that are so hard to run well, but that last with players for a lifetime.
Quesiton 3: Am I being to much of an ass here? This has the potential for some pretty epic rewards with mythic power. But could it also end the campaign. Advice is deeply appreciated!
I love it. You're not being an ass, you're being an "educator". :-P
Ugh! Sorry about all the edits and spoilers, but there's one more thing to mention:
Once Mokmurian falls, Karzoug's major agent in Golarion is gone, and there's an essentially-infinite timeline during which PCs could be crafting. You might want to hint at that at the end of Book 4. Have Karzoug say something really stupid (as monologuers do) like, "You may have stopped my plans for now, but I will soon have other agents..."
Nobodyshome is right - it's a great timeline overall, but realistically there is no way the giants will consistently inflict 100% casualties; in most cases there will be lots of fleeing survivors/refugees. A single total wipe-out near the start might be possible, but with Varisian terrain it's extremely unlikely they can take out (eg) a platoon of Ranger scouts with *none* escaping - the overmatched Rangers will shrapnel in all directions, some are bound to get away.
When players agree to participate in an Adventure Path, there's a certain degree of agreement to play it as it's written. PCs have a lot of latitude but unlike a hand-written campaign, it should have been discussed that there are some rails involved. It's should be understood that there are plot milestones which should be reached, but how they're reached is up to the players.
It might not be unreasonable to OOC mention that. "Hey guys, there are three more books to go and if you ignore the dangling plot hook right now, we're basically not running them."
Some things should stay solely in-character but with an AP being a special, very long campaign, I don't think it's unreasonable to revisit what's going on OOC. Your players will probably ask a couple questions and you should be able to answer them without significant spoilers. "Yes, you'll have opportunity to craft... this just isn't a good one."
Oh, and not that this helps you, but in my campaign I noticed there was basically no down-time in the first three books, so I had the note that clues the PC's in to how book 4 starts contain a date, a couple weeks in the future, to deliberately allow them some time off. I took that OOC and told them what I was doing. "This may not be totally realistic but I want to give you a chance to actually do some of the fun RPG things like buying and selling." They appreciated that and feigned a sense of "not-exactly-urgent-but-let's-still-take-this-seriously".
While Anguish's critique is well-thought-out and well-stated, I think that's what I find so beautiful about Jimmy's original plan (sorry, I'm not typing that huge string o hunka-hunka burnin' love atcha, Jimmy!).
The party is in no significant danger throughout. That "juggernaut" would be obliterated by the walls of Magnimar, so they can sit around and safely do nothing. Only thousands of NPCs die. And heck, the original authors killed millions during Earthfall!
I find that most players I've encountered love playing with a bit of angst; an, "I really screwed up and now I have to atone for it," moment.
So *since* the original plan does not TPK the party in a petty, "Oh, you crafted, you're all dead," manner, I still support it. Yeah, Book 4 is kind of derailed, but Books 5 and 6 can still be run almost as-written, so it's not a waste. And the post-juggernaut pursuit? That is the stuff that legends (and lifetime memories) will be born of!
Pointless tie-in: In my campaign the party returned to Turtleback Ferry only to find that Mayor Shreed had resorted to sending dead children to Magnimar in his desperate plea for aid from them against Black Magga, and it took that much to get Mayor Groboras to send any help.
Ever wanna have fun? Tell an 18th-level paladin with mythic tiers about sending dead children by post as a request for help.
Black Magga didn't last a round. But it was SOOOOOO worth it!
Angst: Worth its weight in RP gold!
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Reading your timeline - and going over the adventure again...
The adventure gives the PC's the clues "Perhaps he will attack as soon as months end"
Your timeline has the giant army attacking in as little as a week.
The adventure also assumes you travel overland to the fortress - 15 days if pushing it - without time for encounter (which you are supposed to throw in as well).
Again your timeline seems way too aggressive. At least using the published material - it would be 2-4 weeks at the earliest the giants set out from the fortress. The first stop would be Sandpoint - and even giving giants a 3-1 speed advantage (which they don't have in the rules) - it would still be another week for them to make it to Sandpoint.
Given that armies always go slower - they should actually take about 3-4 *more* weeks to reach Sandpoint.
So really if you are dead set on the idea a real life timeline would be 5-8 weeks for the army to hit Sandpoint.
That seems like your players could craft all they want - and um just have *another* raid on Sandpoint type encounter.
(as a player I'd find doing the same thing twice boring just FYI).
The bigger question is - and this is always the case when the GM and players are at odds - why are your players forcing a break - if they really feel they need one perhaps now is the time to go over 'crafting on the move' rules (giving them a reason to use the overland routes). The players may just need some downtime - and unlike many that post about Runelords I haven't seen anything in the adventures that pushes things along at a breakneck pace - in fact given the start in fall and the fact that book 3 happens in the spring I figure there is most likely a good month or two between books 2 and 3 - This is only reinforced by the raid on Sandpoint and such being depicted as happening in the summer - the seasons in the literature don't match up with a forced march (which would have them starting book 3 in the middle of winter - a bad time for the rains to never stop in Turtleback). Given that it's February in your timeline I'd expect that the giants don't want to start a march on war until after the spring season (for realism anyway - foot marched armies traveled with the weather).
I couldn't find anything other than distances (and that the Frost Giants were not at the camp even after the expected 2-3 weeks it takes for the PC's to show up) that shows how soon this army is going to move.
Actually given the objective is to take revenge on the scribbler - without the evidence from the Sandpoint raid - I'd expect another group (small) sent out to verify the Sandpoint infor - that's 2-3 weeks *to* Sandpoint and 2-3 weeks back and then time to validate the info (however long that magical ritual takes). That at least would be me pushing things as fast as I could according to the story written.
But it's your game.
Question 1: How hard do I hit them with the hint hammer? i.e. in our next session do I let more hints drop? Or leave things as is and let events play out as they will?
I'd feel free to give any priest PC's warning.
Question 2: Assuming that they do take the time off to make magic items, does my current timeline & plan is looking like this, but am I missing anything? Should I do anything differently? Also I know the PC’s are chaos incarnate and will throw things off, but… yeah. That army is quite the juggernaut that’ll take a LOT of work to throw off.
If the players stopped the raid before it made it back to Jorgenfist - then the evidence that launches the army at Sandpoint hasn't been found. That evidence has to be found and analyzed before the army would move - the adventure as written assumes 2-3 weeks later the frost giants are not there yet (at the camp) - your timeline is way to aggressive based on what's happening as written.
Quesiton 3: Am I being to much of an ass here? This has the potential for some pretty epic rewards with mythic power. But could it also end the campaign. Advice is deeply appreciated!
I find if you think you are being an ass at all you expect your players to be upset about the whole thing - that's usually a good time to back down and realize that making scenarios to punish your players will get you a broken group (seen it happen too many times sadly). Remember - the point of the game is to have fun.
I'm afraid I'm with Chorik (or I think I'm with Chorik, if I'm not reading it right I can be told to get off his side. :)
Short version: I think you're being a <body part that rhymes with trick>
At least as far as I can follow.
The players should be allowed to craft items. They took those feats, they should be able to use them.
The AP as written provides an immense amount of slack time between the defeat of the Sandpoint raid and any actual mobilization of Mokmurian's forces. The Jorgenfist descriptions imply the Frost Giants are 2-3 weeks away when the PC's get there and that's assumed to be 2-4 weeks after the Sandpoint Raid. The players should have at least a month if not 6 weeks after the raid before they should fear the army on the move. Just how much crafting did they plan to do?
The AP also points out that the giants have been very scrupulous about keeping a low profile prior to the raid so as not to alarm the populace. Why? Because any sighting of a Giant is sure to be widely reported. I would suggest with the abundance of rangers, druids, clerics and mercantile traffic in Western Varisia, most settlements as well as Sandpoint and Magnimar are going to be aware there is a Giant army on the march shortly after the fall of Ravenmoor. Mokmurian simply can't move fast enough to outrun the news of his approach. And that doesn't even account for the near certainty of direct messages from the gods to their clerics warning of the same. No one will be surprised by his arrival - towns evacuated, armies marshalled, etc. And given your players have access to teleport they should have several opportunities to confront his forces long before they get to Sandpoint or Magnimar.
Your timeline does a nice job of laying out just how awful it would be for Mokmurian's army to actually get on the march and even with advance warning (as I suggested above) I'm not sure anyone can do much about it. Certainly the only place that might be able to hold out would be Magnimar. Even if the PC's help, that seems a lost battle. In those numbers and strength you describe, Magnimar is toast. And if I follow your timeline, Karzoug is free of the Eye after the sacrifices at Sandpoint. At that point Varisia is toast too. Karzoug trapped in the Eye is vulnerable, especially to characters with Dominant weapons. Karzoug free of the Eye with all his allies in the Pinnacle and the Leng Device? Umm, I suggest the PC's move to Minkai - it'll take him a couple generations to conquer that far. And why does Mokmurian stop after Sandpoint - his goal is to conquer all of Varisia and restore a giant-based empire? Karzoug and his cronies teleport in the next day and together they pound Magnimar as flat as a pancake - message to the rest of Varisia - surrender or face the same fate. Korvosa sends a treaty of capitulation the next day.
And I can't see how the subsequent chapters can possibly play out given this timeline. How do the players find the library at Jorgenfist? How do they find the Scribblers Lair and make their way to Runeforge? Having conquered Sandpoint, Mokmurian can easily discover what he wanted to learn from the first raid and then he has more than enough forces and skills to exacavate, find the Scribbler and turn Lamashtu's temple into a real ruin. Goodbye secret access to Runeforge. And once Karzoug's free, he'll go there directly - he built the darn thing, he knows exactly where it is. The only thing that kept the Runelords out of Runeforge was other Runelords. Oops they're all gone. Karzoug knows Runeforge is the secret to his destruction - that's why he wants the Scribbler silenced in the first place. The moment he's free, scorched-earthing Runeforge is going to be very high on his priority list.
If you want to run a War between the humans of Varisia (and such allies as they can muster) and the Giants of Xin Shalast, go for it. But it won't be this AP and much of Ch 4-6 will be useless to you except for details on forces but not locations or strategies, tactics etc. If your players find out it went this way because they wanted to craft a few magic items, I suspect you're going to have some 'splainin' to do.