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Hi,
A bit of backstory,
Ive run a few scenarios in the past where I have managed to get dominate of and 'working' on characters in the group. It's not a spell Im all that comfortable with (versus say Confusion which is a lot less open to mystery).
I struggle to be able to reconcile what I can do with dominated party members (even charmed ones). Ideally Id like to turn the fighter on the lightly armored wizard hiding up the back or on the similar squishy type or on that Paladin who is really #@$%#$ me off with the whole 'double damage vs evil outsider businees'.
Sadly that sorta direct action antics requires saves as it's not something the character in question would normally do. (and lets be honest, there really is little point in dominating some characters whose saves are ridiculously high by the time you get access to the Dominate spells, then we have the 'Ioun stone crew').
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What I am after is advice on what to do with characters I have dominated. When the during combat actions say 'Dominated X will protect the big bad' what exactly is that. Can I sunder the persons weapon? Trip them? (To me everything sounds like a instant save for the dominated character).
Any examples of what I can do would be appreciated. The spell just seems incredibly weak to me.
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Kinevon: Can you give me a bit more? Id like some specifics. What details 'protect X in the best way possible'?
This is my issue. Most things I want to do with the character would require a save and saying 'defend me' is incredibly ordinary as a battle tactic. You can go full defense to protect yourself.. not someone else (although there are feats for that which NO PC EVER TAKES in PFS :) )
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You could tell them "Run away and get reinforcements." Sure, that's one character out of the fight instead of two, but it's non-lethal and wouldn't require another save.
Also note their behavior before the dominate - if a wizard is willing to include PCs in his area of effect spells when he is not dominated, then it wouldn't require a save, IMO, to use the spells on them while dominated.
And the line between dominated, charm and suggestion is a hard one - and for me the hard point is what a person does when charmed.
I second though the concept of doing something non-lethal to fellow party members as something one can often get away with on the dominate.
When the during combat actions say 'Dominated X will protect the big bad' what exactly is that. Can I sunder the persons weapon?
I think it's an indication that the scenario writer doesn't really understand how the spell works. (Unless "Dominated X" is not referring to a Player Character.)
I don't really see this spell as a combat option. It's more of a political intrigue tool. However, if I do use it in combat, I command the person to go somewhere else.
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If the PCs tactics have been observed beforehand, an intelligent opponent will take advantage of that to the best of his or her ability.
Vampires dominate the fire sorcerer (he really should have made the save but his dice hated him). The instructions were: "Burn your companions to the best of your ability".
So he breaks out his highest level fire spell and applies his best bonuses/tricks/equipment whatever and burns the party...and the vampires - because they didn't specify.
Command issued by vampires next turn: "Continue burning your companions to the best of your ability, but do not harm any vampires."
The player can always take the most advantageous interpretation of commands she is given and I never let the NPCS issue more than a single sentence command.
Use your dominated pet to harm the party, disable the party, trap the party, inconvenience the party, destroy the macguffin or, get out of combat and disable themselves.
Depending on the PC's previous actions I may or may not grant them a save if asked to harm the party or protect the bad guy. If they are asked to waste their turns or do non-harmful things, I usually don't give them a save with dominate.
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Step 1: Remember that dominate has a 1 round casting time. I often forget this.
I've seen dominated PCs be commanded to do the following...
Some other's I've considered
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I'm very skeptical on giving a second save for just about everything on a dominate. You're exerting mental control over a puppet at that point. I'd give a paladin a second save if I ordered him to kill innocent orphens. But not if I told him to subdue the chaotic neutral person in the group.
Players will want a second see for being told to eat dinner. It's your job as gm to adjudicate whether it warrants one or not.
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Man, if only there were a codified mechanic already in place that could inform our adjudications of what would or would not be against a given PC's nature...
I don't think that works. Its certainly a START.
My lawful good Silver crusader might very well magic missile a chelaxian necromancer in the party
My chaotic good Tengu inquisitor of Calden Cayden would politely ask the bad guy to delay the cast so he could drink enough booze to lower his wisdom score so he could fail the save to feather the chelaxian.
The neutral Tanky druid would NOT attack a fellow pathfinder. They're part of his herd.
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There are enough counters to being dominated that when it does happen it should be a memorable experience.
I usually have the Bad Guy tell his (or, usually, her) dominated minion to slay a specific party member (the wizard, for example). If it's a player I know is good and I can trust to play the part, I'll let them do whatever they would do to kill their fellow PC - there's no reason they wouldn't do what they always do facing a matching threat: fight to the best of their ability. they should use every feat, trick, and combo in the book to slay their erstwhile ally.
In the rare case in which I had a player reluctant to do so, I'd probably just "NPC" the character; I've never had to do this, though.
My view of dominate person is that it's among the most potent, dangerous spells - when a PC is dominated, he should become the sole focus of the rest of the party. Why nerf it on the (very rare) occasions when it happens?
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Man, if only there were a codified mechanic already in place that could inform our adjudications of what would or would not be against a given PC's nature...I don't think that works. Its certainly a START.
Well, I did say "inform our adjudications", not "completely spell out everything for us".
Lots of people seem to forget that just because a rule doesn't dictate the final answer doesn't mean it can't guide the process and even outright eliminate some individual "wrong answers".
For instance, someone whose alignment is defined in the Core Rulebook as only keeping their promises "if they feel like it" doesn't get to claim that breaking his word is against his nature. Does that get us our final answer of whether or not he gets a new save? No. But it gets us one step closer to a good decision.
Seems like some folks, upon seeing a mechanic that doesn't hand them the final answer, just throw up their hands and spitball it from scratch as though there were no rules for it at all.
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One way to approach getting a PC to do something that would be normally against their nature is to phrase the command in such a way that makes it sound like a reasonable thing to do.
For instance, lets say you get dominate off on the front line fighter. If you tell your new friend to disable his caster buddy because "the caster is causing damage to the building" or whatever that's something that is less likely to be against his nature than "attack your friend!" But it still achieves a similar, if not identical, effect.
That being said, I find that divide and conquer are good uses for dominate. If you can get a PC to leave the room then that hurts their chances. And its really difficult to justify a second will save if you tell a PC to go hang out in a different room.
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Charm X, Suggestion, and Dominate X for a hierarchy of spells. An important part of understanding them is understanding their spell-types in addition to their descriptions.
Charm X are a set of enchantment (charm) spells.
A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.Suggestion and Dominate X are enchantment (compulsion) spells.
A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.
Charm doesn't give a lot of room. When I adjudicate them, I tell players to think of the PCs and NPCs as real-life friends they may have had in the past that hate each other. If you try to get a charmed target to do something against their friends, the target weighs the two sets of friends against each other. In other words, a charmed enemy is only marginally useful when the enemy has other allies around them. In other situations, they will help however they can just like they would help any other friend.
Compulsions are much different. They force the target to do things they would not normally do. It is very much a form of control. Suggestion offers NO opportunity to re-save although it does have to be "reasonable" and more reasonable Suggestions may even trigger a penalty on the save. Dominate X only gives a re-save when the action is against the target's nature. Most Pathfinders are quite eager to kill things and take their stuff and the same goes for most intelligent enemies they might encounter.
Charms - would I do something for a friend against some other friend? Probably not in most cases.
Compulsions - unless the spell gives an out, the target does it. Period.