Are you still looking for budding tyrants or do you feel like you have the core group you want to move forward with? I'm in a Kingmaker game and have been enjoying the kingdom building aspect a lot, and Civilization has always been my favorite PC game. This sounds like a great idea to me!
By water, do you mean a river running along the border of the capital, a seacoast adjacent to the capital, a one-square lake, or players choice? It makes a difference.
I hadn't given much thought to it - I had been thinking in terms of a starting point for farm irrigation. I just went and gave water a closer look, though, and I see how many buildings depend upon having a water border (or completed aqueduct) to exist. I have two thoughts on the matter:
Thought #1: 10 BP to start with a water border for your capital which connects to the sea in some way (either river or coast). 5 BP to start with a source of non-connecting water (small lake or mountain river)
Thought #2: Alternative to all the starting-location rules I've proposed, I could give each player a radius-2 view of a spot, and let them set their capital anywhere in the inner circle. See this image, with any of the seven marked spaces being viable starts. With this plan, you would pay a set cost per terrain to alter what's in this starting grid. Probably 2 points to make something into a "inferior" type, 5 for a good type.
Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing any rivers on your example map. It is all one continent with lakes of different sizes. Is that what we should expect?
Hmm... I hadn't noticed that, but that is an issue. I do have the ability to draw my own rivers, which might be the answer (and would be something I'd do before assigning starting areas).
Are you using CIvilization to create the map? I have not used its mapmaker, but i believe it can be used to generate different kinds of worlds with various levels of resources.
FreeCol usea a New World / Old World paradigm with the Old World off map.
I'm going to have to take a look. I'm using Hexographer right now, because it was the best random hex generator I found, but I hadn't considered looking at Civ. I'll take a look and see whether something like Civ or FreeCol will work.
Really interested in playing! I love these types of games! Count me in if there is room!
Are you still looking for budding tyrants or do you feel like you have the core group you want to move forward with? I'm in a Kingmaker game and have been enjoying the kingdom building aspect a lot, and Civilization has always been my favorite PC game. This sounds like a great idea to me!
Definitely still room! I don't know that there is a practical limit, other than my ability to keep up with everyone. I'm still very much in the planning stages, but the more people chiming in on those, the better everything will work in the end.
I couldn't agree more. Mountains and deserts represent territory that currently don't provide any real benefit to conquer and settle on. There is, currently, no real value to either terrain type, and I for one would love to find a reason to explore and expand in those areas. Perhaps by adding a mechanical, technological, magical, offensive, or defensive advantage to these terrains it may prove lucrative.
Mountains and deserts are both viable places to build mines, but so are hills. Deserts can be irrigated, and mountains quarried, but again, hills can do both. So they're not useless, but they also aren't as versatile.
I like the idea of making them have a higher chance of having boons, but I'm not quite sure how I'd actually accomplish that with my current tools.
I like the revised water tweak, as it adds solid usability :)
There seem to be three different BP spends in pre-game, so far...
A) Race selection (Halfling, Dwarf, Derro, Half-Halfling-Derro-Dwarf)
B) Region request before placement (Coastal, River, Plains, Hills, Ruins)
C) Terraforming (tweaking before final capital placement)
Is that about the size of it? Should we assume A and B are the same time window, and C follows with capital placement?
Yep, that's pretty much it. The numbers might change, but I can't think of anything else you'd be able to spend pre-game points on. After all, you need them to start your kingdom...
I think I do need to tweak the numbers, though. A standard kingdom under ordinary rules starts with 50. My target number for this is to start with around 60, to speed up the early game slightly. Thus there ought to be around 40 points worth of stuff for the average person to spend it on. Then you can spend less, to get extra starting BP, or spend more to get a better position. My numbers don't come anywhere near making that target into the sweet spot, though.
I am leaning toward a halfling settlement. I'll start to tinker with the numbers, but I won't put too much time into it until we firm up more of the rules and variants we'll be using.
at this point i am using goblins and am ok with pretty much anything you wish to give me on the map. Means I have 90 points left over and I can build things for half price...
I think i am a little above the sweet spot ^-^
Thought 2 sounds better to me.
Maybe rather than having a set pool of points which converts to BP at the end separate them into separate pools and have any leftover or overspent points from the first pool (race/terrain) convert into dice of BP. So 5 leftover race/terrain points gives you 1d8 or 1d10BP (dependidng how generous you want to be), while being over 40 (or whatever limit you set) by 3 or 4 gives you -1d6BP or something like that, add a bit of randomness.
If you're looking for things to spend points on for terrain then another options you could have is to be able to purchase landmarks, lairs, resources etc. in addition to whatever random ones you place so people could buy a gold mine within X hexes of their capital, or a wild herd of elk or a chicken roosting ground or the like.
This looks interesting. If I find the time to i would like to try a ratfolk city.
Question, will there be NPC settlements, marauding bandits, and monsters?
Another question, what character classes can our proxies take?
I love the example maps you've generated so far. Something to consider would be a reference system. It would save some confusion if we could say "I'm adding a farm in hex AA23" rather than "I'm adding a farm in the plains hex two hexes southeast and one west of the capital."
Question, will there be NPC settlements, marauding bandits, and monsters?
Possibly, probably only through events, and yes but only as you explore.
I like the idea of having NPC settlements, but I don't know how I'd handle them. I wouldn't want to try running them on top of everything else, so they'd probably be static and/or just a DC to annex as a city. Much easier to just not include them and leave the interactions to between players.
Monsters will be something you have to take into account when you're exploring hexes (as per Exploration Edicts, possibly tweaked slightly to provide numbers for the Stealth check), but the only way they'll attack you is if an event calls for it.
Another question, what character classes can our proxies take?
As of right now, they're too abstract to actually have classes - they're just attribute arrays that may potentially have stat-boosting items. However, once I get to the army rules, their class may matter enough that I go add something for it.
In other words, they can be any class or class combination you want :)
I think he mentioned giving each player a different coordinate system but maybe im just making that up
I think I did, and if I didn't, I should have. My plan is to take my master map, and slice it up for each player. Possibly with rotations before applying a coordinate system. I'd then need to translate visible moves (and other information) from one player's map to the other, but it means that no one else would know what you mean if you refer to A32, but they'll still know that it's adjacent to A31 and B32.
And on that theme - here's the Exploration Edict excerpt, for the usual feedback and commentary.
Exploration Edicts
Exploration edicts are the easier of the two ways you can explore hexes, which is required before you can claim them. As such, they are very important to the growth of your kingdom. Note that you have no limit on the number of Exploration Edicts in effect at any given time, but you may only start them as one (or both) of your Special Edicts for the turn.When commissioning an expedition, you must determine the length of time the expedition will travel for, the quality of the expedition members/equipment, and the route to be taken.
- The route can be specific, as in “Travel from this hex to this one to this one, spending at least two days in each” (even if that’s off the edge of your current map), or it can be a set of rules such as “Follow this river, turn left if you find the sea, and don’t enter mountains.” So long as I can interpret it and it doesn’t contain any time-based directions, it’s fine. All routes must start in your capital.
- The BP cost is based on the number of months and the quality you select. The final cost is computed ahead of time and must be paid up front. If you are unable to afford it, you have wasted your edict for the turn.
While exploring, the expedition uses the travel time and exploration time charts, based on their travel speed below. Caverns count as mountains, Jungles count as marshes.
- Poor quality expeditions can’t explore water hexes, unless they leave your capital by boat, in which case they may not explore any hex that does not adjoin the water.
- Basic quality expeditions can’t explore mountain or swamp hexes, due to the inability to take their supply wagon with them.
- Within your kingdom, travel speed is boosted by any roads or highways you have built.
While exploring, explorers make one Exploration check per day spent in a hex, using their modifier from the table below.
- The day spent traveling into the hex does not grant a check. However, it does immediately tell you any obvious features of the hex.
- The DC of the check generally ranges from 15 to 30, based on what’s in the hex.
- A success means you discover any hidden features of that hex (if any). A failure means you get no new information.
While exploring, explorers have a chance each day to have a hazardous or hostile encounter.
- While within your borders, these chances are significantly lower.
- Hazards generally mean the exploration party loses one day of travel, although some could be worse.
- Hostile encounters generally mean a monster is in the area, which the expedition attempts to avoid with a Stealth check using their modifier from the table below against a DC based on the encounter.
- -- If they succeed by 10 or more, they capture or kill the monster(s).
- -- If they succeed, they lose a day as they avoid the monster.
- -- If they fail, they are attacked. Make a Stability check based on the encounter. On a success, they lose two weeks to regrouping. On a failure, they are lost (Unrest +1, remaining investment is wasted)
Quality | BP / month | Travel speed | Exploration check | Stealth check
Poor | 1d2 | 20’ (carrying supplies) | +10 | +2
Basic | 1d4 | 30’ (supply wagon) | +15 | +4
Average | 2d4 | 30’ (pack mounts) | +20 | +8
Good | 3d4 | 40’ (riding) | +25 | +12
Exceptional | 4d4 | 40’ (overland flight) | +30 | +20
Other than the atrocious formatting of the table, any feedback?
My plan is to apply 7 days worth of rules/rolls to each expedition each turn. Lost time just means they get a "Did nothing useful" type of result for that day.
The other way of exploring that was hinted at is moving armies around. If you send an army out (even a small one), it'll move slower and probably cost you a lot more, but you won't have nearly the same amount of trouble with monsters.
I'm tempted to make found monsters make settling the hex harder, but then you have the problem where exploring longer makes monsters more likely to appear...
I like each of us having our own maps and not entirely knowing where everyone else is, makes it feel more realistic.
Oof! You really don't want them to run into a monster! I think it'd be a cool addition if you could hire experts to go on expeditions, that could provide benefits such as a ranger/tracker providing a bonus to your stealth checks by providing advanced notice of monsters, or a scout providing a bonus to your exploration check, an engineer to make repairs and help overcome/bypass hazards, that sort of thing :)
Question will race affect the modifiers?
Question will race affect the modifiers?
Will race affect the...
A) Travel speed?B) Exploration check?
C) Stealth check?
As there are stat mods and racial traits that would apply to any of the above.
Exploration and stealth.
Also, what optional rules from ultimate campaign are we using?
If speed for exploration will be an issue, then we should give a bonus if the explorers have a stable in town.
I like the possibility of capturing a monster; if there is a menagerie in town, it would explain how we could populate it (that, and random encounters).
I would imagine divine spells are granted by the proxies' sponsor being.
Question will race affect the modifiers?Will race affect the...
A) Travel speed?
B) Exploration check?
C) Stealth check?As there are stat mods and racial traits that would apply to any of the above.
Very good question... and as I've gone on, I haven't had any good answers for the racial questions. Honestly, they only started mattering at all when I wrote up the Proxy rules and went "Wait, we need stats...". It's clear people want it to matter, and I like the idea that race does have an impact, but I worry about whether some races might be too strong when abstracted down to a few benefits. I know different civilizations in Civ have different traits and tweaked units...
Thinking about this question, I think I may have two different problems which are each other's solution. What if starting BP could be spent to apply a racial ability to the kingdom rules? Something like "If your race can fly, you can spend 15 starting points to have every expedition automatically be Exceptional quality for the cost of an Average one." I'd probably limit it to three traits - two kingdom and one army. This way, everyone could pick their race's "best" features and get adjustments, without me having to account for each race individually.
As always - thoughts? Suggestions?
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Exploration and stealth.
Also, what optional rules from ultimate campaign are we using?
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As for divine casters, I'm inclined to say that markofbane is right. Their powers still work, but they're really being granted by the Being, or all the Beings as a group, or some god-emulator they created for the sake of granting divine powers. Or this is just a custom demi-plane in the Golarian universe. Or all universes touch on it and all gods (from any system or RL setting) are available...
"If your race can fly, you can spend 15 starting points to have every expedition automatically be Exceptional quality for the cost of an Average one."
Boiling several incoherent and poorly thought out thoughts into one simple one:
"Yes but."
It could get really pricy really fast, especially for those people using weird races (which are more likely to have useful qualities).
Thoughts on arbitrarily determining what kinds of bonuses core races would have (beyond that "ask and ye shall receive") which is free (part of the racial cost), and anything above that would cost additional BP?
That way those of us with weird, expensive races can at least have something whereas everyone using a more basic race has more flexibility.
or some god-emulator
"And this device here is a god emulator. It's not actually an all-powerful diety, but it does answer prayers!"
Yeah, I figure that divine casters would still get spells, etc. just that it's not really coming from where they think it's coming from. Part of the magick that holds the world together, etc.
(import DeityAPI?)
Thinking about this question, I think I may have two different problems which are each other's solution. What if starting BP could be spent to apply a racial ability to the kingdom rules? Something like "If your race can fly, you can spend 15 starting points to have every expedition automatically be Exceptional quality for the cost of an Average one." I'd probably limit it to three traits - two kingdom and one army. This way, everyone could pick their race's "best" features and get adjustments, without me having to account for each race individually.Question will race affect the modifiers?Will race affect the...
A) Travel speed?
B) Exploration check?
C) Stealth check?As there are stat mods and racial traits that would apply to any of the above.
It feels like two free raises in expedition quality is remarkably cheap for the benefit...
What about abstracting the benefits? A race with a speed bonus gets an exploration speed bonus. A race with a travel method gets a conditional speed bonus. A race with a stealth or perception bonus gets a minor bonus on the appropriate check.The bonus doesn't even have to be equivalent, just present. The most unbalanced at that point would be travel abilities like terrain-walk or flight, which accelerate exploration in rough areas only.
Ok so if we are using all the rules I'm thinking of having a overlord or oligarchy ruler.
I'm definitely going to have to rethink the racial bonus plan. You're probably right that it should just be sundry bonuses rather than big steps like that.
What if racial (non-movement) abilities could be translated to a +2 on a check of some kind, and you got to choose up to two for free, and pay 5 points each for each extra? Movement abilities would give some other bonus, but still count towards your two-for-free-pay-for-more.
Maybe single-race kingdoms would get +3s instead of +2, but dual-race kingdoms would get the +2s for both races (so four free, but you're paying to have the two races in the first place)?
I'd definitely wait until the army rules are closer to being done before setting these numbers in stone, because there should be benefits on that end, too. But how's the idea?
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Ok so if we are using all the rules I'm thinking of having a overlord or oligarchy ruler.
Definitely in there!
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I'm also just letting everyone know that RL's kicking me around this week. It's my last week at my old job, so I'm working late trying to get everything done. Hopefully, I'll still have some time to work on this, but it's less likely than I expected and this is turning into a larger project than expected. I had originally had hopes of starting this on this last Sunday, but looking at my calendar, the last weekend of April is looking more likely.
Which is not to say you should all go run away and vanish! I'm going to keep on working on assembling the rule document, and I'll keep posting excerpts and questions. The more feedback I get the better.
However, if you do find yourself losing interest in the interim, I'll also PM anyone who expressed interest in this thread once the recruitment thread is up (whenever that ends up being), just to let you know that everything's done and ready to go.
Some of the skills usually have no place in the rules, but are in some of the buildings so if a race has a bonus to one of these would it get a discount?
Some of the skills usually have no place in the rules, but are in some of the buildings so if a race has a bonus to one of these would it get a discount?
I'm not sure I follow. Can you give an example?
The ratfolk have +2 craft(alchemy) so they would get a x bp discount on the alchemy building.
But how's the idea?
Got my vote.
The ratfolk have +2 craft(alchemy) so they would get a x bp discount on the alchemy building.
I can see that. It'd be a pretty minor benefit, since you're not going to build alchemy-type buildings very often, but if we make it stronger because of that...
Alternatively, rather than making the building cheaper, it could make it stronger. An extra +1 Economy from it, for instance (off the top of my head - I have no idea what the stats are).
Both seam fare to me looking at the rules.
I recently noticed a little less activitie so I seams life is getting in the way of more then you.
I would give a single building the bonus or discount rather than anything that the skill applies to.. It could get a bit silly otherwise with some skills :P
I also like the single or multi racial bonuses described above. I'm really looking forward to seeing the completed rules :D
In the interest of balance, I'd say give each race two building discounts, a primary and a secondary. If a player has two founding races, they get the primary for both. And I wouldn't expect to see the discount on something like farms unless it was offset with a heavy penalty in combat or similar key stat.
I say discount for building rather than a bonus every turn because it is easier to keep track of and you don't end up with a Nagaji city three-quarters full of observatories because they get a +1 economy bonus for each one. Either that, or limit the per turn bonus to the first one built, or tie the number that give the bonus to the city size or similar mechanism.
Im ok with the delay in this due to real life, and i dont mind it taking a while to get started and begin. I really like the concept so i intend to be here when it starts and on being here until then :)
Except i am realizing that i dont have that much to say in the way of feedback :( i can defently be here and watch/input when i can, but balance issues are over my head right now (experienced in pathfinder but not in kindom builder sadly)
But i can offer moral support! Cause i really am looking toward playing this awsome game :)
So good luck with it and as always, i look forward to reading whatever you post up ^-^
Yeah I'm in about the same situation as Gobo Horde, I like when systems are detailed like you guys are discussing, but balance is tricky and not something I've had much luck with. Generally better to keep it simple though.
Unless you're looking to make your system really comprehensive--and willing to triple or quadruple the size of your document in the process--I'd suggest just getting the basics down and then deal with individual bonuses as appropriate when you know what races you're actually dealing with, it'll be much less of a hassle I suspect.
Just my thoughts anyway :)
I agree with you peanuts that would make things easier so I have bin trying to keep a list of all the races and will post later.
Definitely a good point - I don't want to over-complicate things, since there's already a large number of rules to keep track of. I'll leave the race-specific stuff out for the time being, and graft it in later once everything else is done, based on the races people want to play.
Ultimate Rulership imposes a 50% price increase on duplicate buildings within the same district (except for a few things that are supposed to duplicate like city walls and housing). That may or may not be enough to force diversity - I might make it a stacking 50% increase.
Peanuts-orcs, strix, trog.
Gobo-Goblins.
Me-ratfolk.
I did not see any other people say what race they will be using.
Please tell me if I forgot someone.
.
I did not see any other people say what race they will be using.Please tell me if I forgot someone.
I did not pick a race yet. I am waiting for the complete ruleset.
I'f I'm not allowed to have three races I'll probably just go with Strix and Trogs btw. Someone else said they wanted a Humans and Monster combination, uh... Draco18s. He has contacted bobson directly with his choice.
I'd been looking at some kind of undead, so probably Dhampirs.
I am thinking of making a panda race as the slaves/farmers of my ratfolk.
Any thoughts, and what do you think of it?
I was looking at a halfling community.
I did not see any other people say what race they will be using.
One of my races is publicly known at this point. The other is not (intentional, I'm sure people will discover it in due time).
I have discussed races with bobson, but I am holding off on final decision until rules are available.
I have also been contemplating a slave race :P
Alright I have made my panda-men and will try to find a good name so I would like to hear anybody's ideas.
Qualities
Type-humanoid
Size-medium
Speed-slow (-1rp)
Stats-greater paragon (-2dex,-2int,+4str) (2rp)
Language-standard
Traits
Defense-desert runner, mist child, mountain -born (4rp)
Skills/Feats-craftsman, scavenger (3rp)
Movement-climb (2rp)
Combat- weapon familiarity (sickle, bows) (1rp)
Weakness-negative energy affinity (1rp)
Total RP=10
Well i cant critique the created race much, i can offer my insights.
The first major one is that all you have is crunch, nothing else. Who are they, what are their habits, their looks, distinguishing features, personality quirks, relations to other races, ect. Go wild and write a story about them or a bio. Without at least some of this, i dont expect you to get much headway, let alone a go ahead.
A good example would be the claptraps that i bult up.
As for what you do have, i dont see much cohersion, you have a slow, low dex built creature that is good at running and gets a bonus to a dex based ability. You also have a - to int andthen increases to 2 int skills.
From what i understand, you are trying to create a strong but slow, mountian dwelling race thats good at climbing and surviving in the mountians.
Also, whats with the negitave energy afinity???
Without fluff filling this out, it just dosnt make much sense :(
Sorry, this is sounding harsh...
...and this is why I have been leery of designing my own race. It's very easy to get what you want mechanically, but much harder to justify to any rational person why this would exist in any world.
Oops I had the fluff but forgot to post it but I only have a outline at the moment.
The [insert name hear] had a culture sentered on magic and used it for almost everything in their society. But a small group of them favored dark magic and etempted to takeover the kingdom. The resulting civil war tainted the land and killed most of the population though the old ways prevailed. In the end the race had destroyed their lands with the vary magic they loved and disregarded it . Having no way to cleanse their lands only those who had a tolerance, or affinity for it survived. When the ratfolk stumbled upon them they found them in this sorry state. Ever looking to gain power the rats bargained for the race to live in exchange for 1000years service.
So do you guys like it?
Gobo-I ment desert runner to represent that they have bin put to the breaking point by the rats. Climb is a trick they held onto from their mountain homeland.