Okay, I am sure there are other examples, but this is one I just noticed and inspired this thread.
I am redesigning an old character of mine who has infernal ties. So, I am going with a flame oracle, but I also was thinking of taking the Eldritch Heritage feat with Infernal.
So, that's when I noticed...
Infernal sorcerer gets...
On Dark Wings (Su): At 15th level, you can grow fearsome bat wings as a standard action, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. The wings can be dismissed as a free action.
and the Flame oracle gets...
Wings of Fire (Su): As a swift action, you can manifest a pair of fiery wings that grant you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can use these wings for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1 minute increments. You must be at least 7th level before selecting this revelation.
Now, other than On Dark Wings being granted at 15th level and Wings of Fire being at chosen at minimum 7th level, On Dark Wings is CLEARLY superior due to having no use limit like Wings of Fire.
So, why the discrepancy? Is it just the level difference when you get it, or is there other factors at work? Is it just a case of two difference designers designing each power and the oracle's designer not keeping it equal to previous abilities?
Also, the difference between a swift action and a standard action to activate is only nominally relevant, you could easily change Wings of Fire to a standard action and then it would be exactly the same, but would that be wrong to do from a game balance standpoint?
Because WoF is a swift action, you can activate it during combat without losing a significant part of your turn. ODW is a standard action, so you would have to activate it pre-combat if you wanted to take a standard action on your 1st initiative, not that this is usually an issue.
ODW is a 15th level ability, which means you can only grab it with Greater Eldrich Heritage. Wings of Fire is more similar to Wings of Heaven, a 9th level ability.... which means you need only Improved Eldrich Heritage to get it.
Yes, but forget the feat that didn't exist before since I only mentioned that as to what made me notice this... it's an at-will ability vs. a minute per level ability. Even if you delayed Wings of Fire to 15th level and made it a standard action...
Which, your mention of Wings of Heaven is a good point... That's a discrepancy in the main book (nevermind that Wings of Heaven has no indication of the type of action it is to activate.) Looking at it from a purely game mechanic standpoint, why would I want Wings of Heaven over On Dark Wings at 20th level? Standard vs. Swift? That's in no way worth the difference between a 24 hour ability vs. a one minute per level ability... maybe if Fire/Heaven were one HOUR per level it would seem more worth it at 20th level...
Unless someone rules that the wings get in the way or something, when are you not going to have the wings out?
Why wouldn't you have them on all the time?
Well, in the case of Wings of Heaven and Wings of Fire, because you can't. One minute per level. Plus, common sense says they would get in the way, not to mention OMFG that dude has huge bat wings... he's a demon/devil RUN!!!! Yeah, unless you are actually using them, there's no need to keep "On Dark Wings" active other than the fact that you can.
You're kidding yourself if you don't think 8 levels is a LONG time. Flame oracle pays for a swift action each fight to get it much earlier, since 7 minutes will be enough for your fights and some puzzle solving. They just can't have them out all the time.
You're kidding yourself if you don't think 8 levels is a LONG time. Flame oracle pays for a swift action each fight to get it much earlier, since 7 minutes will be enough for your fights and some puzzle solving. They just can't have them out all the time.
Well, right I realize that, but maybe the ability should improve at higher levels then? Because, as it stands looking at a level 20 character... An Infernal Sorcerer's wings are hands down better than the Flame Oracle's.
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Now, other than On Dark Wings being granted at 15th level and Wings of Fire being at chosen at minimum 7th level, On Dark Wings is CLEARLY superior due to having no use limit like Wings of Fire.
It's like you're comparing a 4th level spell to an 8th level spell and complaining that the 4th level spell is weaker...
You're kidding yourself if you don't think 8 levels is a LONG time. Flame oracle pays for a swift action each fight to get it much earlier, since 7 minutes will be enough for your fights and some puzzle solving. They just can't have them out all the time.Well, right I realize that, but maybe the ability should improve at higher levels then? Because, as it stands looking at a level 20 character... An Infernal Sorcerer's wings are hands down better than the Flame Oracle's.
Do you realize it though? "Better" here is completely superficial.
A 7th level character gets 7 minutes of flight time. Most encounters only take 4-5 rounds if not less. The normal amount of encounters daily is 4. That leaves 3 minutes of flight for special circumstances or obstacle bypassing.
As opposed to 15th level(A HUGE difference), you get permanent flight which you'll only use just as much as the Oracle's wings will anyways.
All in all the Oracle ability, taking into account when you get it, is far far better.
As opposed to 15th level(A HUGE difference), you get permanent flight which you'll only use just as much as the Oracle's wings will anyways.
So, when the Infernal winged person decides to fly away and the Oracle wings person follows.... well, the Infernal escapes because he's got unlimited flight time and the oracle better make sure he's not too high up when his time expires, a danger the Infernal doesn't have.
It's like you're comparing a 4th level spell to an 8th level spell and complaining that the 4th level spell is weaker...
Now, other than On Dark Wings being granted at 15th level and Wings of Fire being at chosen at minimum 7th level, On Dark Wings is CLEARLY superior due to having no use limit like Wings of Fire.
Except that an 8th level spell would be different enough that you would have reason to use the 4th level still sometimes, and even if it's not much different (say Cure Critical is clearly better than Cure Light, but of course its higher level) you are still limited to how many times you can use the higher level version, plus if you only need to cure 8hp, why waste your Cure Criticals? However, if you had Wings of Fire AND On Dark Wings, Wings of Fire would become worthless as soon as you got On Dark Wings because they both do exactly the same thing, other than the limitations on usage time.
As opposed to 15th level(A HUGE difference), you get permanent flight which you'll only use just as much as the Oracle's wings will anyways.
So, when the Infernal winged person decides to fly away and the Oracle wings person follows.... well, the Infernal escapes because he's got unlimited flight time and the oracle better make sure he's not too high up when his time expires, a danger the Infernal doesn't have.
The game isn't designed based on pvp.
Also if you're relying on flight alone to catch an enemy rather than some other means, it's already a pointless exercise and a pointless comparison.
Are you legitimately telling me that you couldn't catch someone within 15 minutes of flight time?
Especially since by 15th level, teleportation becomes common place? Or even the incredibly vast array of options a 15th level party has at their disposal to lockdown an opponent?
The game isn't designed based on pvp.
Also if you're relying on flight alone to catch an enemy rather than some other means, it's already a pointless exercise and a pointless comparison.
Are you legitimately telling me that you couldn't catch someone within 15 minutes of flight time?
Especially since by 15th level, teleportation becomes common place? Or even the incredibly vast array of options a 15th level party has at their disposal to lockdown an opponent?
I'm not talking about PvP, first of all.
Second, we're comparing two methods of obtaining wings. Other things you can do sure, you can throw Wish spells in at level 20. Wish for permanent wings, why not (probably out of the scope of a wish I know)? But, in comparing the two wing abilities, I don't feel that "other options for locking down an opponent" matter because I am comparing flight capability of the two options. If you are making a level 15+ character, you're better off going for On Dark Wings because there are no limits.
The game isn't designed based on pvp.
Also if you're relying on flight alone to catch an enemy rather than some other means, it's already a pointless exercise and a pointless comparison.
Are you legitimately telling me that you couldn't catch someone within 15 minutes of flight time?
Especially since by 15th level, teleportation becomes common place? Or even the incredibly vast array of options a 15th level party has at their disposal to lockdown an opponent?
I'm not talking about PvP, first of all.
Second, we're comparing two methods of obtaining wings. Other things you can do sure, you can throw Wish spells in at level 20. Wish for permanent wings, why not (probably out of the scope of a wish I know)? But, in comparing the two wing abilities, I don't feel that "other options for locking down an opponent" matter because I am comparing flight capability of the two options. If you are making a level 15+ character, you're better off going for On Dark Wings because there are no limits.
But the limit is superficial. You posited a hypothetical situation where Dark Wings would supposedly be better when put in direct competition(PVP) with Wings of Fire. I told you that it was highly erroneous of actual high level play. In high level play, it is almost impossible to escape from an encounter short of teleporting and even that can get locked down.
And you're not better off getting Dark Wings because ultimately it is an option that locks out others. For a 15th level Sorcerer ability, you can do better. Especially when you can get as much flight as you could possibly need from Wings of Fire.