Blasphemy!!!
Just kidding, I'll see if Zherog (John Ling) can hop on and give his 4 ha-pennies' worth.
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Howdy. Some interesting ideas. I would need to dig deep to look for issues and such, but here's a few quick comments back. Maybe this gives you more to think about, or even new ideas.
Some ideas that I am kicking around but do not have worked out just yet.
1. Half locations for castles that are only 1 deck tall. This way you can add them for just 1 hull location.
I don't see an issue out of that; I would just leave it as 20x20 and not worry about it, though. Just use the top 10' for the railings, moorings for sails and beams, and so forth.
2. Make minimum speed for a sailing ship 3. It can still go slower in tactical sense by striking sails or sudden deceleration but if you can not make a minimum base speed of 3 then the ship may not be sailed.
As a house rule, I think this is completely OK. For the book itself, our goal was to allow flexibility with a half an eye toward realism. And so allowing for a ship to have a speed of 1 or 2 was something we wanted to allow, even if it would really suck that your ship is as slow as a dwarf (in the case of speed 1).
3. If a sail is struck (2 rds 6 crew or 1rd under the leadership of a mate) it will no longer contribute to speed but the ship will not lose dex. This would allow the navigator to use a different maneuver and still slow the ship.
I'd be curious to hear how this plays out - whether it gives the Navigator more options or less, for example.
4. If a one is already clumsy and would lose another class they instead lose 1 speed and take an additional -2 on prof sailor checks. The opposite if one goes above perfect.
Again, this is an interesting idea. I'd love to hear how it plays out if you try it.
I thought it was ridiculous that a the most cost efficient way to transport cargo was by using 1 hull and 2 rigging and weigh it down with a heavy load and a broad hull. With these rules a cargo hauler would have to be size 12 before it could be made out of reinforced oak with broad hull and carry a heavy load. A normal hull can not carry a medium load until size 2 and heavy until 4. Sleek hulls allow heavier loads to be carried sooner as does darkwood but I am not sure what the most efficient carry is yet.
So, when you say "size 2" or "size 12" and so on, I assume you're referring to the number of Hull Locations. If you meant something else, I apologize for misunderstanding.
A ship with 1 broad Hull Location and 2 Rigging Locations has a Str of 35 and a Dex of 11; the base weight of that ship is 6,000 lbs. (3,000 for the broad Hull Location, 1,500 for each Rigging Location). A ship with a 35 Str has a light load of 25,536 lbs, a medium load of up to 51,072, and a heavy load of up to 76,608. So that's the math for 1 Hull Location ship; whether that's the most efficient or not probably depends on how you define efficient, I guess.
Let's do a few more: 1 regular Hull Location and 6 reinforced oak broad Hull Locations.
1 Regular: This ship weighs 5,000 lbs., has a Str of 31 and and Dex of 11. It's light load is 14,688; medium is 29,376; heavy is 44,064.
6 reinforced oak broad Hulls: This ship weighs 24,000 lbs before any cargo or such is put aboard. Its light load is 66,432; medium is 133,864; heavy is 199,296.
So I think either I'm completely misunderstanding you're point, or you're missing something in the rules that makes you think a reinforced oak broad Hull can't carry a lot o' cargo...
I am also considering scrapping maneuverability entirely and having the dex mod effect profession sailor checks with penalties to speed if dex goes below 1 or over 23. Since items that effect maneuverability would instead grant + or - 4 to dex AC and reflex would be easier to get. Some items may be changed to instead add to speed or prof sailor checks of some combination.
Well, first, Dex can't go below 1. (Page 11, Dexterity: "Regardless of the number of Rigging and Hull Locations, your ship’s Dexterity cannot be less than 1.")
That aside, Maneuverability rating is, in effect, nothing more than a bonus or penalty to Profession (sailor) checks to make the ship move in a way other than a straight line. A Clumsy ship gets a -10, an Average ship gets a +0, and a Perfect ship gets a +10, for example. If you swap those for the actual Dex mod, your checks are going to be easier for ships with low Dex and harder for ships with high Dex.
For example, as designed a ship with a Dexterity of 2 has a -10 to Profession (sailor) checks; if you ditch that and go with the actual penalty, it would instead have a -4 penalty. So any checks are that much easier.
Conversely, if your ship has a 21 Dex, it gets a +10 to Profession (sailor) checks, while the Dex score itself would grant a +5. - making checks harder. (If you can get the Dex to a score of 32 or higher, this system would result in a better bonus.)
So, with all that: you are, of course, free to house rule as you like. But be aware that we designed everything around what exists - we expect most ships to have a penalty of -5 or -10 for example, and we expect very, very few to ever have a +10 bonus. So changing this system would affect (for example) the DC of all the checks on Table 6 (page 14).
Thinking adding MW rigging that can add +1 to +5 on sailing checks and a rudder that only helps the navigator.
MW rigging is a fantastic idea, though I wouldn't go above +1. I'd also suggest lowering the weight. Anything above a +1 ought to be magical in nature, in my opinion.
As for the rudder... that's sort of funny. The original files I received had the option to buy a rudder. I asked Lou about that, assuming that every ship had one. He agreed - every ship would have a rudder, so no need to list it separately. So we took it out. Our base assumption is that every ship has a rudder.
However, it's also an ideal piece of the ship to enchant with magic to get amazing effects.
Broad hulls 25 feet wide and sleek hulls a 15. All ships gain and extra 10 length on the front and back of the ship but it is all structure and grants no internal space.
Different sized locations will probably work OK at your table, but for simplicity we went with everything being 20x20.
I don't see any problem with declaring all ships to have an extra 20 feet of length in unusable space - 10 on the fore and 10 on the aft. The only caveat I'll give you there is that if your players are building the ship from scratch, make sure to charge them for it - don't give that extra structure away for free.
Thanks, I am trying to find a way to make 6 hull ship broad without dropping the speed below 3. I think ship location that reduces the penalty for a heavy load from 3 speed to 2. I think that if I do it right a broad hulled size 8 ship will be the most cost efficient but smaller ship will be cheaper.
Hmmm... If your ship has 6 Hull Locations, you're entitled to have 5 Rigging Locations. So let's use all of 'em.
This ship has a base weight of 25,500 lbs. Its Str score is 40 (30 +6 Hull Locations +4 broad) and a Dex of 9 (10 +5 Rigging -6 Hull). Its base speed is 7, into the wind speed is 3, and with the wind speed is 14. It has a light load of 51,072; a medium load of 102,144; and a heavy load of 153,216. If we burden her with a heavy load, she takes a -3 penalty to her base speed - so this falls within your parameters - it has 6 broad Hull Locations and the base speed is 4.
My hunch is that this statement on 11 is causing the problem:
Dexterity (Dex) = 10 + the number of Rigging Locations – the number of Hull Locations. A ship’s Dexterity will be further modified by whether you opted to build with Sleek (+4) or Broad (–4) Hulls.
(emphasis mine)
This is incorrect, and is a relic from a draft prior to the final version. Broad Hull Locations grant a +4 bonus to Str and reduce maneuverability rating by one step. Sleek Hull Locations reduce Str by 4 and increase maneuverability rating by one step. Table 3 on Page 10 - and the accompanying text - is correct.
Why do engines not add to dex? By current rules one may not build an engine only ship larger then size 9.
Why do you say so? I can't find anything that was intentional about this. Remember this rule on Page 11:
The Dexterity of a ship determines its maneuverability rating. You also apply your ship’s Dexterity bonus (but not penalty) to the Armor Class (AC) of its Locations. Regardless of the number of Rigging and Hull Locations, your ship’s Dexterity cannot be less than 1.
(emphasis mine)
So I can build a ship with 20 Hull Locations and 0 Rigging Locations. It's Dex score is still 1. Given that you were very specific about 9 Hull Locations, I suspect maybe you're missing this passage. But if it's something else, please let me know.
What would you guys think of a few short expansions on this as pdfs?
As a GM who's only just kicked off a Skull & Shackles campaign, I'd love expansions on the Fire As She Bears system.
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So I found some think odd in the math of ships. Gaining hull locations makes it more expensive to carry cargo until size 6. After that it decreases forever. Bigger is not better until size 18.
Hmmm, interesting. Would you mind sharing your math? It'll save me the time of having to go and reproduce it. ;)
By the size rules a size 1 ship would not be colossal even with the extra length I grant to ships. A size 2 ship only qualifies because of the extra length.
This is correct, and is an... unfortunately remnant from the very original draft I inherited. There was so much I needed to re-do and fix that I just took for granted that all Locations were Colossal without verifing it.
After it was pointed out to us shortly after the book was released, Lou and I decided that we'd leave it as-is and continue to treat each Location as Colossal. (And do note: the ship as a whole isn't really an entity; even in combat, it's broken down to Locations.) We decided that because it as so embedded in the book by that point, but also because we opted to do away with the size penalty to AC anyway.
I also want to start dex at 11 so that ships of up to size 4 can have maintain average maneuverability based on dex. It also means that a sleek size 2 ship made of darkwood can have a perfect maneuverability and that is just cool in my book.
Very reasonable. In fact, quite nifty.
I did some math with drop maneuverability classes and it turns out they are good idea. The things I thought it would change are better served by simply starting with a dex of 11.
Also discovered that sleek hulled ship can not carry itself without going into a medium load if darkwood or silk ropes are not used. With silk ropes the light loads can be as low as 108 on a 6 hull ship.
I think I will solve this problem by reducing the weight of rigging to 1000 pounds.
I'd love to see the math here, too, if you wouldn't mind. If it's easier to show the math by sharing a spreadsheet, and you don't mind, you can send it to me at zherog at yahoo dot com.
Wow... how much would a ship made entirely of Darkwood COST?
Totally worth the cost, I'm sure.
Open Office is fine; and actually, if your house rules aren't too extensive, would you mind leaving it in and just add a note as to what they are? I'm always curious how people mod systems, and what effects those mods have. ;)
Good questions!
How did you guys generate stats for your crew members? I can not seam to duplicate them with NPC classes.
Can you give me one or two examples, and I'll look at my notes, spreadsheets, etc tonight to see what we did?
When a mate grapples a ship does he use his CMB or the ships?
Is there any penalty or bonus for having or not having crew help you with this?
Do the hull sections of each ship make a difference like they do in crossing the boards?
- Ship's CMB
- It's vaguely assumed the mate has crew working the grapple attempt. As I recall, we didn't say how many were needed; that's something we can revisit if necessary. In the interim, I'll poke Lou and see what his suggestion is for the minimum number of crew needed for this.
- I may have to go re-read. Certainly, more Hull Locations increases the ship's Strength, which factors into its CMB. I'll add this to the list of stuff I'll be looking at for all your questions.
With crossing of the boards only the captain can try and break free, is this also true when a mate grapples the ship?
I suggest using the mates CMB with a +1 for every 3 crewman that assist. A mate can almost over come the size penalty this way (+7 if he uses his regular turn to throw a hook) but probably does not make up for the str difference. Base attack will be a wash. If the mate has bellow and 40 crew this might be better the using the ships CMB.
A mate attempting to break the grapple does it the same way but only the captain can use the ships CMB.
Looks reasonable, but I'll need to look closer.
In normal pathfinder rules actions must be spent to aim a siege weapon, is this rule scraped in FaSB?
Correct. The times listed on cannons in FaSB include reload, aiming, etc.
When does a ship move and whose actions does it consume? Does the officer in charge moving the ship have to be at the helm?
I would guess that pilot the ship is a naval action that either the navigator or the captain can make. This action uses the base 3 crew per location and the captain or navigator may exceed 20 crew this way and do not need LOS or adjacency to do so. They may not however command 20 other crewman.
Whoever has the helm - most likely navigator or captain - controls movement, and it takes place on his/her naval action.
Does a special maneuver use up crew or could a ship fire as she bears on the navigators turn and then gunnery mates use their turn to have gun crew reload the cannons. If so that would allow a ship to fire twice as often that would be devastating.
It uses crew. During the fire as she bears action, those crew are under the command of the navigator and so are unavailable to the gunnery mate. Next round, the gunnery mate can "pick up" those crew and use them to reload - assuming he has the capacity to command that many crew.
(Larger warships likely have a gunnery mate, who in turn has "squad leaders" (or whatever name you like) under him. The squad leaders direct the crew while taking their orders from the mate.)
Boarding actions the easy way. For each crewman that boards an enemy ship make that many crew unavailable to that ship unless a mate use the repel boarders action and leads enough crew to counter the boarders. Crew man fight to standstill (mechanically speaking) but officers may target them to remove them form the battle with their...
Nice idea. You could also allow the enemy mate to command his crew not to repel the borders. That way, if the SS Minnow is low on crew and their options are to either fend off the boarding weresharks or work the sails to help the navigator, the mate has to make a tactical choice while still having an easy resolution.
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ok, my turn to weigh in!
Good questions!
How did you guys generate stats for your crew members? I can not seam to duplicate them with NPC classes.Can you give me one or two examples, and I'll look at my notes, spreadsheets, etc tonight to see what we did?
I used Hero Labs for most of mineWhen a mate grapples a ship does he use his CMB or the ships?
Is there any penalty or bonus for having or not having crew help you with this?
Do the hull sections of each ship make a difference like they do in crossing the boards?- Ship's CMB
- It's vaguely assumed the mate has crew working the grapple attempt. As I recall, we didn't say how many were needed; that's something we can revisit if necessary. In the interim, I'll poke Lou and see what his suggestion is for the minimum number of crew needed for this.
Winging it without assessing the mechanical impact mathematically, I'd at least temporarily house rule that it takes half the crew that operates/can operate in the location. So if you have, on average, 20 crew, it'd take half of them to secure that location to the concomitant enemy location in a grapple. Seems reasonable, right? Half the crew to grapple the enemy ship location across from you, half to jump over and attack, followed by the first half that were securing the ships together.
We definitely have to refine that, but that's what I would suggest to John as a place to start.
- I may have to go re-read. Certainly, more Hull Locations increases the ship's Strength, which factors into its CMB. I'll add this to the list of stuff I'll be looking at for all your questions.
With crossing of the boards only the captain can try and break free, is this also true when a mate grapples the ship?
I suggest using the mates CMB with a +1 for every 3 crewman that assist. A mate can almost over come the size penalty this way (+7 if he uses his regular turn to throw a hook) but probably does not make up for the str difference. Base attack will be a wash. If the mate has bellow and 40 crew this might be better the using the ships CMB.
A mate attempting to break the grapple does it the same way but only the captain can use the ships CMB.Looks reasonable, but I'll need to look closer.
More specifically, whomever ordered the maneuver and is commanding the ship should be able to try and break free. On principle, the rules are not intended to interfere with the cinematic action; so we don't want to interfere with the action of the captain orders a cross-the-boards, then gets shot, killed, knocked unconscious, etc. and a party member leaps up to take over and save the day! We want to support that kind of cinematic move.In normal pathfinder rules actions must be spent to aim a siege weapon, is this rule scraped in FaSB?Correct. The times listed on cannons in FaSB include reload, aiming, etc.
...When does a ship move and whose actions does it consume? Does the officer in charge moving the ship have to be at the helm?
I would guess that pilot the ship is a naval action
Wow, Lou. You made a mess of that post...
From Razor Coast p. 416:
Seaworthy
You have spent a great deal of your life on the high seas
and a seafarer’s life is second nature to you.
Benefit: You gain a +2 competence bonus to all
Profession (sailor) checks. In addition you gain a +2
circumstance bonus to all Acrobatics checks made to
balance while onboard a seafaring vessel of any kind, and
a +2 circumstance bonus to all vision–based Perception
checks made at sea.
At 8 hit points he isn't going to live very long. This is one of the many reasons I don't like optimized characters.
Let's start out with 30 crewman that have to have food and water for at least a month. At 5 sp each for rations it is more like 15 GP just for food. Then they need rum rations, weapons and gear. A figure of closer to 50 GP each might be more in the ball park. It is expensive running a ship. My players spent most of their first four treasure hauls paying for ship upgrades and keeping the crew happy.
You are probably right Mathius, but my figures are based on S&S. We haven't even tried FASB rules yet. The crew is of good alignment, but the captain has been forced to continue piracy in order to afford the upkeep of her ship. And their crews have been in the 50-60 range generally as they want enough to man another ship when they take it. Also sometimes they have run with two ships. The problem with your system is a 1st level eats just as much as a 5th level. S&S uses plunder rules rather than pay anyway. We have figured 1 point of plunder per 30 crew.
I don't have my books with me, but there are repair rules somewhere in FasB.
I have no commoners. Crew are generally experts or expert/warriors. Some may actually have PC classes. Commoners stay home and raise chickens and tend sheep.
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What would you guys think of a few short expansions on this as pdfs?You can add my vote for FaSB expansions.
I'm not sure what the 3rd party rules are, so I'm not sure if this is even allowable, but an expansion that converted all of the ships from the SnS path to FaSB stats would probably interest just about all of us!
Even if an expansion couldn't refer to the ships in S&S by name, for copyright reasons, it could certainly include a group of sample ships that just happen to strongly resemble the ones in S&S...
As it stands, there seems to be a distinct lack of merchant ships at the back of FASB. I don't own Razor Coast or Heart of the Razor, but I believe the sample ships are all pirates, pirate hunters and naval vessels.
Before an expansion, though, I think an errata sheet for FASB would be a good idea, with a Ship Record Sheet that matches the published rules. The current Ship Record Sheet refers to a lot of ideas that must have been dropped from the final version of the book, like Hull Drag, Maximum and Minimum Speed, and the boxes in the Rigging section for In Irons through Running.
There are actions for putting out fires but it seems extremely rare to even have a fire. How do you handle this or does it come up?
Aim for the rigging - it's more flammable. :)