Two things concern me about casters (power-level aside):
1- Save DCs are super-awful for low-level spells.
2- Metamagic is only good when it's abusable and a headache otherwise.
So I'm considering the following:
1- Spell save DCs follow the CL instead of the SL. So the formula would be, "10 + 1/2CL + Ability Mod." This way by the time you hit mid-levels, you don't feel like your lower-level offensive options are useless because they're no longer auto-savable.
2- Treat all metamagic feats the way the Spell-like Ability version works. ie: Instead of increasing spell level or casting time or both, they're usable X times per day (X being a value that shifts depending on the power of the feat - Enlarge would be more times per day than Quicken, for example).
Thoughts?
An 18th level caster's simple magic should be powerful, no? They've had 18 levels of practice, after all. ;)
As for metamagic, it has it's ups and downs. The big thing is that all the shenanigans that people use to get free metamagics would suddenly be useless (Magus' would have to actually look at their spell list instead of abusing Shocking Grasp, for example.)
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I don't think there's a problem. You have lots and lots of level 1 spells at level 18; if they were all as good as your level 9 spells that would be bizarrely OP.
You can Heighten Spell a Charm Person to increase the save DC, although at some point you have to ask why you're not using Charm Monster instead, or Dominate Person.
You can also use your high-level spell slots for attack spells, and low-level spell slots for utility spells. Most utility spells stay useful, but now that you don't need those low-level spells slots for attack spells, you can actually afford all that utility.
Meanwhile most metamagic is aimed at blasters, and as guides like the Blockbuster guide show, metamagic is really quite good already.
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Two things concern me about casters (power-level aside):
1- Save DCs are super-awful for low-level spells.
2- Metamagic is only good when it's abusable and a headache otherwise.So I'm considering the following:
1- Spell save DCs follow the CL instead of the SL. So the formula would be, "10 + 1/2CL + Ability Mod." This way by the time you hit mid-levels, you don't feel like your lower-level offensive options are useless because they're no longer auto-savable.
No. This is a major and straight powerup for casters, and any limiting factor due to spells/day is lost (not that it was a large hindrance before at mid+ levels, but it just becomes too much).
If you're going this path, at least make it something like 10 + 1/3 CL + Ability Mod, making the weakest spells stronger and the strongest spells weaker.
Also, consider how this superpowers the already incredibly powerful Persistant Spell.
2- Treat all metamagic feats the way the Spell-like Ability version works. ie: Instead of increasing spell level or casting time or both, they're usable X times per day (X being a value that shifts depending on the power of the feat - Enlarge would be more times per day than Quicken, for example).Thoughts?
Again, no. This is also a powerup, especially in combination with the previous. The rods are already usually better than the feats, and they cost a lot of cash.
If you want to empower low-level spells and the metamagic feats that are generally considered weak, without empowering the wizard even more, consider the following instead:
1. Ban metamagic rods.
2. Make save DCs 10 + 1/3th (or 1/4th) level + Ability Modifier.
3. For the metamagic feats that are considered weak, bunch them up in a "2 for 1"; "discreet spell" could give both Silent and Still possibilities (still costing one level for each), and bunch together widen and enlarge in the same way, and empower and maximize in the same way.
4. Ban stuff that decreases the cost of metamagic (such as magical lineage etc) or that grants free metamagic. Remove that part of Spell Perfection (the doubling of bonuses from other sources is enough for it to be a viable feat).
5. Make heighten spell a basic function of spells; with the static DC's, the difference is mainly penetrating globes of invulnerability and countering darkness/light etc.
6. Increase the cost of Persistant Spell to +3 levels or even +4 (needed to balance with the static DC's)
This would mean metamagic would provide options and versatility, but not increase power that much. It would make them harder to superstack, but easier to use for fun and occacional benefits.
Though of course, this is coming from the perspective that wizards aren't underpowered and don't need further boosting. You might not share that perspective of course.
It's not really a "power" thing for me - It's a quality of life thing.
Instead of lower level spells with save DCs becoming utterly useless, you can continue to use them. Higher level spells would remain superior in pretty much every way that counts, just like always, but you wouldn't feel like you wasted your time preparing Charm Person at level 15.
I guess, in essence, I think Heighten Spell is dumb. If you Heighten a Charm Person to the same level as Charm Monster, was it worth it? Absolutely not, because Charm Monster remains totally superior, even though they're both now the "same level."
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. . . I guess, in essence, I think Heighten Spell is dumb. If you Heighten a Charm Person to the same level as Charm Monster, was it worth it? Absolutely not, because Charm Monster remains totally superior, even though they're both now the "same level."
Then remove the Heighten Spell feat and allow the spell slot from which a spell is cast to set the DC. Silent Charm Person? Its cast from a second level slot so it's treated as a second level spell. This helps casters some, which is admittedly unfair, but I think it will help blasters more than most. It would also make a sorcerer or wizard casting an Extended, Persistent Charm Person have the same DC as Charm Monster. It would become a tactical choice. I think that's similar to one of the things Oenar was proposing.
You could also port over/adapt spells that sub in for metamagic if you like that idea, like Whispercast (3.5, Lords of Madness, p.129). I was reading this just yesterday... If your allowing research, picture a 1st or second level spell that is a swift cast and adds +1 to the DC and +2 to spell penetration on the next 3rd level or lower spell cast, or something like that.
Or just use spells in lower slots that don't have a save.
I think what really brought this to my mind as a "thing" was in creating the Bard I'm about to start playing.
Simply put: Early access hurts. Sure, I can have Hideous Laughter at level 1 instead of level 3, but my save DC for it will always be lower than the Wizard/Sorcerer who casts it.
Making DCs based on caster level evens the playing field for the less-than-9-level casters.
And I still haveta argue that it would just make more sense. A level 20 Sorcerer's level 1 spell should be much more potent than a level 1 Sorcerer's level 1 spell, and by more than just the +2.5 that increasing Cha over 20 levels or WBL will bring to the table.
(And let's be fair - 3rd Ed/Pathfinder aren't "caster edition" because Casters are too good; It's because everyone who isn't a caster just isn't good enough. :) )
I've been leading games with that method of spell DCs for a few years now and in my experience, it isn't a problem.
I know a lot of casters out there, once they go through their top..3? levels of spells consider themselves done for the day since their lower level stuff normally wouldn't be worth the action to cast. This extends their staying power, in addition to all the other benefits you listed.
I say go for it. Though in fairness, I've yet to come up with a suitable change for Heighten Spell under this system.
No clue about the 2nd thing though.. I have no problem with metamagic feats the way they are.
Two things concern me about casters (power-level aside):
1- Save DCs are super-awful for low-level spells.
2- Metamagic is only good when it's abusable and a headache otherwise.
To address #1 (in a balanced way) I created Measured Power
You can balance the strength of your spells by tying them to your personal power, instead of the inherent complexity of the magic.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: When meditating for spell slots or preparing spells for the day, you may choose to calculate your spell save DCs as 11 + 1/3 caster level + ability modifier [Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, Cha for sorcerers, etc.] You may change methods each time you ready your spells daily, but all spells you cast must use the same method.
Normal: Your spell save DCs are always 10 + spell level + ability modifier.
Special: This feat does not apply to any spell-like abilities you may possess.
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I don't consider #2 an issue.
A level 20 Sorcerer's level 1 spell should be much more potent than a level 1 Sorcerer's level 1 spell, and by more than just the +2.5 that increasing Cha over 20 levels or WBL will bring to the table.
It will be something like 9 or 10 better at 20th level than at 1st, from ability scores, WBL, and feats. Also could be Heightened if it's important. Hey! - there's how metamagic is good in an unabusable way...
That said, with Measured Power, it would be 6 or 7 better automatically.
It will be something like 9 or 10 better at 20th level than at 1st, from ability scores, WBL, and feats.
That's kind of my point though. Remove all that wealth from the equation. You're looking at a 2-3 point difference in the difficulty of overcoming the DCs. The caster who can make demiplanes at will is barely more potent than the caster who can barely manage to get a single missile of magical force to shoot out of his fingertip. :P
If the question presented is, "Why are you a powerful caster?" The answer shouldn't be, "Because I have all the monies." It should be, "Because look at my level."(That is not to say that wealth shouldn't be able to help. But it shouldn't be "the only way" either, ya know?)
Also could be Heightened if it's important. Hey! - there's how metamagic is good in an unabusable way...
But as I pointed out above, it usually goes something like, "I could Heighten this for a better DC, or I could just use the higher level, better, version that already comes with a higher DC."
If you really do want to increase spell DCs linked to caster level, I would suggest you balancing it by increasing Save DCs linked to caster level too. That way a 20th level can more easily Charm a 1st level commoner, but it's no easier when it comes to a 20th level Fighter.
You don't find that to be sort of a non-issue?
In my experience, the party is fighting monsters - not other people or each other. There's just too much time investment involved for a GM to write up a spellcaster in all it's glory, just to watch it die.So the typical go-to is Monsters. If you want the party to deal with spells, that's what Spell-like-Abilities and "assumed casting" are for.
And, for example: A dragon just isn't going to fail it's Fort save. It just isn't.
A level 20 Wizard who started with a 20 Int and fully upgraded it to a 36 is typically going to have save DCs of 19-27 (1st through 9th level).
To show just how bad DCs really are, an Ancient Black dragon (CR16) beats every fort save from 1st through 4th level spells on a 2 or better. It makes all the same level Will saves on a 4 or better. And this is not a CR appropriate encounter! It should technically be an older dragon! And as far as colors go, Black is pretty low on the chromatic totem pole.
Repeat as necessary: Ice Linnorm. Horned Devil. Marilith. Etc.
tl;dr - As Mistah J pointed out above, low level spells quickly stop being a thing you use and end up just being wasted space on your character sheet. Because if they don't land, then why have them?
(And to the point: Not everyone wants to be a "God Wizard" [ie: All battlefield control and summoning.])
Uhm... That charm person example doesbt make sense. Even without metamagic - that us, even without pitting more effort into it - and while naked, there are huge differences.
1st level sorcerer, 20 cha:
4/day, DC16, +6 to cast in adverse conditions, +1 to penetrate SR, duration 1 hour, +5 bonus to convince, 25 ft range
20th leel sorcerer, 24 cha, sf/gsf/spell penetration:
8/day, DC 20, +27 to cast in adverse conditions,+22 to penetrate sr, duration 20 hours, rane 75 ft, +7 to convince.
Those things are not a small dofference, its pretty huge.
I think it's a mistake to assume Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus. It's just too niche since it's only going to affect a single school.
But I'll admit that's personal bias.
And of course all the things that are actually level dependent (duration, range, SR penetration, etc) are going to be better. But where as a level 1-2 encounter might actually fail that DC16 save, a level 20 encounter is going to laugh at the DC20 save.
(And that's with TWO feats invested into it! Two feats is not a small investment. If Greater/Spell Focus gave a +2, maybe that'd be something - probably not though.)
So here is a question, why should someone have the exact same chance to resist one of the weakest spells in the game and one of the strongest spells in the game?
My answer? Spell level should determine how powerful the spell's effects are. (Currently, it does). Caster level should determine how well those effects are put into reality. (In some cases [SR] it does. In others [DC] it doesn't).
Another question could be: Why not base overcoming SR on spell level instead of caster level? (Tongue-in-cheek. Obviously I think this would be a horrible idea.)