So how is option b not just "join us later"?
OPTION of joining later.Or not.Depends on a lot of things,including stability of central government.That's kinda the point of AUTONOMOUS Crumean Republic.
Who cares now?With these voting results they might as well just remove the other option entirely.
Is that article in Russian?
Yep.
having a buffer with NATO
You do realize that Russia have multiple borders with NATO countries,right?
And then look at what Russia did to every country under its control or sphere of influence just after
You mean,rebuild from COMPLETE destruction and industrialize Ukraine to the point that even now TWO western rebellious provinces account for something like 25%GDP,directly or indirectly?
Should we,maybe,talk about Kazakhstan or Belarus?GDR,maybe?
And people ask why these rebellions happen.
Round-up of non-Ukrainey articles from Counterpunch that I enjoyed:
Reagan Redux--Honduras: Gangsters’ Paradise by NICK ALEXANDROV
Punishment or Witness Elimination? Confessed Brazilian Torturer Found Murdered by MICHAEL UHL
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Yes, however, Ukraine as part of NATO would put a NATO allied country on the entirety of Russia's western front. Given Russian experiences with Facist regimes in the past I don't think Putin likes that idea too much and I do not blame him! Look at what the western powers did post Bolshevik revolution and what Germany did during WWII for reasons why he would like that buffer state of Ukraine to remain.
So how is option b not just "join us later"?OPTION of joining later.Or not.Depends on a lot of things,including stability of central government.That's kinda the point of AUTONOMOUS Crumean Republic.
Who cares now?
With these voting results they might as well just remove the other option entirely.
Is that article in Russian?Yep.
having a buffer with NATOYou do realize that Russia have multiple borders with NATO countries,right?
Buffer state? Ukraine is russia's Texas.
As Obama attempts to ease restrictions on military aid to Cairo...
Egypt is a Police State: Senior Muslim Brotherhood Member Condemns New Mass Death Sentence for 683
Ukraine is russia's Texas.
Texas as in food supplier?
Bad news
So,a lot of things happened.Mostly bad things.
Government forces tried to storm both Slavyansk and Kramatorsk,to substantial casualties from both sides.Like,10+ substantial.At least three
helicopters were shot down.One with some kind of RPG(requires substantial skill),two with ATGMs.
And then there was Odessa.Something like 30+people gassed.On cameras,no less.
And last,but not least,Russia rebased something that looks like strategic bomber squadron with escorts,including at least two Tu-160s,to Crimea.
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I just can't wait till we start getting called "Capitalist Dogs" again (well, by somebody other than Anklebiter). Come on Cold War, I miss you from my childhood days.
"MR. PUTIN, BUILD UP THIS WALL!"
LOL, I love being part of the CIA program which, is the internet.
More likely to be called fundamentalist nutbutter...
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So,a lot of things happened.Mostly bad things.
Government forces tried to storm both Slavyansk and Kramatorsk,to substantial casualties from both sides.Like,10+ substantial.At least three
helicopters were shot down.One with some kind of RPG(requires substantial skill),two with ATGMs.
And then there was Odessa.Something like 30+people gassed.On cameras,no less.
And last,but not least,Russia rebased something that looks like strategic bomber squadron with escorts,including at least two Tu-160s,to Crimea.
Can we just have the soviet union back?
Can we just have the soviet union back?
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So why is the usa driving a wedge between Russia and Ukraine? Because the first peoples of Australia were pre-fire and pre-stone age people with Russian/ukrainians names like:
Ngulwun: Alvin
Bulya: ilya
Bulla: ella
Wulgaru: olga
Tulu: tula
Thats right...they have seventy five thousand years of history. Looking for old names for your children? These stomp the sumarians and Babylonians in the dirt. Ngulwun means chief of clan.
Meh...I prefer the old USSR. It had awesome down to an artform.
Many people would prefer the old USSR.
Commies get stable second place on most elections in Russia.I would not,but i understand.
no you dont
Yes,i do.Old "war films"still has more than a cult following here.40+years from release.
Speaking of which,and of war,there are two films on war of .08.One finnish(sp?),other russian.I can recommend both,but for different reasons.Russian,in parts,is very close to old-school war films of USSR.
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Meh...I prefer the old USSR. It had awesome down to an artform.
Can we just have the soviet union back?
Yeah.... like not having commercials on the tv, b/c what would they be?
"BUY STATE BREAD! OR DON'T BUY BREAD!"
"BUY STATE CHEESE! OR DON'T BUY CHEESE!"
no, the USSR was evil and awful and the world is so, so, so much better now that it is gone.
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like not having commercials on the tv,
Not having a commercials is a BAD THING?
WTH is wrong with you?|
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no you dontYes,i do.Old "war films"still has more than a cult following here.40+years from release.
Speaking of which,and of war,there are two films on war of .08.
One finnish(sp?),other russian.I can recommend both,but for different reasons.Russian,in parts,is very close to old-school war films of USSR.
Thats not it.
The new Russia doesnt have the same moral high ground the soviets earned eliminating their vile oppresive white Russian monarchy, stomping on the Nazis, and going into space.
New Russia acts like all is forgiven...come home.
My childhood memories are of a Russian sea captain who used to visit my grandparents when his ship sailed to Australia. Dropped them giant tins of caviar. My B~~*@ with new Russia is they waste time arguing with one nutbutter us president after the next when they should be landing giant space ships on the, moon to colonize. Not be distracted by crazies who think space is for gods chosen few.
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Ukrainian lefties denounce Right Sector massacre which, of course, never happened because only Kremlin-funded propaganda thinks there are fascists in Kiev and that city that starts with a "Dn"
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And then look at what Russia did to every country under its control or sphere of influence just afterYou mean,rebuild from COMPLETE destruction and industrialize Ukraine to the point that even now TWO western rebellious provinces account for something like 25%GDP,directly or indirectly?
Should we,maybe,talk about Kazakhstan or Belarus?
GDR,maybe?
And people ask why these rebellions happen.
I'm sure the millions of Ukrainians who died in the 30s courtesy of forced collectivisation, state sanctioned mass killings, withholding of food supplies, medicine and the like would disagree with what Russia has done for the Ukraine......
The new Russia doesnt have the same moral high ground the soviets earned eliminating their vile oppresive white Russian monarchy, stomping on the Nazis, and going into space.
Moscow wasn't built in a single day(russian proverb).
I'm sure the millions of Ukrainians who died in the 30s courtesy of forced collectivisation, state sanctioned mass killings, withholding of food supplies, medicine and the like would disagree with what Russia has done for the Ukraine......
They died for one single solitary reason.
They were unwashed,uneducated peasants who didn't listen to smart,educated people.Of course,i know that when you withhold grain from government to sell it at a black market with 10.000% markup,you don't bury it in the ground,because this and lots of other things,
BUT THEN,I WENT TO SCHOOL!
These idiots literally poisoned at least a million people,themselves included,to death.And not an easy death at that.
A man in the Soviet Union saves up enough to finally buy a car.
Salesman: Your car will be delivered to your home 20 years from today.
Man: Will that be in the morning or afternoon?
Salesman: It is 20 years from now, what does it matter if it is in the morning or afternoon?
Man: Well the plumber is coming in the morning.
Salesman: Your car will be delivered to your home 20 years from today.
You see,i come from the family of scientists.My wife,too.
Both of our families owned cars since the time USSR started manufacturing them.Because science!For normal factory worker,on the other hand,things were substantially harder.
like not having commercials on the tv,Not having a commercials is a BAD THING?
WTH is wrong with you?
yeah there's like a bazillion horrible things with the soviet union, and the one thing he mentions is "no ads". i mean, yeah....
yeah there's like a bazillion horrible things with the soviet union, and the one thing he mentions is "no ads". i mean, yeah....
Especially when there were ads)I even remember some!)
I'm sure the millions of Ukrainians who died in the 30s courtesy of forced collectivisation, state sanctioned mass killings, withholding of food supplies, medicine and the like would disagree with what Russia has done for the Ukraine......They died for one single solitary reason.
They were unwashed,uneducated peasants who didn't listen to smart,educated people.
Of course,i know that when you withhold grain from government to sell it at a black market with 10.000% markup,you don't bury it in the ground,because this and lots of other things,
BUT THEN,I WENT TO SCHOOL!
These idiots literally poisoned at least a million people,themselves included,to death.And not an easy death at that.
Part of me is hoping your answer is an attempt at being facetious. In actual fact it comes across as plain out ignorant and offensive - you really are blaming anywhere between 3 and 10 million deaths on the victims as opposed to the Soviet state and its policies? Your moral compass is so out of whack you need help.
3 and 10 million deaths
1 million.And yes.And i read actual archives,because Glastnost.
Government policies,namely,confiscation of infected crops and burning it(Yes,burning crops!During famine!),saved far more lives.Same government policies prevented famine two years later,during an actual
drought(you know,drought that didn't happened in 1932!)
There are bazillion thing that are wrong with the USSR.
Actions in early 30s in Ukraine weren't.
And common folk knew that.Which is why GPW was won mostly by belarussians and ukrainians.
victims
Perpetrators.Victims are those who bought said grain on the black markets.
At 5 rubles/pound surely there were not a lot of them.I hope.
yeah there's like a bazillion horrible things with the soviet union, and the one thing he mentions is "no ads". i mean, yeah....like not having commercials on the tv,Not having a commercials is a BAD THING?
WTH is wrong with you?
You didn't see the TV shows...
If you had, you'd understand the rejoicing for commercials....
:P
You didn't see the TV shows...
Believe me,i did.Then i sold my TV and never bought another one.
3 and 10 million deaths1 million.And yes.And i read actual archives,because Glastnost.
Government policies,namely,confiscation of infected crops and burning it(Yes,burning crops!During famine!),saved far more lives.
Same government policies prevented famine two years later,during an actual
drought(you know,drought that didn't happened in 1932!)
There are bazillion thing that are wrong with the USSR.
Actions in early 30s in Ukraine weren't.
And common folk knew that.Which is why GPW was won mostly by belarussians and ukrainians.victimsPerpetrators.Victims are those who bought said grain on the black markets.
At 5 rubles/pound surely there were not a lot of them.
I hope.
Even Soviet archives put the figure way higher than your figures so I don't know where you get your figures. I prefer to rely on reliable studies than plucking figures out of the air. The Russian government acknowledges a figure in the region of 7-10 million.
Don't you mean how people weren't allowed to eat the crops they grew, forcing them to grow cash rope instead of food, were banned from leaving their districts, denied access to medicine and emergency food aid. It's not surprising some people resorted to eating contaminated grains.
You really think there was nothing wrong with the Soviet government's policies surrounding land reform and the like in the 30s? Seriously? I'd love to hear your views on Pol Pot's regime in 1970s Cambodia, Rwanda in the 90s and a whole host of other human induced human disasters. (And that was sarcasm, I shudder to think what nonsense you'd come up with).
Even Soviet archives put the figure way higher than your figures
Do not mistake "research"by "scientists" with archives.Figure of 10m was
first sounded by Leo Kuchma,first ukrainian president,and it's a very funny story how he did come up with that number.LOTS of rounding up were involved.The Russian government acknowledges a figure in the region of 7-10 million.
They will acknowledge anything that suits present agenda.I prefer facts.
They are substantially harder to change than agendas...or governments,for that matter.Also,Ukraine was by far not the only affected province.So,to numbers.Statistics is awesome thing.You see,people die all the time.Even now.NOW!But there are deaths that can't be explained by
statistics.First a few thousand,then a hundred thousand,peaking at 800+k
in winterspring 1933.Unexplained deaths.
Well,i will explain.In great detail!
Don't you mean how people weren't allowed to eat the crops they grew
So...much....propaganda!
This is also a lie.You see,family was allowed to keep crops to seed and toeat,but they were forced to sell the rest at government-dictated price.
Which was something like ruble per ten kilograms.
emergency food aid
Also a lie.But then,we know that cause of deaths was not famine.It was poisoning on GRAND scale.
It's not surprising some people resorted to eating contaminated grains.
A little history lesson.You see,normal peasant family back there was able to
grow enough to seed,eat,and a little to spare.But Ukraine had superb soils,so there were substantial numbers of wealthy peasants,who grew a LOT more.Those peasants saw potential mad dollarz in selling grain at black market at prices of 3-5 rubles per kilograms,but there was a little problem.Inspectors knew how much grain
those peasants were allowed to keep,and if check-up turned out more than that,repercussions may follow.Keep in mind that Civil War was not yet forgotten.
So wealthy peasant needs to hide the grain!Normal peasant and wealthy,but honorable didn't(they have nothing to hide).
He hides it in the ground somewhere nearby,and gradually sells his stock that he has officially.
And then,in the winter,he digs up stashes and uses it to feed himself
and his family.And maybe sell some of it.
And then they all die horribly.Because when you eat infected grain for 3
months,that's what happens.
You really think there was nothing wrong with the Soviet government's policies surrounding land reform and the like in the 30s?
There were a lot thing that were wrong,but not actions taken in response to crisis of 33.And common folk knew that.
In the end,survivors were united into collective ownerships(kolhoz),modernized,and actual droughtin 34 didn't cause substantial spikes in statistics.
And ten years later same survivors stopped the nazis.
So everything turned out more or less OK.Exept for antisoviet elements,stupid idiots,and normal folks who were caught in all that.
I'd love to hear your views on Pol Pot's regime in 1970s Cambodia, Rwanda in the 90s
I am not qualified to have a view on them.And looks like neither are you.
So your saying that the USSR didn't collapse due to being economically unviable
Yes.It collapsed because THIS version of planned economy had exactly zero safeguards against stupidity.And in the late eighties was run by people who understand basic economy far worse than average american.
Chinese were smarter.Even Vietnamese were smarter!countries couldn't have recovered economically
They wouldn't exist at all as sovereign countries.Kinda the reason for topic.
they needed the USSR's help to be able to modernise?
Yep.But then,entire USSR had to be industrialized.These factory workers needed food,so you need heavy mechanization.So it was mutually beneficial arrangement.In theory.
Well Ukraine seemed to be doing fine
Only if you are blind.
It is,literally,one of the worst ex-soviet republic to live in.And it inherited best soil,best military and best industry of them all,and none of the debts.
Not sure if it makes the place worse than the 'Stans' to an objective mind though.
Kazakhstan is actually a far better place.
And unlike some stans,it isn't part of RF.But then,you have Tajikistan,and life there is not good.
It's what he was told
I don't like being TOLD something.
Like i mentioned,I WENT TO SCHOOL.I learn,check and doublecheck.
Superior Ukrainian position was so obvious that there were pamflets(sp?)in support of the independence that showed it.
You can easily google it,but no,you blame all on Kremlin-sponsored propaganda.
Yeah, Ukraine was doing great. That's why IMF and Eurasian bloc were making competing billion-dollar bailout offers.
Yeah, Ukraine was doing great. That's why IMF and Eurasian bloc were making competing billion-dollar bailout offers.
Also russian bailout offer which was in force before the coup.
Even Soviet archives put the figure way higher than your figuresDo not mistake "research"by "scientists" with archives.Figure of 10m was
first sounded by Leo Kuchma,first ukrainian president,and it's a very funny story how he did come up with that number.LOTS of rounding up were involved.
You really are clueless. Where do you think researchers go to get the raw data for their research? Archives maybe? It's not as though they could go and interview millions of dead Ukrainians for some first hand accounts.
The Russian government acknowledges a figure in the region of 7-10 million.They will acknowledge anything that suits present agenda.I prefer facts.
They are substantially harder to change than agendas...or governments,for that matter.Also,Ukraine was by far not the only affected province.
So,to numbers.Statistics is awesome thing.You see,people die all the time.Even now.NOW!But there are deaths that can't be explained by
statistics.First a few thousand,then a hundred thousand,peaking at 800+k
in winterspring 1933.Unexplained deaths.
Well,i will explain.In great detail!
Given figures come from resources like Soviet era government archives - which are likely to grossly understate fatalities - the agenda of modern governments are irrelevant.
AS for Ukraine not being the only areas affected... well we could go into Soviet policies towards other ethnic minorities and it is equally appalling, maybe just not on the same scale as in the Ukraine.Don't you mean how people weren't allowed to eat the crops they grewSo...much....propaganda!
This is also a lie.You see,family was allowed to keep crops to seed and to
eat,but they were forced to sell the rest at government-dictated price.
Which was something like ruble per ten kilograms.
You are hardly one to talk about propaganda. Everything you have said reads like it has come straight from the Soviet era Apologists handbook
emergency food aidAlso a lie.But then,we know that cause of deaths was not famine.It was poisoning on GRAND scale.
Then I'd love to know where you get your information about how the deaths were actually poisoning. Because according to you we can't trust researchers, archives or anything else. Where exactly are you getting this information? After all a simple Google search with the relevant key words should be enlightening.
It's not surprising some people resorted to eating contaminated grains.A little history lesson.You see,normal peasant family back there was able to grow enough to seed,eat,and a little to spare.
But Ukraine had superb soils,so there were substantial numbers of wealthy peasants,who grew a LOT more.Those peasants saw potential mad dollarz in selling grain at black market at prices of 3-5 rubles per kilograms,but there was a little problem.Inspectors knew how much grain those peasants were allowed to keep,and if check-up turned out more than that,repercussions may follow.Keep in mind that Civil War was not yet forgotten.
So wealthy peasant needs to hide the grain!Normal peasant and wealthy,but honorable didn't(they have nothing to hide).
He hides it in the ground somewhere nearby,and gradually sells his stock that he has officially.
And then,in the winter,he digs up stashes and uses it to feed himself
and his family.And maybe sell some of it.
And then they all die horribly.Because when you eat infected grain for 3
months,that's what happens.
I'm not disagreeing Ukraine was agriculturally rich. You seem to be wilfully ignoring a whole range of well documented Soviet policies and programs that created the situation that led to the deaths of millions and just focusing on one aspect.
You really think there was nothing wrong with the Soviet government's policies surrounding land reform and the like in the 30s?There were a lot thing that were wrong,but not actions taken in response to crisis of 33.And common folk knew that.
In the end,survivors were united into collective ownerships(kolhoz),modernized,and actual drought
in 34 didn't cause substantial spikes in statistics.
And ten years later same survivors stopped the nazis.
So everything turned out more or less OK.Exept for antisoviet elements,stupid idiots,and normal folks who were caught in all that.
If you really think there was nothing wrong with Soviet policies in the 30s - or any other decade for that matter - then you need to go back into your fantasy land and not try to debate and discuss politics.
And "united in collective ownership" is such appalling double speak even George Orwell couldn't have thought up such a term.
As for the survivors stopping the Nazi onslaught, that opens a whole area of double spew. You do know that in many areas the Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberators and it was largely the stupidity of the Germans that prompted much of the Ukrainian resistance.
I am not qualified to have a view on them.And looks like neither are you.
I'd love to hear your views on Pol Pot's regime in 1970s Cambodia, Rwanda in the 90s
You have no idea what I am qualified to have a view on. But I can discuss both situations, along with a range of other 20th century genocides, in great detail, having read multiple scholarly, governmental and intelligence reports and assessments on them, spoken with people with first hand experience - you know, all the things that people who want to have a well informed and objective view on an issue do.
Where do you think researchers go to get the raw data for their research?
"Scientists"that come out with figures like 7-10m?They pull it straight out of their [censored].
Given figures come from resources like Soviet era government archives
No.Because,you see,there is statistics.Not some documents labeled"casualties from famine of 1933"written by somebody-paid "scientist".
Statistics don't lie.We have births X and deaths Y in one year,and births X-something,deaths Y+1m in the next one.Understatement and overstatement happens in propaganda,not in documents meant for internal use.Which is where your problem is.So.Much.Propaganda.
Then I'd love to know where you get your information about how the deaths were actually poisoning.
Reports that i personally read that describe the situation in which family is found dead from "hunger",but without symptoms,and on the property of said family 100-200-500 kilograms of grain is found buried.And this family is the only one dead in the village.
Numerous reports.More numerous then i have patience to read.well we could go into Soviet policies towards other ethnic minorities
We could.After you read Stalin's take on these.
You do know that in many areas the Ukrainians
Statistically insignificant number.And,of course,actual Poles from annexed parts.But by some(stretched,obviously)reports more ukrainians died in the war than jew.So,you know,a few million lost in WW1,then a few in civil war,then 10m in 33,then 3-5-7 in WW2.And then they die out.
Exept it isn't what happened,and in 1990 it was one of the most populous provinces of USSR.If you really think there was nothing wrong
Can you stop with the broad generalizations?
I can said for the third time,a lot of thing were wrong.But you know so little about things that happened there that you even less qualified than me to discuss it.And you telling me about Orwell.