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This is the first time someone has run a Master Summoner. We're finding it is an annoying class. Not so much because of the summoning ability, but because of the exploitative nature of the summons.
Some examples:
1. Lantern Archons: There name should be "Bane of Any Creature with Low Touch AC."
At lvl 10 the EVIL (I emphasize this because of the absurdity) Master Summoner summons in Lantern Archons to kill paladins (any martial with heavy armor and a low dex) and dragons (specifically a good-aligned silver dragon).
Even with a +3 attack, the sheer number of Lantern Archons with flight bolstered by his bard henchmen does immense damage.
The Master Summoner with Superior Summoning summons three of these creatures in a round on average at lvl 10. He brings in a battery of Lantern Archons and fires laser beams that bypass all DR or energy resistance with the possibility of critting.
How long does this creature remain useful? I can see it remaining useful to lvl 20 given touch ACs of many dragons and powerful martial opponents in heavy armor rarely get much past 15 to 18.
Does it seem lame to anyone else that a celestial creature can damage even other good creatures like paladins and good dragons?
2. Lightning Elementals: "Master of Disarm".
What's up with the +10 disarm when charging?
These creatures are summoned a short distance away from a weapon using martial. They charge the creature disarming it. They fly, so they can come in at any angle and charge. Even an augmented Medium Lightning Elemental gets a +18 disarm when charging.
The chances of any martial standing up to 2 to 4 or more such disarm attempts is pretty poor unless they are specifically prepared to counter disarm. With the disarm ruling allowing a creature to take the weapon into its hands once disarmed, a lightning elemental disarms, takes the weapon, and flies off. There is nothing that says an elemental can't pick something up, so it does.
These tactics are rinse and repeat over and over and over again because of their effectiveness for the past 10 levels. They could seriously use some toning down. Lantern Archon energy beams should be given an energy type or at least not affect good creatures. They may seem like a moderate ability for a creature at low level, but when used in bunches by summoners this ability is nuts.
The +10 for Spark Leap should be halved. Way too much of a bonus when controlled by a player that can repeat this tactic with multiple lightning elementals any battle against armed martial opponents. Renders them near useless nearly every battle very early.
I now see why Pathfinder Society banned them. Too much cheese with summoned creatures. We've now banned them in our games. We don't mind powerful, but powerful and overly cheesy due to specific abilities of creatures is nothing we like.
A Master Summoner wanders around the battlefield with a regular invisibility spell active summoning a ton of creatures that do very specialized things that destroy enemies because these specialized attacks render them unable to effectively retaliate. Incredibly annoying class. The above two creatures are a major reason why.
I don't see Lightning Elemental on the standard Summon Monster list. Where is that from?
According to the player and the spell, the alignment limitations only apply to template creatures. They do not apply to actual celestial or abyssal creatures unless you are a divine caster with that limitation.
A lawful good wizard can summon demons and a chaotic evil wizard can summon angels. It does take on the alignment of the spell, but arcane casters are not limited by alignment descriptors. So the only limitation is that the template creatures with a asterisk (*) match their alignment. So a good caster can't summon fiendish rhinoceros and an evil caster celestial rhinoceros.
Otherwise arcane casters can summon any of the outsiders regardless of alignment.
Unless you can cite a rule that says otherwise. I couldn't find it reading the spell description.
A lantern archon cannot cast continual flame due to "Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).". Any spell with a component with a cost cannot be cast by a summoned creature as far as I read the ruling. Expensive usually applies to any component with a listed gold cost.
I don't see Lightning Elemental on the standard Summon Monster list. Where is that from?From SMII you can summon a small elemental. It doesn't state it has to be an earth, fire, water or air elemental. Lightning elementals are in the Bestiary 2.
Can you?
Has this been errata'd that elementals other than the Big 4 can be summoned or is this a house rule?
I don't see Lightning Elemental on the standard Summon Monster list. Where is that from?From SMII you can summon a small elemental. It doesn't state it has to be an earth, fire, water or air elemental. Lightning elementals are in the Bestiary 2.Can you?
Has this been errata'd that elementals other than the Big 4 can be summoned or is this a house rule?
What do you mean house ruled? Nothing in the spell creature description requires they be limited. As long as they are from Paizo books, an elemental is an elemental. It would be a house rule if you were to limit the choices to only those in the Bestiary. Every bestiary with new elementals is able to be summoned with the summon monster spell.
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Note that the Lantern Archons have a strict maximum range on those laser beams: 30ft. If they have to get that close to an enemy, the enemy can strike back. They're not protected against fire or cold AoE attacks, so many dragons can just breathe them out of the sky.
Also, while it's nice that Lanterns penetrate any resistance, their damage isn't all that high. An enemy can also try to kill the summoner first. If the summoner is invisible, decide who the monster holds responsible ("that guy with the religious jewelry looks like a caster!") instead of the summoner. Let's see how the party likes it if monsters start focus-firing to "kill the summoner".
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Lightning elementals don't have Improved Disarm, thus their disarm attempt provokes attacks of opportunity.
Flyby Attack also provokes AoOs. While the elementals gain Mobility at some point, their base AC isn't all that high.
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They're some of my favorite monsters to summon too, and they scale nicely across levels. But they do have their limitations, if you read the rules correctly. The things I outlined above don't require monsters to know what these summoned things are; they're pretty intuitive counter-tactics.
Also, disarming doesn't do much against natural weapons. The flyby tactics don't work so well indoors either, or against enemies that can fly themselves.
What do you mean house ruled? Nothing in the spell creature description requires they be limited. As long as they are from Paizo books, an elemental is an elemental. It would be a house rule if you were to limit the choices to only those in the Bestiary. Every bestiary with new elementals is able to be summoned with the summon monster spell.
Under the Summon Monster spell it says B1 which I take as Bestiary 1. So anything from B2 etc has to be a House Rule, yes?
And as far as I know for PFS its only the Big 4.And it has been rejected several times to expand the original SM listings officially.
If I have missed something please link it for me.
EDIT: As far as JJ, etc a concerned it is only B1 and the lists ahven't been officially expanded. Anything else is a house rule.
Link
What do you mean house ruled? Nothing in the spell creature description requires they be limited. As long as they are from Paizo books, an elemental is an elemental. It would be a house rule if you were to limit the choices to only those in the Bestiary. Every bestiary with new elementals is able to be summoned with the summon monster spell.Under the Summon Monster spell it says B1 which I take as Bestiary 1. So anything from B2 etc has to be a House Rule, yes?
And as far as I know for PFS its only the Big 4.
And it has been rejected several times to expand the original SM listings officially.
If I have missed something please link it for me.EDIT: As far as JJ, etc a concerned it is only B1 and the lists ahven't been officially expanded. Anything else is a house rule.
Link
Hmmm. Seems according to James Jacobs that is the intent. I assumed the source was nothing more than telling you what it is. We allow any elemental that is an actual elemental. We'll probably continue that.
Note that the Lantern Archons have a strict maximum range on those laser beams: 30ft. If they have to get that close to an enemy, the enemy can strike back. They're not protected against fire or cold AoE attacks, so many dragons can just breathe them out of the sky.
That was my bad. We've been playing that as a range increment. The damage adds up when you have ten of them.
Lightning elementals don't have Improved Disarm, thus their disarm attempt provokes attacks of opportunity.
This I confirmed later since the Lightning Elementals were sprung on the DM. Yeah. AoO from disarm attempt and movement into the reach of a creature. We'll have to remember that.
Most opponents don't have Combat Reflexes, so that isn't much of a check on the power. At higher level when they have reach, they won't provoke AoOs charging when the opponent doesn't have reach enough to attack them.
It's still extremely powerful in a party environment where all they need to do is take the opponent's weapon to put them at an insurmountable disadvantage against your party's martials. +10 is an extreme bonus.
Goose = Gander.
Challenge your party with a few Master Summoners of your own. After they wipe, ban the class.
They won't wipe most likely. The problem has to do with the Master Summoner backed up by a party.
We also use Hero Points in our campaign.One of the problems it the Master Summoner chose a feat that gets him to five hero points and took a magic item that allows him to roll to keep his hero points. He usually spends a hero point for an extra standard action to accelerate his summons. With the party keeping the opponent occupied for a few rounds he can get a lot of summons going.
A horde of lantern archons is nasty against a dragon with a low touch AC or a grounded paladin with a low touch AC. We're fighting a lot of those types of creatures in this adventure.
Also, please note that summoned creatures can't use natural attacks through a protection from (alignment) spell, and at 10th level, enemies can reasonably pre-buff with the long-lasting magic circle against X spells. Won't stop lantern archon rays, but it'll shut down the lightning elementals cold.
They won't wipe most likely. The problem has to do with the Master Summoner backed up by a party.
We also use Hero Points in our campaign.One of the problems it the Master Summoner chose a feat that gets him to five hero points and took a magic item that allows him to roll to keep his hero points. He usually spends a hero point for an extra standard action to accelerate his summons. With the party keeping the opponent occupied for a few rounds he can get a lot of summons going.
A horde of lantern archons is nasty against a dragon with a low touch AC or a grounded paladin with a low touch AC. We're fighting a lot of those types of creatures in this adventure.
Ok, so a pretty deep hole you've dug yourself, then. If you can't beat them with their own tactics, and you can't beat them with your own... the only other option is to throw the entire kitchen sink at them. Anti-magic zones, Paladin archers in cover at max range (no charge against concealed), banish spells, protect against alignment, invis-MS's waiting on the periphery to swarm them if they exit the AMZ, and drop a dragon on them just for kicks...
Also, please note that summoned creatures can't use natural attacks through a protection from (alignment) spell, and at 10th level, enemies can reasonably pre-buff with the long-lasting magic circle against X spells. Won't stop lantern archon rays, but it'll shut down the lightning elementals cold.
That spell only applies to creatures of the appropriate alignment now as far as I've read. DM is using protection from alignment spells. They usually get stripped by dispels. They do help sometimes.
Ok, so a pretty deep hole you've dug yourself, then. If you can't beat them with their own tactics, and you can't beat them with your own... the only other option is to throw the entire kitchen sink at them. Anti-magic zones, Paladin archers in cover at max range (no charge against concealed), banish spells, protect against alignment, invis-MS's waiting on the periphery to swarm them if they exit the AMZ, and drop a dragon on them just for kicks...They won't wipe most likely. The problem has to do with the Master Summoner backed up by a party.
We also use Hero Points in our campaign.One of the problems it the Master Summoner chose a feat that gets him to five hero points and took a magic item that allows him to roll to keep his hero points. He usually spends a hero point for an extra standard action to accelerate his summons. With the party keeping the opponent occupied for a few rounds he can get a lot of summons going.
A horde of lantern archons is nasty against a dragon with a low touch AC or a grounded paladin with a low touch AC. We're fighting a lot of those types of creatures in this adventure.
Those tactics will be available as we level. I'm implementing a house rule on the number of active summon monsters. Not sure why Paizo limits the regular summon to one active summon and the Master Summoner is unlimited. Eidolon is good, but not better than multiple high level active summon monster spells. They should have still been limited. I'm going to top them out at 5 at 19th level. Three at 10th. He can have a 4th a 13th level.
Not so much to slow their power down. The mind-numbing amount of time it takes for each round with a Master Summoner is becoming annoying. The war priest character started going to the couch and watching TV during the Master Summoner's turn.
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Note that the Lantern Archons have a strict maximum range on those laser beams: 30ft. If they have to get that close to an enemy, the enemy can strike back. They're not protected against fire or cold AoE attacks, so many dragons can just breathe them out of the sky.That was my bad. We've been playing that as a range increment. The damage adds up when you have ten of them.
I'm sure they do. But the maximum 30ft range reduces their power a lot. They're still good critters, but not allmighty.
Also, don't forget the penalties to ranged attacks if the target is in melee or using the party as soft cover.
Lightning elementals don't have Improved Disarm, thus their disarm attempt provokes attacks of opportunity.This I confirmed later since the Lightning Elementals were sprung on the DM. Yeah. AoO from disarm attempt and movement into the reach of a creature. We'll have to remember that.
Note that any damage you do on an AoO against a maneuver, is also a penalty to that maneuver. If you hit the (not terribly well-armorerd) lighting elemental with a twohander, his disarm check is considerably less easy.
That said, they remain two of the best choices for summoning.
Also, please note that summoned creatures can't use natural attacks through a protection from (alignment) spell, and at 10th level, enemies can reasonably pre-buff with the long-lasting magic circle against X spells. Won't stop lantern archon rays, but it'll shut down the lightning elementals cold.
Elementals are Neutral and being summoned doesn't change their alignment, so that doesn't work.
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Not so much to slow their power down. The mind-numbing amount of time it takes for each round with a Master Summoner is becoming annoying. The war priest character started going to the couch and watching TV during the Master Summoner's turn.
I would say that this is grounds to tell the player that either he finds a way to speed up, or he has to come up with a new character. If he's ruining the fun for you and other players, then something has to be done.
Apart from possible power-imbalance issues, this is one of the major reasons to ban summoners: the class is just too slow in OOC time.