Goblin Squad Member
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Bluffing is different from lying, because the expectation of your opponents is that you are not looking to reveal your true hand. A lie is a violation of the expectation that you can be trusted to tell the truth, this does not exist in poker.
I agree with this. I think the expectations of the other parties is indeed the controlling factor.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Serious business time: What if your choice was between donating $100 to an organization that provides childhood deworming treatment or mosquito netting in third-world countries, and not donating?Serious business, indeed. I worry a little that such heavily RL topics may not really be appropriate here, but I also find the question important.
For that specific case, I'm not likely to donate. In part, that's because I believe that the vast majority of money donated to such organizations is used to fund the relatively (to me) extravagant lifestyles of the "philanthropists" running such organizations, and that a significant portion of the remainder often ends up in the hands of local warlords who are actually oppressing the people I would be motivated to want to help. I also believe that the only way people can actually be saved from such oppressive circumstances is by democratic institutions, the rule of law (equality before the law), and strong property rights.
I'm also fundamentally resistant to such lines of argumentation (donate $100, feed a child for a year) because they're exploitative of emotions. The logical end of such arguments is that anything I do to improve my family's quality of life is done over the bones of dead children elsewhere that I could have helped otherwise.
If those objections are your true objections, then you are not only not alone, people who have resolved many of those issues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If those objections are your true objections, then you are not only not alone, people who have resolved many of those issues.
There is another objection I have which I find more difficult to express directly. In essence, I suppose it boils down to being thankful for the gift of life we've been given and not torturing our own souls because there is evil in the world.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If those objections are your true objections, then you are not only not alone, people who have resolved many of those issues.There is another objection I have which I find more difficult to express directly. In essence, I suppose it boils down to being thankful for the gift of life we've been given and not torturing our own souls because there is evil in the world.
My conclusion after much thought is that I don't really care about people that I have never interacted with. I found that recognizing that and evaluating how much I cared about my friends resulted in me realizing that I care about people I know far more than I thought I did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hrm...
Reddit Mods Bury Glenn Greenwald's Story On GCHQ/NSA Use Of Internet To 'Destroy Reputations' (Fair Warning: this link goes to techdirt.com and discusses some of the Snowden documents)
Is the fact that this happened evidence that the article was accurate?
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Bluffing is different from lying, because the expectation of your opponents is that you are not looking to reveal your true hand. A lie is a violation of the expectation that you can be trusted to tell the truth, this does not exist in poker.
This is why the "Call" is used to force the opponent to show his hand. It is also why, when you fold, you have no right to see what hand the bluffer actually had.
This is just my understanding of the rules of some variations of poker.
This is really the bottom line for me. If people are aware you'll be playing PFO in a "no-holds-barred" scenario, they can be wary of you and realize you will lie if need be.
So I'd be relatively alright with OOC misinformation as long as it's accomplished through Bluff vs. Sense Motive rather than a simple matter of, "Well, I've been nice to you so far and you seem nice, so I'll trust you."
In other words, if it's something that could cost you a friendship in real life, you shouldn't do it. Serious deception is a matter for in-character antics only.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Bluffing in poker is not lying at all. It is making the statement "I wager this amount."Bluffing in poker is done with the express intent to deceive and mislead others to your benefit. How is that conceptually different from lying? If your reply is to defining 'lie' as meaning strictly counter-factual statements, then you should possibly consider a career in politics or law.
EDIT: or marketing...
Because poker is a game involving incomplete information. Saying "I add this amount to the pot." isn't dishonest unless you try to add fewer chips that you say you did, and your opponent should have no belief that you are adding more information into your bets.
I have been away for a week and have just skimmed some of this thread and if I may make a couple of observations
1) This is a game it is not real life
2) In real life situations the "proper course" is rarely as clear cut as the "telling the Nazi's I am hiding ann frank under the stair case" most situations people are making decisions based on incomplete information and they are having to make judgement calls on the veracity of that information. Frankly I think anyone condemning such people who have not stood in their shoes and had to make those calls are the worst type of armchair generals.
This is not by the way to say I condone the extension of surveillance that has happened in the last decade that is a different issue and should not be conflated with the argument about moral judgements on what to do in various situations. Judgements which often can only be known to be true or false in the light of hindsight. People however have to make these calls without the benefit of hindsight and yes sometimes they get it wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluffing is different from lying, because the expectation of your opponents is that you are not looking to reveal your true hand. A lie is a violation of the expectation that you can be trusted to tell the truth, this does not exist in poker.I agree with this. I think the expectations of the other parties is indeed the controlling factor.
This pretty much sums it up. If the intention (of GW) is that we should expect misinformation, sabotage, infiltration etc, and new players buy into this - then there is no violation of the expectation and all is fine.
For me, until I see how GW market the launched game to new players, I will caution against these type tactics except if you know exactly who you're playing with (or rather: against).@Decius: yes, yes, excellent argument. But you still imply that bluffing and overestimating your hand is exactly the same thing. But that is tangential to the main topic.