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It goes crane style---> Crane wing---> Crane riposte
Can people bailing on crane wing and crane riposte also swap out crane style?
Many people took crane style in order to get crane wing and crane riposte. Now that crane wing and crane riposte have changed can they also trade out crane style or do they need to spend PP for that? I realize that crane style itself did not effectively change, but as a feat tax for something many people no longer want its fundamental purpose has.
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I asked back when the axe fell on Crane Wing, and there's no free retrain on Crane Style. You'll have to spend the prestige to do it.
Here's the reply:
"Crane Style remains a very potent option that is not impacted directly by the recent errata. Retraining it would still cost the standard amount of Prestige Points."
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I asked back when the axe fell on Crane Wing, and there's no free retrain on Crane Style. You'll have to spend the prestige to do it.
Here's the reply:
"Crane Style remains a very potent option that is not impacted directly by the recent errata. Retraining it would still cost the standard amount of Prestige Points."
Really? HARSK laughs at crane style as underwhelming...
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I don't know, I've put my character on hold while I think about the errata, lest I make any rash decisions, and while I'm not crazy about the errata the chain of feats still works fairly well for my character. My AC is solid, and the boost can easily put me out of range for many attacks, so I'll probably keep them. I miss being able to just automatically deflect a Nat 20, but I'll live with it.
Edit: It's only really underwhelming if you were taking Crane feats on the characters with like, 10 AC.
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I don't know, I've put my character on hold while I think about the errata, lest I make any rash decisions, and while I'm not crazy about the errata the chain of feats still works fairly well for my character. My AC is solid, and the boost can easily put me out of range for many attacks, so I'll probably keep them. I miss being able to just automatically deflect a Nat 20, but I'll live with it.
Edit: It's only really underwhelming if you were taking Crane feats on the characters with like, 10 AC.
I mean crane style on its own. If you're not going any further its barely worth a trait.
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I mean crane style on its own. If you're not going any further its barely worth a trait.I don't know, I've put my character on hold while I think about the errata, lest I make any rash decisions, and while I'm not crazy about the errata the chain of feats still works fairly well for my character. My AC is solid, and the boost can easily put me out of range for many attacks, so I'll probably keep them. I miss being able to just automatically deflect a Nat 20, but I'll live with it.
Edit: It's only really underwhelming if you were taking Crane feats on the characters with like, 10 AC.
Yeah, that I agree with. That's another part of the reason I kept the chain, I'm saving up my prestige for a Pathfinder Lodge vanity, and if I'm not blowing the prestige to get rid of the first feat I might as well keep the other two. My character with the feats is an exp from retirement, so I wasn't too broken up about it. But I do find it annoying that we can get the ability to deflect ranged attacks through feats but not melee attacks.
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I mean crane style on its own. If you're not going any further its barely worth a trait.
I strongly disagree. Its somewhat situational but it is still very valuable in two circumstances
1) you REALLY don't want to be hit
2) its very easy to hit so the minus to hit isn't a significant problem.
I've got it on at least 2 characters. While I don't always use it I'm glad at least once a scenario that I have it. And its saved my characters life on at least one occassion.
Note: I still think it should be legal to retrain it, even though my characters wouldn't. The value definitely significantly changed with the Nerf.
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I mean crane style on its own. If you're not going any further its barely worth a trait.
I strongly disagree. Its somewhat situational but it is still very valuable in two circumstances
1) you REALLY don't want to be hit
2) its very easy to hit so the minus to hit isn't a significant problem.
Its a +2 to hit when fighting defensively. You'd have to fight defensively half the time to make it worth weapon focus, or 1/4 of the time to make it worth a trait.
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+2 to hit and +1 AC when fighting defensively. So 1/3 of the time to equal Weapon Focus or Dodge. And it stacks of course. If you're not going to use it at least that much, don't take the feat.
Well that's the thing, people didn't want this feat, they wanted what it lead to, crane wing and crane riposte.
I cannot recall anyone fighting defensively, ever. Its just not worth it. Valuing it for being used 1/10 times would be more than generous and it falls way short of that.
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+2 to hit and +1 AC when fighting defensively. So 1/3 of the time to equal Weapon Focus or Dodge. And it stacks of course. If you're not going to use it at least that much, don't take the feat.Well that's the thing, people didn't want this feat, they wanted what it lead to, crane wing and crane riposte.
I cannot recall anyone fighting defensively, ever. Its just not worth it. Valuing it for being used 1/10 times would be more than generous and it falls way short of that.
Strange, in my area, I do see PCs, even ones with faiurly good ACs, fighting defensively.
Heck, had one today, when I was running 2-11 The Penumbral Accords, and the PC, playing sub-tier 4-5, with a base AC of 21, with Acrobatrics trained, still got hit during the course of one single fight enough for the PC to have taken over 100 hit points of damage.
To be honest, if you aren't seing Defensive Fighting and Total Defense used very often, it may mean that either the local PCs are all being bombed through the AC roof, or that they may not understand the tactical strengths of that in combat.
Heck, I have a couple of PCs with Combat Expertise, and they do use it. And they sometimes use it with Fighting Defensively. That has saved that PC's life a couple of times, by denying either a hit, or a confirm, to some nasty beaties. Then again, while the penalties add up, tyhey are built well enough that they still have a good shot at successfully making their CMB checks against their targets.
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+2 to hit and +1 AC when fighting defensively. So 1/3 of the time to equal Weapon Focus or Dodge. And it stacks of course. If you're not going to use it at least that much, don't take the feat.Well that's the thing, people didn't want this feat, they wanted what it lead to, crane wing and crane riposte.
I cannot recall anyone fighting defensively, ever. Its just not worth it. Valuing it for being used 1/10 times would be more than generous and it falls way short of that.
My fighter fights defensively anytime he's in melee. I took Crane Style FOR the benefits of the feat. Crane Wing as being next in line was just an added bonus.
With Crane Style and 3 ranks in acrobatics, you've got -2 to hit with a +4 to AC. That's twice as good as Combat Expertise.
With the Aldori Swordlord Archetype, I've got a -0 to hit and +6 dodge bonus to AC/CMD anytime I can full round attack and fight defensively. If it's just a standard attack it's -2/+4. Either one is highly effective for what it does.
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To be honest, if you aren't seing Defensive Fighting and Total Defense used very often, it may mean that either the local PCs are all being bombed through the AC roof, or that they may not understand the tactical strengths of that in combat.
Or they DO understand that pathfinder combat rewards offense. If you're lucky that +4 ac is a 20% reduction in damage so you only take 80 points of damage. Thats vs. killing the thing faster and taking... 80 points of damage.
Either way that should be the players choice to make. They shouldn't be left holding the bag with a feat they feel (with good reason) is sub par because it used lead to bigger and better things.
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With the Aldori Swordlord Archetype, I've got a -0 to hit and +6 dodge bonus to AC/CMD anytime I can full round attack and fight defensively. If it's just a standard attack it's -2/+4. Either one is highly effective for what it does.
Ok, and if the rest of your character isn't build around fighting defensively? People can't retroactively drop out of monk levels and pick up the aldori swordlord and swap out for the trait that helps fighting defensively.
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With the Aldori Swordlord Archetype, I've got a -0 to hit and +6 dodge bonus to AC/CMD anytime I can full round attack and fight defensively. If it's just a standard attack it's -2/+4. Either one is highly effective for what it does.
Ok, and if the rest of your character isn't build around fighting defensively? People can't retroactively drop out of monk levels and pick up the aldori swordlord and swap out for the trait that helps fighting defensively.
Nope, but a -2 to hit and +4 AC for fighting defensively is still a 2 for 1 trade off, which is twice as good as Combat Expertise. All you need for that is 3 ranks in acrobatics. Even a 2 skill point class can get that in a level or two at most.
You don't HAVE to put all your eggs in one basket. Having an option to make a noticeable boost to AC on a turn is a worthwhile investment in my opinion. It can work with what else you've built your character to be.
If the only thing you built your character to be was to be able to block one attack a round, you should probably broaden your build a bit.
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Nope, but a -2 to hit and +4 AC for fighting defensively is still a 2 for 1 trade off
That assumes that hit and ac are equal, which is most definitely not the case. It is much, MUCH cheaper to improve AC than hit.
which is twice as good as Combat Expertise.
Two times zero...
Yes, combat expertise is also a feat tax to get to the good stuff.
You don't HAVE to put all your eggs in one basket. Having an option to make a noticeable boost to AC on a turn is a worthwhile investment in my opinion. It can work with what else you've built your character to be.
And why isn't that the players choice? If this feat is so great you shouldn't have to force people to like it they should be willing to get it on their own merits.
If the only thing you built your character to be was to be able to block one attack a round, you should probably broaden your build a bit.
And if people want to take that advice they can. If they want to ignore it they should be able to.