How do you handle / reward scouting ahead in society play.

[N N 959]

lastblacknight wrote:

Umm I would say no to Taking 10 on disarming a trap as you are threatened by the trap itself.

Technically you aren't threatened by the trap at all. You can sit next to the trap all day long and it will not harm you. A trap does not threaten.

Quote:

Disarming a trap (or a bomb) should never be routine...

Whether or not that is true, it really is irrelevant to the Take 10 rule. You may be misunderstanding the rule:

PRD wrote:

For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful.

This does not mean you can only take 10 on a "routine" task. It is statement to point out that one of the reasons to take 10 is so you can automatically succeed on a routine task, like unlocking a Simple lock when you have +15 on Disable Device.

[N N 959]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

One of the things you can dig up a developer post for is that you're supposed to be able to jump a pit, even if the drop would kill you, by taking 10.

Bingo.

[Relixander]

A stealth specialist can stealth while being observed, in bright light, trivializing most perception checks and minimizing or eliminating most other forms of detection. Like any other specialist when played as part of the group, and in the spirit of Society play they can be a great addition to a game. When they are played to break scenarios, trivialize other characters, and with out character they are a poor addition to a game.

As a I GM like to reward players that play well with the group, if they use scouting ahead "appropriately" (yes that is subjective and I think others have done a good job of giving examples of appropriate use), I try my best to reward them/the group (sometimes dice do not agree). When players do the opposite, I tend to remind them of the Cooperate part of being a Pathfinder, I start sharpening the pencil, so to speak, on those rules and give situational modifiers a hard look (but again sometimes dice do not agree). As a player I try to avoid that player/character.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

I played a now retired arcane trickster. More often than not the party ruined scouting/filling my niche for me. There were literally three "perfect" scenarios for what my character did, ie. skip a large part through his skills, feats and spells, and only one of those times the party let me fill my role.

There were several times I would try and scout with, between DDoor, invis, and +35 Stealth checks I felt pretty comfortable with scouting, but usually the party would insist on following 20 feet behind and messing it up.

In a home game I also played another trickster, where the party did let me fill my role. It usually resulted in us getting off nifty attacks to start with. My favorite would be dropping an explosive ruin or sepia snake sigil and getting my SA by opening with surprise.

[G-Zeus]

My primary character is a rogue who is quite capable at what he does so on occasion I do scout. Most of the time I scout one of three things happen
1: I trigger an encounter, the encounter doesn't see me but are aware of enemy presence. So go into initiative and don't meta. As GM have the enemy respond as necessary mostly by searching for the cause of alarm.

2: I get the drop on enemy and have my party prepared. I have broken multiple encounters this way where the text say "when the party is caught by surprise" but we obviously aren't. As a GM feel free to break from the scenario because your players have done well, you should be able to be quick enough on your feet to adjust tactics and such.

3: Nothing happens and I get a free sneak attack or catch the enemy flat footed for a round(for the non sneak dealing scouts). As a character who isn't insane I know that the ONLY door we haven't yet checked has the BBEG. I am stealthed encounter begins, As a GM take into account the BBEG assumes only those who he/she sees are here to kill/capture them.

[BigNorseWolf]

Well lets say the rogue does manage to sneak in and start with a sneak attack.

The rogue makes 1 standard action
Initiative is rolled - Combat works as normal
party spends at least 1, more likely 2 rounds moving up to the combat.

For the benefit of 1 standard action you've cost the party 6-12 or so actions. You've also left the other players bored not only for the scouting, but also the rounds of "I move x squares, done"

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Well lets say the rogue does manage to sneak in and start with a sneak attack.

The rogue makes 1 standard action
Initiative is rolled - Combat works as normal
party spends at least 1, more likely 2 rounds moving up to the combat.

For the benefit of 1 standard action you've cost the party 6-12 or so actions. You've also left the other players bored not only for the scouting, but also the rounds of "I move x squares, done"

Message spell solves a lot of that. If your smart, you can even get the enemy to chase you into an ambush

[BigNorseWolf]

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

Message spell solves a lot of that. If your smart, you can even get the enemy to chase you into an ambush

The message spell is problematic if you're stealthing.

You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.

[lastblacknight]

N N 959 wrote:

lastblacknight wrote:

Umm I would say no to Taking 10 on disarming a trap as you are threatened by the trap itself.

Technically you aren't threatened by the trap at all. You can sit next to the trap all day long and it will not harm you. A trap does not threaten.

Incorrect

So whilst sitting next to, or observing the trap is fine (nothing is happening, the trap hasn't gone off for a thousand years etc..)

But Disarming a Trap, involves manipulating it. If you want to unlock a door you have to insert the picks or key. Your PC is now playing with the trigger of a device and hoping it doesn't go off.

[N N 959]

lastblacknight wrote:

Incorrect

So whilst sitting next to, or observing the trap is fine (nothing is happening, the trap hasn't gone off for a thousand years etc..)

But Disarming a Trap, involves manipulating it. If you want to unlock a door you have to insert the picks or key. Your PC is now playing with the trigger of a device and hoping it doesn't go off.

And when I get behind the wheel of my car, I'm hoping someone doesn't T-bone my car when I drive through a green light. Despite all the fatal accidents that occur, millions of people Take 10 while driving their cars every day.

PRD wrote:

When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.

When a Dev says you can Take 10 jumping over a chasm so deep it will kill you, then you can certainly take 10 while disarming a trap which won't.

[Nefreet]

Just noticed something else that I think people have been doing wrong in games I've been in:

Disable Device wrote:

Try Again

Varies. You can retry checks made to disable traps if you miss the check by 4 or less, though you must be aware that you fail in order to try again. You can retry checks made to open locks.

If you take 10, and fail by 5 or more, you can't "try again". Sucks for those traps that have an automatic reset.

[kinevon]

Regarding Taking 10, and feeling "threatened" by the situation, let's consider something "simple", jumping a 5' gap with enough room for a running start.

DC is 5.

Can you take 10? Or is it determined per person?

T10:

Rogue, high Dex, trained in Acrobatics, has a modifier of +4 or higher, so no chance of failure. Doesn't even need to T10 for this, auto-succeed.

Cleric, low Dex, not trained in Acrobatics, medium armor, heavy shield, maybe even heavy encumbrance. -8 in Acro. Can they T10, even though they will fail?

Answer to both: As long as you are not in combat, or otherwise distracted, you can take 10.

Note: T10 on Disable Device is NOT ruled out by the rules. Check the skill description. T10 on using UMD is ruled out by the rules. So, unless you have a class ability, or other special, that allows you to take 10 on UMD, you can never T10.

Also, as a note, if you look at the DCs given for finding most hidden creatures, the DC is frequently based on the creature having done a T10 to hide.