My DM is going to be beginning a custom campaign soon and the way he had us figure things out for our characters I ended up picking a fighter. Can't dip in monk due to where we are in the world and from what I can tell magic is in short supply in this world... We have to be human as well.
Starting at level one, but I'm trying to build ahead. So I have a couple questions.
1 - Is there a way to up the unarmed damage dice for those who are not and cannot be monks?
2 - What would be some good build choices for getting really solid unarmed damage with a fighter?
What I have so far:
Fighter Brawler Archetype
Feats = Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attacks) and either Bleeding Attack, Power Attack or Weapon Specialization.
Stats are very good. If you need character background just ask. Currently not allowed to know what the other players are choosing. All paizo official stuff is allowed (archetypes and such).
Well, brawling armor is always a fantastic way to do this. That is a armor property that goes on light armors and it just plain gives you an untyped +2 to attack and damage on every attack. Stacks with everything, it is relatively cheap, and just a pure and simple upgrade.
You could also go for a style feat chain. Dragon style is valuable, with its increase in strength bonuses and aid in charges (and with your ability to pin down opponents with No Escape and Standstill, charges might be a valuable tool for you), or perhaps boarstyle with its early version of rend and ability to intimidate when you do so (plus it gives you all three damage types, if that ever became an issue).
My problem with damage when it comes from not being a monk is not the damage dice though. The sad thing is that you do not get the ability to avoid offhand attacks. It is a little mentioned benefit, since most people playing monks just use flurry of blows, which also avoids offhand attacks, but that small line of text is very valuable. I mean, you get full strength and power attack bonuses on all of your attacks. That is even better than double slice. It is worth it, even if it is just a dip. Are you sure you couldn't convince the GM to allow you to go on a long sidequest to find some wandering aesthetic master after a half dozen levels or so? Preferably Master of Many Styles archetype, since it is very dip and armor friendly, as well as allowing you to take advantage of two styles at once?
|
First off, Monk doesn't need to be isolated to some far off kung-fu monastery in "Asian land". Monks can easily be a fighting style used by ancient Celts fighting naked, a Renaissance dueling school, a English pugilism club, or a Greek wrestling tradition. Fluff <> Mechanics. Your DM banning it for that reason is a red flag IMO.
I'm not going to even discuss magic items since this seems to be low magic.
As for archetypes, Brawler is very good, probably the best for what you are using. There is a trait from Dragon Empires that will give you +1 to unarmed damage, but as a Brawler, I would just use a Cestus instead. Better Crit Profile and damage types.
I can see if he'll allow me to re-flavor the monk to fit the area, but the area is Vienna, Italy, 682 AD, alternate real world. Not sure what martial arts happened in that area back then.
The trait sounds like it could be useful if he uses traits. If he does, I'll probably get it and re-flavor it for the area.
I do plan on going into Dragon Style when available (i.e. 3rd level if I do brawler).
I can definitely do a cestus and light armor. When I get the gold (or if) I will most definitely do as suggested, if enchantments are allowed. Even still, cestus will be really good.
So, I've got thus far:
Feats: Improved Unarmed Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon fighting won't get me much per each punch, but if I can full attack, then an extra punch is good.
Power Attack gives a solid oomph to each of my punches. Weapon Specialization might be better starting out though.
Bleeding attack, while not stacking with itself, would go well with the brutal hitter I'm looking for.
**Update**
Just got reminded that I'm technically not human, thus I only have 2 feats for the build. I know one will be IUS so I'm thinking just using the other for two-weapon fighting.
|
Anything Gladiatorial (such as the cestus you mention) is 100% authentic for the time period, try not to think too much of the Monk as Bruce Lee, they can still be a punch/kick machine using traditional western unarmed fighting methods such as Boxing (which has been around since ancient Greek times), this should allow Monk without any issues.
Whilst the Styles all have suitably Asian names they can be flavoured as anything more suitable, it's not specifically *only* for such monks, just that that is the flavour they're initially presented with.
Anything Gladiatorial (such as the cestus you mention) is 100% authentic for the time period, try not to think too much of the Monk as Bruce Lee, they can still be a punch/kick machine using traditional western unarmed fighting methods such as Boxing (which has been around since ancient Greek times), this should allow Monk without any issues.
Whilst the Styles all have suitably Asian names they can be flavoured as anything more suitable, it's not specifically *only* for such monks, just that that is the flavour they're initially presented with.
Or go in an entirely different direction and play a Lawful Good Luchador style monk. Just say that you are a Moor who was captured and enslaved before (presumably, since I do not know your campaign) winning his freedom. Throw so many anachronisms that your GM gives up. If it goes through, then you can have fun acting as a man who lives his life like he is a superhero.
....wait....why is it that the fact that bothers me most about that approach is that your setting is 30 years too early for the Moorish invasion of what-would-be Spain/Portugal? And if your GM is putting together such a specific time period for the setting, would it be worth brownie points to bring up that fact?
I am a very young brine dragon that can change shape into human and has grown as a human, but has control over his changing still. If I were to change though, citizens and allies will probably freak out as well as draw the attention of some interdimensional dragons that are hunting me for some reason or another... apparently. While in human form, I get to keep his senses, my speed is changed to 30ft, 30ft swim and I keep the immunities. I also get pretty awesome stats.
As for monk, it's more because I'm in Italy and not in the East. I asked if I could use a monk still and just flavor it since the greeks used to use it in sport. He told me that it was just in sport and rarely in action, thus the monk is still off limits. He did give me a small boost in dice if one is using IUS. Same progression as monk non-lethally, but can be used lethally if I use brass knuckles / cestus. So, when using brass knuckles / cestus in conjunction with IUS, at level one I will have 1d6 damage + whatever damage.
Mundane fighters don't really excite me, so I guess soon I'll pick up a combat maneuver to add something else to do besides punch.
He is restricting weapons yes. But he's told me cestus and brass knuckles are available among other things and that he's given the brass knuckles the same stats as the cestus, but will use a higher unarmed damage dice as it's damage.
I just asked him if I could play the Brawler from the advanced class guide. I'd lose the fighter brawler's extra damage though...
It's not because the monk is too magical I think, more that he believes that the monk is more for the eastern region only and thus wouldn't be accessible to my character where he's at.
He said he'd look over the brawler and if he vetos that as well, I'll just go straight brawler fighter.
Have you looked at the Martial Artist monk archetype? It's pure face-punching, with none of the ki mumbo jumbo. It's quite strong, too.
|
You do realize that fighting unarmed is not an invention of eastern nations only.
French Savate, Brazilian Capoeira, Greco-Roman Wrestling, German Ringen, and many others.
Now, you have the realm of a fantasy setting, in which the world could have numerous unarmed combat fighting styles, maybe even based around fantastical creatures.
I do know that indeed... it's my DM that apparently just doesn't feel the monk fits the area of the world my character resides in regardless of flavor alterations. In any case, I tried to change his mind, but he insisted on no monks for my area. If he allows the Brawler class from the advanced class guide playtest, then I'll still have flurry, albeit starting at 2nd level.
Have you considered other options?
While the fighter nets some strong features for a few levels, so would a few levels of ranger (natural attacks or easy entry combat feats). Barbarian, also, adds a lot to any melee combatant.
I had considered other classes although punching my enemy in the face is my first preference. I had also considered the good ole two handed weapon type. Honestly though, I've been playing a wizard a lot recently in a different campaign and switching to a much more constricted, ordinary martial is making me realize how few interesting options martials hold for me.
Outside of, "I punch it in the face" or "I cut it in half with an axe" and combat maneuvers I'm finding myself unsatisfied by the mundane martial. Which kind of sucks, because I enjoy playing with this DM and I like the story he has in mind.
Perhaps had it not been lvl one and I had more room to make a character that's decent at something interesting (like a grappling expert) I'd be more excited, but as it stands, at this level and the stats I have been given (largely STR based) that at least beating enemies to death with my bare hands is kind of, sort of, interesting to me. Although it'd probably be more interesting to me if I could go full MOMS or Maneuver Master etc..
Although.. perhaps I could make a catch off-guard fighter. Since my character will largely be around the waters when he can manage it, beating enemies with random objects might be fun.
You know what? It may make this entire thread moot, but I think I'm actually going to be silly and go with the catch off-guard and something else. Maybe weapon focus if improvised weapons are able to be used with it.
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. Sorry I changed my mind last second.
Man, it's tough to spice things up with so many restrictions. If you weren't starting at level 1 I'd suggest a Barbarian build focused around Body Bludgeon: there's nothing more fun than grappling an enemy, and using him like a weapon to beat up his friends. But it takes, like, 10 levels to set that up. Alas.
Perhaps an Enforcer build would spice things up for ya? It lets you intimidate while you beat people with your bare hands, which feels pretty badass. Perhaps go for Rogue, and pick up the Thug archetype to convert excess Shaken rounds into Frightened: one good punch and the enemy will run screaming. Also grab the Scout archetype and you'll get sneak attacks as you charge after them. lol Sap Adept = bonus damage. You could toss in some Brawler if you like.
I had considered other classes although punching my enemy in the face is my first preference. I had also considered the good ole two handed weapon type. Honestly though, I've been playing a wizard a lot recently in a different campaign and switching to a much more constricted, ordinary martial is making me realize how few interesting options martials hold for me.
Outside of, "I punch it in the face" or "I cut it in half with an axe" and combat maneuvers I'm finding myself unsatisfied by the mundane martial. Which kind of sucks, because I enjoy playing with this DM and I like the story he has in mind.
Perhaps had it not been lvl one and I had more room to make a character that's decent at something interesting (like a grappling expert) I'd be more excited, but as it stands, at this level and the stats I have been given (largely STR based) that at least beating enemies to death with my bare hands is kind of, sort of, interesting to me. Although it'd probably be more interesting to me if I could go full MOMS or Maneuver Master etc..
Although.. perhaps I could make a catch off-guard fighter. Since my character will largely be around the waters when he can manage it, beating enemies with random objects might be fun.
When confronted with that problem, I prefer to start looking at reach builds. They have all the benefits of still providing you with a beats stick, but they also provide other interesting options.
The most obvious one is the simple fact that you turn yourself into a circle of pain 25' across (10' to right and left, 5' for you in the middle). That turns you into a serious obstacle that can define the battlefield. When you played a wizard, didn't you always want someone to stand there and keep the beasties from charging you in order to eat your precious magic meats?
Plus, I am somewhat curious about how effective combat maneuvers would actually be in this campaign. Since you seemed to indicate that this would be rather low magic, I somewhat doubt that your GM would throw a lot of creature the height of skyscrapers that have a CMB to match as well as a million legs, flight, and incorporeal-ness. You might end up fighting a lot of humanoid (or at least creatures like...whatever you are playing as). And if you add that to the right reach weapons? You can control the battle field.
(sidebar question: while doing a combat maneuver without the proper feats draws AoOs, does that matter if you are out of your opponent's range when it happens? If not...well, you could start battlefield control even before you get appropriate feats as long as you do it at the end of a polearm. It should take a while before creatures start getting enough natural reach to do anything about it, and by then you could well be on your way to getting the feats properly anyway)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do know that indeed... it's my DM that apparently just doesn't feel the monk fits the area of the world my character resides in regardless of flavor alterations. In any case, I tried to change his mind, but he insisted on no monks for my area. If he allows the Brawler class from the advanced class guide playtest, then I'll still have flurry, albeit starting at 2nd level.
Pankration from Greece is at least 2500 years old. It evolved from typical wrestling into a truly brutal combat style that is all western in its origins. PUgilism as an art has been around a long time as well, easily a thousand years.
Basically, all the East is unique for is introducing kicks into the system of fighting. As most MMA guys will tell you, kicking is not something you normally want to do in lethal combat. They look great and stylish, and leave you horribly open to a skilled opponent.
Hercules killed the Nemean Lion with his bare hands. Unarmed combat is NOT foreign to the West.
==Aelryinth
My DM is going to be beginning a custom campaign soon and the way he had us figure things out for our characters I ended up picking a fighter. Can't dip in monk due to where we are in the world and from what I can tell magic is in short supply in this world... We have to be human as well.
Starting at level one, but I'm trying to build ahead. So I have a couple questions.
1 - Is there a way to up the unarmed damage dice for those who are not and cannot be monks?
2 - What would be some good build choices for getting really solid unarmed damage with a fighter?
What I have so far:
Fighter Brawler Archetype
Feats = Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attacks) and either Bleeding Attack, Power Attack or Weapon Specialization.
Stats are very good. If you need character background just ask. Currently not allowed to know what the other players are choosing. All paizo official stuff is allowed (archetypes and such).
Are you allowed 3.5 material?
Superior Unarmed Strike from Book of 9 Swords was expressly put in there so non-monks could gain some elevating damage, topping out at 2-12. It's not huge, but it is decent.
Snap Kick also added the equivalent of Rapid Fire for UA attacks.
==Aelryinth