Incidentally, a lot of this discussion applies to the monk--another class that has a lot of required abilities aside from Intelligence and Charisma. Fortunately, like with fighter, getting people to work for you ain't all about your brains and your good looks. ;D
Which battle is that by the way? Was that Attila's last battle? I'm not aware of any other battles he lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Catalaunian_Plains
The goth King Died and his son just command the army to attack harder. At least that was the version I heard a long time ago, I could easilly be totally wrong.
Actually, looking at the Wikipedia page on Attila himself, there are a number of battles he's considered to have lost. All commanders have those, after all. :P
Actually, looking at the Wikipedia page on Attila himself, there are a number of battles he's considered to have lost. All commanders have those, after all. :P
(I'm not sure that list is entirely rigorous, but entries like Suvorov are certainly correct).
Ah yes Alexander the Great. We were one dead boyfriend and a night of drinking away from never having a Roman empire.
An unbreakable fighter BBEG that doesn't dump Int and Cha to 7, with some decent gear, minions (even if only Leadership and a bard cohort), and a GM willing to think tactically (include both ranged and melee options, use terrain/maneuvers, etc.), can hand an overconfident party their heads. For example, minions using tanglefoot bags or one-shot magic items to hinder the PCs and the bard buffing and summoning, while the BBEG softens them up at range (concentrating on taking out casters and ranged combatants first) before moving in for the kill or (if the party seems too strong) "fighting another day" (actually, more like gathering some reinforcements and coming back in about 5-15 minutes to hit the party after all the short-term buffs they were using expire).
A fighter BBEG should prepare so that the conflict is a battle of attrition (playing to the strengths of the fighter class), rather than "rocket tag" between nova-ing casters. Granted, as you get into higher levels this becomes harder to pull off, as the resources of the party makes an attrition strategy harder (because of the scope of their resources and the ability to short circuit the strategy).
Which battle is that by the way? Was that Attila's last battle? I'm not aware of any other battles he lost.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Catalaunian_Plains
The goth King Died and his son just command the army to attack harder. At least that was the version I heard a long time ago, I could easilly be totally wrong.
I'll just presume you're right. Pretty interesting. It does make me think Goth Jr was pretty charismatic though :)
perhaps seeing their leader slaughter many foes give a big circumstancial bonus to cha based checks.
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Fighter works fine as a BBEG, though, like all non-spellcasters they rely somewhat on items and/or minions with buff spells. And a template or two never hurts any BBEG.
All that said, with high stats and PC WBL, any class can easily be a valid threat for their CR.
Heck, I could demonstrate if people disbelieve.
Comitatus was a Germanic friendship structure that compelled kings to rule in consultation with their warriors, forming a warband. The comitatus, as described in the Roman historian Tacitus's treatise Germania (98.AD), is the bond existing between a Germanic warrior and his Lord, ensuring that neither leaves the field of battle before the other. The translation is as follows: "Moreover, to survive the leader and retreat from the battlefield is a lifelong disgrace and infamy"
However, the system had little actually to do with the Catalaunian Plains battle. Theodoric's death was not discovered by his troops till after the fighting was over.
Does a Rogue work? I used a Rogue prince as a BBEG once.
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An unbreakable fighter BBEG that doesn't dump Int and Cha to 7, with some decent gear, minions (even if only Leadership and a bard cohort),
As an NPC, A Fighter BBEG shouldn't have to pay for those cohorts and minions with Charisma or Leadership, anymore than Karzoug had to spend any point buy, feats or other personal resources to have that big blue dragon sitting behind his throne (on the cover of the Gamemastery Guide), or Queen Ileosa needed to buy Leadership to have a bunch of high level Gray Maidens working for her.
While a non-spellcasting BBEG is going to lack a lot of personal 'get out of jail free' cards that a spellcaster would have, there's no reason to give up all the freebies that are handed to spellcasting BBEGs, independent of their class abilities, such as tons of minions (and castles, and whatnot) that they didn't 'pay for' out of character resources.
Not really.
The fighter is weaker to start with, and one of their selling points is that they're all day strong all day long. Against a party where they only have one 18 second word day their advantage is for naught.
A rogue can be pretty deadly- but on two conditions
Only in the hands of the dm. It seems to me that there are two seperate rules for sneaking around, one for pcs' one for NPCs. Against npcs PCs aren't eveb allowed a perception check, against NPCs PCs won't even be allowed a stealth roll.
Only to one character. Once he's out and in plain sight he's toast.
** spoiler omitted **
I probably read a more poethic version of the story.
EDIT: Now, I think it was a movie.
EDIT 2: I think it was this movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5-DQ0VxdKQ
In this case, there is no need to let history to ruin the story.
EDIT 3: Yup, after 2:29:00
Not really.
The fighter is weaker to start with, and one of their selling points is that they're all day strong all day long. Against a party where they only have one 18 second word day their advantage is for naught.
A rogue can be pretty deadly- but on two conditions
Only in the hands of the dm. It seems to me that there are two seperate rules for sneaking around, one for pcs' one for NPCs. Against npcs PCs aren't eveb allowed a perception check, against NPCs PCs won't even be allowed a stealth roll.
Eh, he never really had to sneak much, he was the prince/declared himself king.
An unbreakable fighter BBEG that doesn't dump Int and Cha to 7, with some decent gear, minions (even if only Leadership and a bard cohort),As an NPC, A Fighter BBEG shouldn't have to pay for those cohorts and minions with Charisma or Leadership,
Scaling. It all depends on how big the BBEG is for that adventure, the scope of the adventure itself, and the level range the party is at. The organizations in Ultimate Campaign can also be used, if desired, if the GM wants to do quantify things a bit more.
I think Order of the Stick made an excellent fighter BBEG. Even if he wasn't the main villain, he had a whole story arch devoted to him.
But he has several levels on the Order, and fights as part of a team, and a dragon could roll around on the excess of his equipment... yes even HIS dragon.
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Interesting thread.
I read a great deal about why fighters aren't thematically good BBEGs, but have to disagree with some of the assumptions. The best leaders aren't necessarily the brightest, most charismatic, or most powerful - they're the ones who recognize their own limitations, the promise & limitations of their underlings, and how to shore their weaknesses and play to their strengths. That is pretty much the definition of a successful high level fighter. By the time you hit level 10+ as a fighter in Pathfinder, you've not only slaughtered hundreds of enemies, but you've also probably had at least dozens of hostile spells cast on you.
The ability to socially, emotionally, or intellectually manipulate their underlings is also very helpful and might also help make them more thematically appropriate. A web of blackmail, misplaced loyalty and emotional manipulation can be fare more effective and harder to counter than constantly renewed Dominate Person spells.
I think a fighter can make a credible BBEG if the GM both stats him and his minions appropriately and makes sure that his environment is an advantage to him and a detriment to the PCs.
-TimD
I think that it's very easy to see the rules as your master instead of your tool...
Wow. This sums up what I've been feeling for a good time. During my early D&D 3rd edition days (also my earliest DMing experience), justifying plot stuff as rules components made me feel more confident and rules-savvy. As the time passed, it became more and more of an obligation to my rules-lawyering players.
4th edition broke that mold incidentally saying "OK, this goblin shaman has this special power that only he has". Say what you will about that system, but you could really design a monster/NPC with whatever power you felt it needed. Paizo has done that many times over the years (most important NPCs have special, cool and unique abilities) but we're still somewhat shackled to this "must follow every rule" attitude.
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I think Order of the Stick made an excellent fighter BBEG. Even if he wasn't the main villain, he had a whole story arch devoted to him.
But he has several levels on the Order, and fights as part of a team, and a dragon could roll around on the excess of his equipment... yes even HIS dragon.
So he was your typical BBEG...
But he has several levels on the Order,
As a BBEG should.
and fights as part of a team,As a BBEG should.
and a dragon could roll around on the excess of his equipment... yes even HIS dragon.
Kinda how Dragotha had a treasure table large enough to fill two pages? BBEGs--especially BBEGs who run kingdoms--are kinda supposed to be rich. Otherwise, what's the point in killing 'em?
Well thats the problem with a Bigbad that relies on treasure. If the party kills him they usually loot him, then your fighter is walking around with spinners and the party needs to fight animals, oozes, and dragons with offshore accounts for a few levels.
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Otherwise, what's the point in killing 'em?Because it's the right thing to do?
Pfft. What do I look like, Adventurers Without Borders?
I'm not sure if you're just playing along with the joke or genuinely assumed I was saying a BBEG had to be rich to be a Big Bad. As such, I'll respond seriously.
While a BBEG doesn't "have" to be rich, a true Big Bad shows up at the end of the campaign. I think it's a little unreasonable to not find some way of giving the PCs tons of cash. I mean, they'll never get to use it, but it lets them feel like they finally met what was probably their original goal "before this adventure got all serious and crap". Doesn't necessarily have to be from the Big Bad, of course. Dragotha wasn't really Number One, he was just the most memorable of the team. Who even remembers [SPOILER], amiriteorwut?
A big bad FIGHTER needs to be decked out to be a threat. For example Tarquin from order of the stick.
You can also give him some magic-using sidekicks, of course. That has the side benefit of helping the action economy.
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A big bad FIGHTER needs to be decked out to be a threat. For example Tarquin from order of the stick.
Yep. And they usually are. And they usually have friends and don't operate in a vacuum. They are tactically intelligent. They go after their enemies once they know they are there including casters.
A wizard might not mind having a fighter as a leader. He summons up those demons and has the fighter stand there with him. If the demon breaches the containment, the fighter kills him quick. Or he intimidates the demon into doing what is asked.
You can make a BBEG fighter. He probably needs an artifact weapon or at least an intelligent weapon with some special powers. And some friends. Just like any BBEG going against a party.
If a BBEG wizard tried to stand alone against a party, he would die. There's no class that can stand alone against an adventuring party unless he's significantly higher level than the party, even that usually requires some high level minions to stand with them to absorb hits.
I can't believe the stock people put into summoning. Most martials can chew through summoned creatures like they're eating bags of candy. I have a character that summons a solar. The solar can't touch the martial capabilities of the martials in our group. They do far more damage and the summoned creatures can't compete against them. They're not even in the same ballpark.
Build a fighter right and he is a truly awesome damage dealer. If he can land a few hits on an opponent, especially a caster, they're going to die.
Maybe our next thread should be about BBEBs (Big Bad Evil Bards). I mean, thematically-speaking, those guys are just silly.
BBARB: "Stand back, you fools! I'll show you! I'll show you all!"
PCs: "Your reign of terror ends here!"
BBARB: "Oh, yeah?"
PCs: "Yeah!"
BBARB: "Oh, yeah?"
PCs: "Yeah!"
BBARB: "SO BE IT!"
PCs: "..."
BBARB: *Starts rapping*
PCs: "..."
There is one BBEG Bard that is very memorable. Bards make surprisingly fun and cool BBEGs. They are all around better than wizards in my opinion. They have a combination of combat ability, skills, and spell casting that allow them to deal with a lot of different problems in a lot of different ways. Bards make great BBEGs.
Bards are neat not because they're "better" than Wizards but because they're naturally charismatic (and thus good leaders by default) and work as force multipliers, so if they have a number of somewhat weaker minions he can support them with rousing speeches (Or frightening cries of "If you don't kill them I'll flay you and feed you to the Lacedons one piece at a time!).
They also work really well as the centerpiece of an Evil party.
I will say I like a Fighter as the "Brawn" portion of a BBEG Brains and Brawn duo. He doesn't necessarily have to be dumb, but he's of average intelligence (or slightly above, like a 12) at best and the mastermind is the Wizard, or Alchemist (also a neat BBEG for the flavor), or whatever.
Work in tandem, Fighter holding off the group by matching their heavy hitter blow for blow, while the Wizard finishes their evil plot to open a hell portal or supports from the back with spells.
I just really do have a hard time seeing a Fighter as the sole BBEG at high levels. They can be awesome (everyone's favorite bad guy is usually The Dragon, after all) but they just lack a little something thematically and ability-wise to push them over the edge. As I said before, they're not crazy enough by default to be the Barbarian Warchief kinda guy, not naturally sneaky enough to be the rival Assassin, can't cast so they're not really the evil overlord type as much.
But they can sure as hell be the Blademaster, Enforcer, etc.
Slayer will be pretty cool when it comes out, as a pre-built Assassin class.
Ah yes Alexander the Great. We were one dead boyfriend and a night of drinking away from never having a Roman empire.
I dont think Alexander losing his life later would have had any effect on the expansion og the roman republic. And given the level of respect Augustus had for Alexander it is unlikely that he would have actet differently i Alexander had manager to conquer Arabia.
Alexander changed the World in his time but he ditent think past him self.
It just seems sad that you'll probably never have an opportunity to exact an appropriate revenge without getting kicked from your table.
It's an interesting quirk to our society that castration is semi-accepted, and sometimes found funny while the female alternative is (rightly) seen as despicable.
Has nobody brought up Legacy of Fire yet? That one caps off with a fight against a fighter, and I found it to be a nice fun challenging encounter. Actually, come to think of it, there's very few casters anywhere in that whole AP.
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As far as BBEG Fighters are concerned, I don't think that you can go past the character known as Kane.
Brilliant strategist and warrior unmatched, plus (in game terms) a very healthy UMD, Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana.
He is cursed with immortality* and his one driving force is that he is bored - he will do anything that will amuse him: Destroy empires, Start Kingdoms, rape queens and elevate prostitutes, even locate lost artifacts that could destroy the world etc.
Note immortal does not mean he is invincible, just cursed to remain at the moment of the curse. He can die in violence and has almost done so numerous times, but his wits and planning has seen him survive.
The author is Karl Edward Wagner, do yourselves a favour and read some of teh stories - I promise you they will give you ideas how a Fighter BBEG could work and work well.
In an E7 campaign which unfortunately came to an all to early halt, I had planned to have a fighter as the BBEG, Skaira En'Kir. It was quite an elaborate backstory and plot, but long story short her sister was a powerful necromancer but the BBEG backstabbed her right when she was transcending to an undead body, corrupted the ritual and trapped her in the BBEG's armor, forcing the sister to aid the BBEG instead. While Skaira is generally in control, her sister still tries to work the angles. Her necromantic powers combined with Skaira's betrayal have led Skaira to slowly turn into an undead creature.
I had it half-statted up, but due to this thread (and the unfortunate fact that I get far too little play time nowadays) I statted her (and her sister) up. If anyone wants to check it out:
The only way a Fighter could be your BBEG would be a rival that keeps coming back, sides with someone else, but kill that someone else to gain his powers so he could beat you down for good...
I guess that fighters are a little too straightforward to be complex villains.
From what I've seen of APs, Paizo tends to use 25 point-buy for their Adventure Path BBEGs, and sets them against PCs who've only had 15 points.
I don't think so. Elvanna is called out as having an inflated CR from a higher point buy. Many of the final fights in APs are non-human, have templates, and have inherent bonuses (which are called out in the stat block).
Looking at the Paizo AP with the non-fighter martial BBEG, his mental stats are 10 across the board and he's a 15 point buy.
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That's a really interesting point on the BBEG point-buy, Gluttony. I always do that on my most important villains (since the PCs are also on a 25 pt buy). You think that affects their CR? Could you provide some examples?
It affects the BBEG's CR, but not much. As an example, the final villain of the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path (anniversary edition):
In another vein, Jade Regent's final villain:
And Paizo is somewhat inconsistent about what bonuses result in increases to CR. Skull and Shackles' final villain, for example:
He's notably also a fighter BBEG, albeit one with more Prestige Class levels than fighter levels, being a Fighter 8/Inner Sea Pirate 10.
And as a final example, Reign of Winter's final villain:
...And then there's a big one. Not an AP BBEG, but strong and evil nonetheless, Baba Yaga:
- 25 point-buy and significantly-increased resources (+2 CR)
- Adds her Charisma modifier to her AC, HP, and Saving throws (+1 CR)
- 300 bonus hit points, DR 10/epic and good, and regeneration 20 (+1 CR)
- All the bonuses of venerable age with none of the penalties, as well as immunity to ability drain, charm and compulsion, death effects, disease, energy drain, petrification, poison, and all forms of madness (CR +1)
- The source of Baba Yaga's last point of bonus CR isn't specified, but I'm willing to bet it comes from her knowing (and being able to prepare) all of the Sorcerer/Wizard spells and a bunch of spells from other casting classes (including divine classes) in addition to knowing all the Witch Spells.
So... yeah, BBEG's get lots of nice bonus stuff that PCs don't, and it makes them more challenging than other NPCs.
I think Order of the Stick made an excellent fighter BBEG. Even if he wasn't the main villain, he had a whole story arch devoted to him.
But he has several levels on the Order, and fights as part of a team, and a dragon could roll around on the excess of his equipment... yes even HIS dragon.
And that totally does not happnes when the BBEG is another class? Does the other classes BBEG are of the same level of the party, or do not they use companions, or have monsters to defend themselves?
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I just really do have a hard time seeing a Fighter as the sole BBEG at high levels. They can be awesome (everyone's favorite bad guy is usually The Dragon, after all) but they just lack a little something thematically and ability-wise to push them over the edge. As I said before, they're not crazy enough by default to be the Barbarian Warchief kinda guy, not naturally sneaky enough to be the rival Assassin, can't cast so they're not really the evil overlord type as much.
Fighter are vanilla. In an adventurer party your fighter might have a hard time fillinf various niches, but as a BBEG he might not need it.
There is no problem with a fighter being a crazy barbarian warchief, or be sneaky enougu to be an assasin. They can be build to fill that roles.
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I just really do have a hard time seeing a Fighter as the sole BBEG at high levels. They can be awesome (everyone's favorite bad guy is usually The Dragon, after all) but they just lack a little something thematically and ability-wise to push them over the edge. As I said before, they're not crazy enough by default to be the Barbarian Warchief kinda guy, not naturally sneaky enough to be the rival Assassin, can't cast so they're not really the evil overlord type as much.Fighter are vanilla. In an adventurer party your fighter might have a hard time fillinf various niches, but as a BBEG he might not need it.
There is no problem with a fighter being a crazy barbarian warchief, or be sneaky enougu to be an assasin. They can be build to fill that roles.
I agree. I've posted before about build versatility vs play flexibility from the PC perspective. Compared to a PC, though, building a one use NPC is an area where that distinction shrinks greatly. If the NPC is only going to be onscreen once, you can build him for what you want him to do, without any worries that he won't be able to adapt to different situations, since he'll likely never be in any. It matters less if the disarmer specialist you build to challenge your party is useless in many other circumstances.
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Lots of talk about high level play; there's bbegs in low level games too. Not ever bbeg is a ruler or someone on a global scale. They can be just one guy with a personal grudge. Think of movies like Die Hard, the main villain is just the leader of a group of thieves. Nothing world shattering. Perfect opportunities for fighter villains.
A high level fighter with an antimagic field is nothing to joke about; you fight him on his terms.
And that totally does not happnes when the BBEG is another class? Does the other classes BBEG are of the same level of the party
3-4 higher, tops.
or do not they use companions, or have monsters to defend themselves?
A wizard in his bathrobe can (with a few moments notice bought by the screams of his dying minions aka encounters 1-3) be a fairly credible threat. The big bad fighter needs a good weapon and good armor to function and that makes him a treasurebath.