You probably want to reconsider ever listening to whoever told you that was true.Let’s talk about minimum wage. Obama said, “No one working full-time should have to raise a family in poverty.”
And his solution? Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 over 3 years
I absolutely welcome any step forward on raising the minimum wage. And it is outrageous how the Republican Party is standing in the way.
But let’s be honest: $10.10/hour over three years – or $20,000 per year if you are lucky enough to have a full-time job – is not a ticket out of poverty for working families.
Raising minimum wage does nothing to solve poverty. Companies just use it as an excuse to raise prices, which means that all it will do is devalue the currency.
Until that problem is solved, raising minimum wage is a losing proposition.
They were my former employers. I eventually quit because they treated the employees like inept children, tried to remote manage all stores to the point all of the good managers left, mandated us treating customers like convicted criminals, broke federal law at least once that I'm aware of, broke corporate regulations enough that they were under investigation by corporate when I left, and regularly encouraged employees to break federal law and try to strong-arm customers into spending as much money as possible. All of that is in addition to price gouging, attempting underhanded tactics to drive competitors out of business, the number of times they flat-out lied to employees and customers, and the fact their employment contract violates the employment laws of my state (this came in handy when they recently tried to sue me).
If you ever wonder why the IRS treats tax preparers outside of their agency like those preparers are pond scum, the above paragraph should give you an idea.
It was confirmed by a couple of people I know who run restaurants that they do the same thing for the same reasons. Plus, most local stores did it when the state raised minimum wage a few years back. So, just because it isn't necessarily legal doesn't mean it's not actually practiced.
I expect the wages to come from the employer.
Who the hell cares what you expect? Your sense of entitlement is off the charts.
You know, the person that supposedly employs them?
They pay part of their wage. You pay the other part. You'll be paying it either way.
Impossible, as tipping rates vary. Which of the tips is the right amount?
The proper amount is the amount that you feel their service warrants.
5%, 10%, 20% 17.90%?
Typically some amount between 10% and 25%, hopefully in something resembling a normal distribution.
It's not difficult to figure out.
You also don't know their wage unless you ask and they tell you.
You don't need to know their wage.
Some services get decent wages, some get screwed. So do you see why it needs to be removed yet?
Whether it needs to be removed or not isn't the point.
You needed to get your head around this, like, two pages ago.
Can you grasp that while this is normal for you, status quot, for others it is a convoluted and ridiculous setup?
I don't care if you think it's convoluted. If tipping is too complicated for you (and, seriously, you're going to let the average American out-math you?), don't eat out at a restaurant where you are served at the table.
I am also not interested in assigning a +15% amount to basic service or playing around with the percentage based on how I feel that day and whether I got touched up by the waitress.
Again, no one gives a damn what you're interested in.
Which then apparently means I am supposed to cough up more money.
No, that was an observation made as part of a study - descriptive, not prescriptive.
Screw that social convention.
It's not a social convention. It's (likely) a subconscious trend.
When I want food I don't want an arm rub, and I certainly don't want to pay for it. I want the damn meal!
Don't be so myopic.
Tipping is paying extra to the advertised price.
So is sales tax. Try not paying that, next time.
I don't want the actual cost to be higher than the advertised cost, and I reject any social conventions that say, no, you should pay more than the cost on the wall.
And the rest of us will, justifiably, consider you a genuinely terrible human being for it. After this much discussion, you have no excuse.
Be better.
You probably want to reconsider ever listening to whoever told you that was true.Let’s talk about minimum wage. Obama said, “No one working full-time should have to raise a family in poverty.”
And his solution? Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 over 3 years
I absolutely welcome any step forward on raising the minimum wage. And it is outrageous how the Republican Party is standing in the way.
But let’s be honest: $10.10/hour over three years – or $20,000 per year if you are lucky enough to have a full-time job – is not a ticket out of poverty for working families.
Raising minimum wage does nothing to solve poverty. Companies just use it as an excuse to raise prices, which means that all it will do is devalue the currency.
Until that problem is solved, raising minimum wage is a losing proposition.
They were my former employers. I eventually quit because they treated the employees like inept children, tried to remote manage all stores to the point all of the good managers left, mandated us treating customers like convicted criminals, broke federal law at least once that I'm aware of, broke corporate regulations enough that they were under investigation by corporate when I left, and regularly encouraged employees to break federal law and try to strong-arm customers into spending as much money as possible. All of that is in addition to price gouging, attempting underhanded tactics to drive competitors out of business, the number of times they flat-out lied to employees and customers, and the fact their employment contract violates the employment laws of my state (this came in handy when they recently tried to sue me).
If you ever wonder why the IRS treats tax preparers outside of their agency like those preparers are pond scum, the above paragraph should give you an idea.
It was confirmed by a couple of people I know who run restaurants...
What.
EDIT: Okay, to put it more clearly - no, that's not how the economy works. While there may be a slight increase in the price of certain goods associated with an increase in minimum wage, the price of goods (on balance) is generally determined by what the market can bear. Most people make more than the minimum wage, and those who already make more than the new minimum wage level (still most people) are completely unaffected by changes to the minimum wage. Accordingly, their buying power does not change, meaning the segment of the market they represent is not able to bear any change in price.
This is a simplistic sort of explanation from a guy who is not an economist, but it lines up with my understanding. It is absolutely not as simple as "Businesses will just raise their prices if the minimum wage goes up, so nothing will change."
I expect the wages to come from the employer.Who the hell cares what you expect? Your sense of entitlement is off the charts.
You know, the person that supposedly employs them?They pay part of their wage. You pay the other part. You'll be paying it either way.
Impossible, as tipping rates vary. Which of the tips is the right amount?The proper amount is the amount that you feel their service warrants.
5%, 10%, 20% 17.90%?Typically some amount between 10% and 25%, hopefully in something resembling a normal distribution.
It's not difficult to figure out.
You also don't know their wage unless you ask and they tell you.You don't need to know their wage.
Some services get decent wages, some get screwed. So do you see why it needs to be removed yet?Whether it needs to be removed or not isn't the point.
You needed to get your head around this, like, two pages ago.
Can you grasp that while this is normal for you, status quot, for others it is a convoluted and ridiculous setup?I don't care if you think it's convoluted. If tipping is too complicated for you (and, seriously, you're going to let the average American out-math you?), don't eat out at a restaurant where you are served at the table.
I am also not interested in assigning a +15% amount to basic service or playing around with the percentage based on how I feel that day and whether I got touched up by the waitress.Again, no one gives a damn what you're interested in.
Which then apparently means I am supposed to cough up more money.No, that was an observation made as part of a study - descriptive, not prescriptive.
Screw that social convention.It's not a social convention. It's (likely) a subconscious trend.
When I want food I don't want an arm rub, and I certainly don't...
My expectation that you call entitlement refers to what is actually standard in most of the Western world, and beyond (into Asia as well chummy chum chum). There is no excuse to be backwards. Especially in a country that claims to lead the free world.
I didn't even post the working conditions issue. Mainly because I didn't want to make it sound utterly unbelievable.
Man In Black, no. Nor do I believe the excuse that raising minimum wage requires raising prices. But whether or not I believe it has no effect on if it is actually used. Reality continues as it is no matter what I would like it to be.
My expectation that you call entitlement refers to what is actually standard in most of the Western world, and beyond (into Asia as well chummy chum chum). There is no excuse to be backwards. Especially in a country that claims to lead the free world.
It doesn't matter what you wish the situation were, or what you think it should be.
It.
Doesn't.
Matter.
The people you are stiffing rely on that income, and you are being a tremendous jerk by not tipping them. YOU WOULD BE PAYING THAT MONEY ANYWAY, because if tipping culture didn't exist, service would be added to the bill/menu, just like it is in most European nations. You're not losing any money by tipping. You are paying the amount that you should be paying, and would be paying even if you had your way.
I don't normally use caps to get a point across, but you have been told probably a dozen times by half as many people here that what you wish were the case isn't important. Tipping culture exists in America, it is expected, and if you choose to participate in the dining experience here, YOU TIP.
Not doing so is incredibly disrespectful, an unbelievably pompous thing to do, and, unlike many other cross-cultural offenses, actually results in someone's life being materially worse than if you had never shown up in the first place.
I didn't even post the working conditions issue. Mainly because I didn't want to make it sound utterly unbelievable.
Man In Black, no. Nor do I believe the excuse that raising minimum wage requires raising prices. But whether or not I believe it has no effect on if it is actually used. Reality continues as it is no matter what I would like it to be.
Except that is not the reality. At all.
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At least prices never go up when they don't increase minimum wage! Am I right, people?
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My expectation that you call entitlement refers to what is actually standard in most of the Western world, and beyond (into Asia as well chummy chum chum). There is no excuse to be backwards. Especially in a country that claims to lead the free world.It doesn't matter what you wish the situation were, or what you think it should be.
It.
Doesn't.
Matter.
The people you are stiffing rely on that income, and you are being a tremendous jerk by not tipping them. YOU WOULD BE PAYING THAT MONEY ANYWAY, because if tipping culture didn't exist, service would be added to the bill/menu, just like it is in most European nations. You're not losing any money by tipping. You are paying the amount that you should be paying, and would be paying if you had your way.
I don't normally use caps to get a point across, but you have been told probably a dozen times by half as many people here that what you wish were the case isn't important. Tipping culture exists in America, it is expected, and if you choose to participate in the dining experience here, YOU TIP.
Scott, you forgot your ABCs.
Always be cool.
It does indeed matter. Because I can be opposed to tipping and there is nothing you can do about it. You can say my opinion is completely unimportant and you can get furious when I express it, but tipping is a relic and it is high time it is completely jettisoned, the minimum wage raised and the consequences of that dealt with. Because plenty of other countries just deal with the costs of actually paying their workers, and not looking to the customers to pay them.
I would not be paying that money anyway, because tipping is variable, whereas if the costs of goods and services are raised (and the minimum wagers get more) the actual amount becomes the actual amount.
Tipping culture? So it went from a "social convention" to a "subconscious trend", now it is a "culture". Please work out which bloody term you are using. You are all over the place, like tipping.
It does indeed matter. Because I can be opposed to tipping and there is nothing you can do about it.
Well, of course not.
I'm letting you know that what you're doing is not going to be seen as noble. Or even ambivalent. By anyone. It's going to be seen as incredibly douchey. What country are you from? I want to know so that I can look up something that would be incredibly disrespectful to you, that I can flaunt my petty "opposition" to and pretend like it's okay for me to act like a jerk when I visit your country.
You can say my opinion is completely unimportant and you can get furious when I express it, but tipping is a relic and it is high time it is completely jettisoned, the minimum wage raised and the consequences of that dealt with.
So? You not tipping doesn't change that.
Because plenty of other countries just deal with the costs of actually paying their workers, and not looking to the customers to pay them.
...where the hell do you think the money to pay their workers comes from?
I would not be paying that money anyway, because tipping is variable,
Only if you want it to be. If it's too complicated for you, tip 18% all the time. Done. Now you have no excuse. Go, and be a jerk no more.
Tipping culture? So it went from a "social convention" to a "subconscious trend", now it is a "culture". Please work out which bloody term you are using. You are all over the place, like tipping.
Tipping is a social convention. There is a culture associated with tipping that informally governs how much is tipped, when the tip is given, what situations call for a tip, etc. The "subconscious trend" you're referencing is the phenomenon of tending to pay a higher tip to female servers who engage in light bodily contact during the meal.
Is this too complex for you? Let me know, I can try explaining like you're five.
No, but the comments against restaurateurs (aka the ones who hire and pay the wait staff) does indicate a lack of knowledge from the perspective of running a restaurant, how small the margins are, how easily restaurants fail, or how susceptible they are to inflation.
Interesting article from Bloomberg Business Week
Some parts I'd like to highlight, others may find other parts more interesting:
--His research—consistent with similar studies—found that about one in four restaurants close or change ownership within their first year of business. Over three years, that number rises to three in five.
While a 60% failure rate may still sound high, that's on par with the cross-industry average for new businesses, according to statistics from the Small Business Administration and the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
--Because of the belief that restaurants are high-risk investments, he says, many banks won't lend to restaurants at all. Typically, the ones that do require would-be restaurateurs to pay sky-high interest rates or put up significant collateral (say, a house) to mitigate the perceived risk (see BusinessWeek.com, Winter, 2007, "Tapped Out"). Ironically, Parsa's research identified lack of sufficient startup capital as one of the major elements that contribute to a restaurant's failure—making the myth a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
--Given the immense time commitment that goes into owning a restaurant, it makes sense that some owners want out, even if they're making money. And in fact, the number of profitable "failures" is not insignificant. A 2003 report from an economist in the SBA's Office of Advocacy analyzed unpublished data from the U.S. Census and found that one-third of closed businesses were financially successful at closure.
--His conclusions were based on in-depth interviews with 20 successful and 20 failed restaurateurs. He determined that "beyond muddled concepts, failure seemed to stem in large part from an inability or unwillingness to give the business sufficient attention, whether due to lack of time, passion or knowledge."
Most of the failed restaurant owners themselves attributed their failure at least partly to competing family demands, including divorce, ill health, and retirement. Some owners voluntarily closed when the family sacrifices became too much, like one owner who said she didn't want to miss seeing her children grow up.
It does indeed matter. Because I can be opposed to tipping and there is nothing you can do about it.Well, of course not.
I'm letting you know that what you're doing is not going to be seen as noble. Or even ambivalent. By anyone. It's going to be seen as incredibly douchey. What country are you from? I want to know so that I can look up something that would be incredibly disrespectful to you, that I can flaunt my petty "opposition" to and pretend like it's okay for me to act like a jerk when I visit your country.
You can say my opinion is completely unimportant and you can get furious when I express it, but tipping is a relic and it is high time it is completely jettisoned, the minimum wage raised and the consequences of that dealt with.So? You not tipping doesn't change that.
Because plenty of other countries just deal with the costs of actually paying their workers, and not looking to the customers to pay them....where the hell do you think the money to pay their workers comes from?
I would not be paying that money anyway, because tipping is variable,Only if you want it to be. If it's too complicated for you, tip 18% all the time. Done. Now you have no excuse. Go, and be a jerk no more.
Tipping culture? So it went from a "social convention" to a "subconscious trend", now it is a "culture". Please work out which bloody term you are using. You are all over the place, like tipping.Tipping is a social convention. There is a culture associated with tipping that informally governs how much is tipped, when the tip is given, what situations call for a tip, etc. The "subconscious trend" you're referencing is the phenomenon of tending to pay a higher tip to female servers who engage in light bodily contact during the meal.
Is this too complex for you? Let me know, I can try explaining like you're five.
See, you can clear up your mess of using so many different terms to justify one thing. Good job.
Now, explain to me why a non-American should obediently follow a convention that is not their own, it certainly is not a law, but it is a cultural practice that is pretty far from how much of the world do things. You can explain it to me like I am 5, but I wouldn't recommend the simplification.
Are you going to go for "when in Rome?"
How about no. Don't badger non-Americans to support your very strange arrangements that vary heavily between establishments and industries.
On that note I've also got another one for you, maybe to get you think. Would you tip your doctor? Would you tip a teacher? Would you tip someone well paid in hospitality. Why not? Now think why not and how tipping, which is not actually standard for all goods and services, could be eliminated overnight.
Except that is not the reality. At all.I didn't even post the working conditions issue. Mainly because I didn't want to make it sound utterly unbelievable.
Man In Black, no. Nor do I believe the excuse that raising minimum wage requires raising prices. But whether or not I believe it has no effect on if it is actually used. Reality continues as it is no matter what I would like it to be.
Some business owners disagree. Also interesting is that one argument in favor of the price increase uses raising prices as a way to counter job loss. Notably, there is even a newspaper article that comes to the conclusion that raising prices because of minimum wage increases may be necessary, though they are using a much higher minimum wage for their basis.
So, yes, businesses are threatening to raise prices over this, and some who support the idea see it as a solution to the job loss argument. That much is reality.
Do they actually need to? Well, you can say that is not reality and I cannot argue with you. You can say that it is not merely an excuse and I have to admit obvious bias and cannot argue with you. All I can say is that businesses using it as a reason why is reality, even if the reason itself is not.
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Now, explain to me why a non-American should obediently follow a convention that is not their own, it certainly is not a law, but it is a cultural practice that is pretty far from how much of the world do things.
Because when you're here, in our country, the respectful thing to do is to follow our customs when you are capable of doing so. This is further compounded by the fact that not doing so isn't merely disrespectful, but also harms other people materially.
For instance, if I visit the United Kingdom and I'm drinking in a pub with some local friends, I observe rounds. We don't have that custom here, but it would be disrespectful of me to not keep up with rounds, especially since the people I'm drinking with would probably be too polite to point out my faux pas, and would simply skip over me, paying more in the process.
You can explain it to me like I am 5, but I wouldn't recommend the simplification.
Then I recommend being less stubborn.
Are you going to go for "when in Rome?"
Why yes, yes I am!
How about no. Don't badger non-Americans to support your very strange arrangements that vary heavily between establishments and industries.
Why?
Is it too complicated for you?
Most visitors seem to grasp it just fine, but if it's too much for you it's not impolite to ask what the customary amount is.
On that note I've also got another one for you, maybe to get you think. Would you tip your doctor?
No. My family does, however, purchase gifts for our physician. A monetary gift would be seen as impersonal, not to mention silly since many doctors are self-employed and dictate their own prices (or, at least, negotiate them with insurance providers) and wages.
Would you tip a teacher?
No, but, again, we do send gifts to teachers.
Would you tip someone well paid in hospitality.
What area of hospitality? Because, yes, probably.
Why not? Now think why not and how tipping, which is not actually standard for all goods and services, could be eliminated overnight.
But it's here, so tip.
Some business owners disagree.
Of course they do. They don't want to pay more. So they throw tantrums and act like it's the end of the world. But they know (just like economists do - the same sort that contend, in that very same article, that raising the minimum wage would have a positive effect on the economy) that most of it is hot air. They won't be able to raise prices dramatically because (except in a handful of cases) most of their customers won't be any wealthier, and won't appreciate having to pay more. They won't raise prices unless they absolutely have to, and history has demonstrated that they probably don't have to - at least, not substantially.
I really didn't expect you to go so eagerly with, because that is how things are badly done here. Tip even if you object to it. Tip whatever your opinion on our conventions. Obey obey obey. Aren't you the land of the free? Or are you actually enforcing the land of whatever odd conventions are current?
You really are for accepting the status quo aren't you? Ahh, always a delight to encounter another American that expects things to go their way, because America. Lol.
I will repeat just one more time. It is not the place of the customer to pay an employer's employees. I'm not signing up for that dodginess.
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Increasing the minimum wage increases the amount people who are earning that wage make relative to people who aren't. Will some prices go up? Probably. But the minimum wage earners still come out ahead, and really that's the whole point.
But I forgot...minimum wage earners have it coming. They're the greedy ones!
*sob*
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I really didn't expect you to go so eagerly with, because that is how things are badly done here.
Many of us don't think it's "done badly." But, again, not the point. Even most of the ones who think its done badly still tip because they're not douchebags.
Tip even if you object to it.
Yes.
Tip whatever your opinion on our conventions.
Yes.
Obey obey obey.
Obey, or we will be quite cross with you and might even give you a nasty stare. I know, how downright Orwellian of us.
Aren't you the land of the free?
You're free to not tip. And we're free to justifiably call you a jackass for it.
Isn't freedom great?
Or are you actually enforcing the land of whatever odd conventions our current?
We're not enforcing anything. You don't get thrown in jail for not tipping. That's why it's a custom, and not a law. You know the difference, I'm sure.
You really are for accepting the status quo aren't you?
No, I'm generally for not being a douchebag to people who really can't afford to deal with douchebags all the time.
Ahh, always a delight to encounter another American that expects things to go their way, because America. Lol.
I'm sure you have nothing like that in your country. Nothing at all.
I will repeat just one more time. It is not the place of the customer to pay an employer's employees.
Haha because you say so, or what?
Where does that money come from, DM Under The Bridge?
I'm not signing up for that dodginess.
It's really totally fine with us if you stay in your home country, then. It's not like you were improving anything by visiting.
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I will repeat just one more time. It is not the place of the customer to pay an employer's employees. I'm not signing up for that dodginess.
Then simply don't patronize places that pay their employees less than minimum wage. If you don't like the contract, don't be a party to it. But don't stick it to the guys making $2.13 an hour.
The best way of thinking of not tipping is like economic sanctions against Iraq. Sure the bad guys aren't being harmed but perhaps the guys who need it will try to make a change since them and their families are getting a tad hungry. If they don't get tipped, perhaps they actually work together to change the system.
Just out of curiosity, how did the whole Iraq thing turn out? I'm not very familiar with it, but it sounds from what you're saying like everything must have been peacefully resolved with economic sanctions and a non-violent citizen overthrow of the government.
I'm just grateful to hear that we didn't get drawn into a decade-long military conflict with them because economic sanctions didn't have the intended effect of empowering a marginalized citizenry to rise up against a tyrannical dictator. What a relief.
The best way of thinking of not tipping is like economic sanctions against Iraq. Sure the bad guys aren't being harmed but perhaps the guys who need it will try to make a change since them and their families are getting a tad hungry. If they don't get tipped, perhaps they actually work together to change the system.
Maybe it is time to rethink it, Comrade Under the Bridge. Nobody wants to be like Madeleine Albright.
Some business owners disagree.Of course they do. They don't want to pay more. So they throw tantrums and act like it's the end of the world. But they know (just like economists do - the same sort that contend, in that very same article, that raising the minimum wage would have a positive effect on the economy) that most of it is hot air. They won't be able to raise prices dramatically because (except in a handful of cases) most of their customers won't be any wealthier, and won't appreciate having to pay more. They won't raise prices unless they absolutely have to, and history has demonstrated that they probably don't have to - at least, not substantially.
I was hoping that would be noticed ^^
I have not disagreed that it is hot air. I called it an excuse earlier, after all ;)
The problem I have is that there are companies who get away with it. They can manage to raise their prices just enough that the increase in minimum wage doesn't make a difference, or lay off employees so fewer people benefit. The article I linked to noted that some small businesses do that, and the article I linked to at the last noted that most franchises are, themselves, small businesses.
Ultimately, I do not believe that is how it should be done, but that doesn't change that it happens. Or that it affects everyone. But, then, I think how business is handled needs a reform from the top down...
But, I'm just a single person. I'll admit up front I am biased, and it clearly shows in my posting on the subject. So if some of it is false or exaggerated, then I will admit that it is because of my bias coloring my views. Reality will correct my bias, as it always does.
No, I'm talking about the instances where the "tip-out" amounts a server pays to the...No, it is not sociopathic. Explain to me how it is, and whether you are you an accredited psychologist or psychiatrist as you make this claim.I'm sure it won't surprise you that I'm not a mental health professional. But, out of curiosity, would it matter if I were? Somehow I think you'd reject my assertion either way! Just a suspicion. (More importantly, why do you think that would matter? Sociopathy is not a diagnosis, just a description for a type of behavior.)
It's sociopathic because you are, with full knowledge of exactly what you are doing, breaching the social contract between restaurant-goer and wait staff to compensate them for their professional service in waiting your table, and doing so primarily because you know you can get away without repercussion. You are dealing material harm to someone else's livelihood (see: other stories in this thread about wait staff actually having to pay for customers who tipped poorly, to say nothing of those who tipped not at all), however small that harm may be, and justifying it to yourself as a "principled" move. It doesn't matter what you think the situation should be. The situation is that tipping is expected and that not doing so is a total jackass move and demonstrates an incredible lack of empathy.
The bolded part is illegal. It's illegal for an employer to:
-charge you for customers who skip out
-not pay you minimum wage
-withhold tipsNow, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but that indicates that there are flaws in the system and I'm very sorry for anyone who has been a victim of employers who violate these rules. It's one of the reasons I think the system should be abolished.
So, if a customer doesn't tip and that lack of tip reduces your hourly wage below minimum wage, the employer MUST make up the difference.
You're missing the point.
Add up how much money you make from your job. Divide it by the hours worked. If you come up with less than $7.25, your employer is breaking the law.
It's true that for a single table, a "tip-out" can reduce your income, but if it reduces it below $7.25 an hour, your employer MUST make up the difference. If they don't, they are breaking the law.
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You're missing the point.
I'm not. I promise, I get all of what you're saying, and you're absolutely correct. It is still true, however, that someone who tips poorly can actually end up reducing the amount that a server makes for an evening if they are forced to cannibalize tips from earlier in the evening to tip-out other staff. No, they won't make less than minimum wage, but what I'm trying to highlight (and what the person who brought the tip-out story up originally was trying to highlight) is that they would actually have made more money if the person who tipped poorly had never walked in the door in the first place. They're effectively paying a (small) portion of what they would have made that evening for the pleasure of serving a douchebag customer.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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I tend to not tip but not out of douchebaggery. I want the wait staff to be angry. I want them to complain to their boss. They deserve a guaranteed fair wage and shouldn't feel like they have to kiss ass to get one nor do I think customers should feel they have to bribe someone to not f!+~ with their food or give them poor service. This whole exchange is inherently antagonistic and is unnecessary. I'd gladly pay more for eating out if this were remedied.
When I do tip I tip well even upwards of 50-75% if you really impressed me with your service. I make good money.
If you don't tip, don't eat out. Simple solution. You're abusing the system out of a pretense of nobility.
Woah.Can't access the link at work :/
Maddy on 60 Minutes opining that furthering American goals in Iraq was worth a half million dead kids.
Yeah, ask the Accelerationists how well that s+## worked out for them.
I would but like when you brought them up last year, I don't know who they are.
Stiffing waitstaff is as useless as economic sanctions to effect regime change, which is in turn as useless as tearing down social safety nets to accelerate the Glorious People's Workers' Rebellion (the goal of the aforementioned Accelerationists).
I look them up on wikipedia, get a quote from Marx on free trade, what looks like a couple of Situationists and a bunch of cyber stuff that I didn't even bother looking through. Nothing about tearing down social safety nets to usher in the Glorious People's Revolution, though. Maybe they were anarchists?
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Again with the douchebag customer insults.
The employers are the real douchebags Scott, the custom that you like, respect so much and insist we should all follow supports terribly low standard wages because, they can make it up in tips.
Clearly you forgot the most important rule. And no, it is not always tip.
You can both be douchebags.
You're missing the point.I'm not. I promise, I get all of what you're saying, and you're absolutely correct. It is still true, however, that someone who tips poorly can actually end up reducing the amount that a server makes for an evening if they are forced to cannibalize tips from earlier in the evening to tip-out other staff. No, they won't make less than minimum wage, but what I'm trying to highlight (and what the person who brought the tip-out story up originally was trying to highlight) is that they would actually have made more money if the person who tipped poorly had never walked in the door in the first place. They're effectively paying a (small) portion of what they would have made that evening for the pleasure of serving a douchebag customer.
Reducing how much money a person makes and forcing them to pay to work for you are not the same thing, no matter how much you want to twist it to seem like it.
Serving is a low wage job. You're also providing services WITHOUT agreeing to the value of those services before hand. It's a risk, where the assumed benefit is higher pay for good service, but that doesn't remove the fact that there is RISK involved. You can't have the benefit without the risk.
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My mother was a career waitress until she got hurt. And my stepfather was a bell captain at a large, famous hotel. Add to that the fact that I grew up relatively poor, and you end up with a very good tipper. I tip well, and I tip at least the standard even when the service isn't great. Because I understand what it's like working for tips first hand.
As to myself, I have a had a delivery job or two where people tipped. That was rare, but it happened on occasion. I also have worked in places with a tip jar as opposed to a tip on the tabe after the bill (coffee houses). Even a tip jar can make a significant difference over the course of a week or two.
As to the standard in the US, actually it did used to be a very, very regional thing. Some of you may be too young to remember, but there used to be cards printed on plastic, that showed what was a customary tip, state to state. You could buy them at stationery stores and they sometimes came with dayplanners or certain wallets. I think AAA even used to hand them out in their offices.
Around here it's 15%, as in most of Northern California that is "twice tax." (Actually, it's a little less than twice tax in most places around SF.) We use the term "twice tax" here to make it easier on ourselves: you look at the tax on the bill and double it, and that's your tip. That's a bit over 15%, which is nice for the server, as well.
As is the case everywhere, there are a few establishments that calculate the tip in the final bill. Usually, that is only done when there are a certain number of people. A large group will merit that at a really nice Japanese place, for instance, while a smaller group can add the tip themselves. I don't mind too much, as most of those places print a disclaimer on their menus telling you at what dollar total or how large a group the tip will automatically be added. What DOES chafe my hide is when they calculate a percentage of the total, including the tax. You're not supposed to do that. We've had a few arguments over the years, over that.