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My group and I have played through the intro-scenario (3 adventures) and Burnt Offerings twice through, and part of Skinsaw Murders now. Throughout that, we've primarily played with two 4-character groups. We've tried other sizes, but I've been wondering if there is some possible balance issues with the number of characters vs. the size of the blessings deck.
The crux of the problem is that the number of locations changes based on the number of characters you have, but not the rounds you have. Sure, more characters equals more options, more ability to handle the problems, but it gets to a point where too many characters seems worse than fewer.
For example, a 1 character party will have 3 locations to explore with 10 cards each. If the henchman/villain was at the bottom of every single deck, and they found the villain last, then this character would take 30 turns to go through. This means 1 card per blessing. So long as they can explore 1 card a turn on average and clear it (not too difficult), they will be fine.
A 4 character party has it a bit more difficult. The number of locations goes up to 6, with a total of 60 cards. This group now needs to cover an average of 2 locations a turn (at most) in order to succeed. Keep in mind, these numbers are at the extreme, most of the time you will find a henchmen/villain earlier then last. :)
On the opposite end, a 6 character party has 80 cards to go through, getting close to an average of 3 cards per turn necessary to succeed.
As I said above, you would think that more characters = better. You can spread damage around, you have more options, etc. However, there are benefits to fewer characters. You can stack the boons better for extra HP, you can manage damaged characters easier, there's less risk of those cards that require everyone to fight something. Also, you get to redraw quicker. If I decide to spend 1 of my 5 cards (Blessing) on another player, I only have to wait a turn or two to get back to me in a small game. In a bigger game, there's 5 players between my turns, so my hand size can grow smaller much more quickly.
4 seems to be the magic number, though we have gotten pretty close to running out a number of times (Holy Candle = best item in the game). Still, I wonder if there should be a change in the amount of time you have based on the party size. Nothing extreme, heck, maybe smaller for fewer players. Something like:
1 character = 26 turns
2 characters = 28 turns
3 characters = 30 turns
4 characters = 32 turns
5 characters = 34 turns
6 characters = 36 turns
I'd love to hear from people that play regular larger parties, do you find yourself running out of time too often?
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No it shouldn't. There are a number of threads explaining this, but in a nutshell.
With more PCs, you have more opportunities to make extra explores with your Blessings & Allies. But it requires a change in play style. If you are only playing 1 or 2 PCs then you are usually using your Blessings and Allies on the active turn because there isn't as many PCs to help you out. Meanwhile, in a 5 or 6 PC game, you are using your Blessings and Allies for extra explores because you have the potential of other forms of help from the other PCs.
Also, with more PCs, you technically don't have to close as many locations to win the game. Since you can temporarily close a location, then you should have some of your PCs spread out to do this if the Villain is found. Thus you can win the scenario faster.
Personally I think this is the beauty of the game. The limited Blessings deck forces you to play differently depending on how many players are playing.
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The number of PCs doesn't change the number of locations you don't have to close, the locations scale appropriately. They are always X + 2 (X number of Characters). A 1-player group will need to close two locations before they can take out the villain. A 4-player group will need to do the exact same (close 2 of 6 locations, send 3 of the characters to the other 3, kill the villain in the last).
As for the extra explores and opportunities, that actually makes it harder. Smaller parties don't need to spend their blessings to explore every turn, where-as with 5-6 player parties, you pretty much need to be exploring twice a turn to have a good chance.
Again though, I'm playing off of doing 18 games with 4-characters, 3 with 5, and 3 with 2. The 5 character games definitely seemed a bit more challenging then the smaller ones, especially if you have some of the weaker characters.
Everybody goes through this bit of mental gymnastics. When I first showed the game to the greater Paizo team, Jason Bulmahn started down this path out loud. Chad started to correct him, but I held him back. Jason started working it out in his head, and then said, "Nope, I'm wrong. The number's 30."
As the number of players increases, the game can't kill you as easily. It gets fewer opportunities to do so since you have fewer turns. So its job is to get you to kill yourself. You do that by blowing your resources on trying to assist others and exploring whenever you can. Because the pressure is on you to play more cards, you dig deeper into your deck. Racing the clock becomes a "how can I spend more" puzzle, while in a one- or two-player game, it's often a "how can I spend less" puzzle.
That's the theory, anyway. YMMV.
Mike
What Mike had to say about it, on a different thread/same subject.
Edit* - Link to referenced thread.
Regarding OP:
1 Player - 30 Turns - 30 Location Cards
6 Players - 30 Turns - 80 Location Cards
Math says yes, it should be dynamic. Play arguments can be seen different ways
I think the game works just fine as is, even with more players. That being said, each player has only so many extra explores they could possibly have (Ezren technically has the least, with no blessings, but his power can make up for it; Sajan has 3 allies and 8 blessings, for a total of up to 11 extra explores without healing). What that means is that the more characters you use at once, the greater the odds of a scenario occurring for which it is impossible to win.
This could happen, theoretically if, for example every villain/henchmen ended up on the bottom of every location deck (very long odds on that) and there was nothing that caused the decks to be shuffled or re-ordered (also quite unlikely). Still, I have to admit, it can feel more than a little unsatisfying if you take advantage of every extra explore, never fail a check and still lose the scenario (this has a non-zero probability of happening, even if its a low one).
Still, most characters have around 7 potential extra explores (allies or blessings), so if you draw reasonably well and play these cards for explorations more than dice added to checks, the 30 turn limit is not that big of a deal.
It really should NOT change with more players. It's genius as it is.
The game is very *different* with 1 vs 6 characters and your style / priorities are different but that's fine. It actually means you have 2-3 games in 1 box since the aims/methods/styles of playing with different numbers of characters vary greatly.
Time is really short with 6 characters, but you have somebody who can do everything. Plus only 2 out of six of you need to close a location before you can corner the villain with temp-closes.
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Time is really short with 6 characters, but you have somebody who can do everything. Plus only 2 out of six of you need to close a location before you can corner the villain with temp-closes.
I'm not sure why this keeps getting mentioned as a benefit. Again, the number of locations adjusts with the number of players. No matter your group size, you will *always* have to close 2 locations before you can seal off the villain. :)
Time is really short with 6 characters, but you have somebody who can do everything. Plus only 2 out of six of you need to close a location before you can corner the villain with temp-closes.I'm not sure why this keeps getting mentioned as a benefit. Again, the number of locations adjusts with the number of players. No matter your group size, you will *always* have to close 2 locations before you can seal off the villain. :)
Yes but isn't that task easier to do with more players to increase the odds that someone will be able to cover the gaps that some characters have?
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Okay let me try it this way....you are concerned with the number of Ally and Blessing cards you need to use to now explore and not use for their other abilities. But that is completely fine. Because you have more Allies and Blessings to use during the course of the game as you add PCs.
Example:
1 character 15 character cards - 3 locations 30 location cards
2 character 30 character cards - 4 locations 40 location cards
3 character 45 character cards - 5 locations 50 location cards
4 character 60 character cards - 6 locations 60 location cards
5 character 75 character cards - 7 locations 70 location cards
6 character 90 character cards - 8 locations 80 location cards.
If you think of it that way, you get your progression you are asking for. With only 1 character you only have 1/2 of the number of character cards to get through that many location cards. This improved until you reach 4 characters which gives yo a 1 - 1 ratio. Finally at 6 character you have an advantage on the game of 10 extra cards.
This explains why you have to change your play style. Yea the 'clock' doesn't change, but your 'hand' does. Basically at some point in the game, probably around 4 characters you should be less worried about the clock managing your time, but actually the Ally & Blessing cards in your hand.
I echo what h4ppy says, the locked Blessing deck is one of the brilliant things about this game. If the Blessing deck changed with the number of PCs, then it wouldn't matter how many you played. 1 PC would feel just the same as 6 PCs [not really, but pointing it out for effect]. Because it is locked, when you have only 1 character, you biggest concern is...can I make that check. You typically have so much time, the Blessings deck kinda becomes and after thought. When are you playing 6 players, you have a lot of help on your checks, so your main concern becomes...can we find and defeat the Villain before the clock runs out. There aren't a lot of games that have that dramatic of a difference depending on how many players are actually playing.
We've tried this and with more players it always seems you run out of turns before your find or catch the villain, especially if he's at the bottom of a deck.