Here's a first draft of my initial thoughts:
** spoiler omitted **
Where is the pricing for this item coming from? It seems a little low to me. After all the mage armor function alone ought to cost 2000 gp at CL 2.
I suppose that's reasonable. Given when it'll be bought the savings will be pretty miniscule.
For the 20th level ability that ignores SR. Is it saying that:
A. If a beguiler targets a creature that has SR the beguiler can ignore SR.
OR
B. If someone is currently under the effect of spell or ability that came from the beguiler that the beguiler gets to ignore SR.
Example of B:
Round 1:Beguiler cast spell X which has a duration of 1 round or greater and rolls high enough to bypass SR.
Round 2: Since the creature is under the effect of a spell that came from the beguiler any spell cast this round automatically bypasses it
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Ooo exciting! I can't wait to go over everything. I just read over the artifact and it sounds really cool. One thing I did notice is that it seems to be missing one of the deadly sins (there's only six tokens, but seven deadly sins).
Hi ertw,
I've been using your conversion for a character of mine for a few months now and I'm really enjoying it. I wanted to drop in to leave one comment about something that has confused me: the pricing on the night's watch. I love the flavor of this item, but it seems way overpriced since a wand of keep watch offers much of the same benefits for a fraction of the price. It's kind of disheartening given the fact that the beguiler's raiment set bonuses are such a clever idea, but the overpriced nature of the night's watch acts like a gatekeeper on the set that's hard to justify.
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That looks fantastic. This is exciting. Thank you ertw.
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Hey there, I absolutely love the look of this conversion. May I ask how you managed to get it looking so much like an actual paizo product?
It's really great to see that people are still working to recreate some of my 3.5 favorites like the beguiler. While looking this over I was struck with a little inspiration myself. I think you may have a decent framework to build a factotum look alike as a beguiler archetype. Give it more skills/level, an inspiration pool like an investigator, let it use savy preparation for a wider stable of spells and swap order powers out for the factotum's other class feature mimicing abilities. Just though5 I'd drop the suggestion incase you liked it.
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That sounds like a really fun idea, GreenGrapes.
How does sorcerous dabbler work for spells with a casting time greater than a minute?
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Here's the basic layout for what I'm thinking of for this factotum-beguiler hybrid. The language will need to be cleaned up, but I hope it gives you enough to offer any comments/thoughts you might have. I have no experience with the factotum myself so I hope it captures the feeling of the class adequately.
** spoiler omitted **...
Looks great! The only thing I think could make it better is be something like the empiricist investigator's ability to use Int for a wider variety of skills.
It seems generic enough for the main conversion document but I guess if you could "root it more" in the Inner Sea/Golarion, then that should work for putting it in the BotIS. ;)
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Well if people are satisfied with the shape of the capricious professional, I can write it up and push it out some time in the next week or so. A question to the thread: do you think it belongs in the main conversion document or BotIS? My gut says BotIS because its versatility may make it more powerful than most beguiler options, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on the matter.
Unless you have a setting specific reason to put it in BotIS, I'd keep in in the beguiler conversion proper. This isn't a huge power level bump (I'd say it looks more like a sidegrade personally) so there's no real reason not to give the archetype as much exposure as you can.
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Tiny update on umbral reaver pushed out tonight, I had forgotten to write up the ability that allows the slayer to keep using quarry after losing studied target.
Hi ERTW, my sincere compliments for all the work and love you have put into this Beguiler conversion. I greatly enjoy reading it and am planning to play a Beguiler again.
I've been a D&D player for over 25 years and made a 3.5ed 'Beguiler Handbook' (some) 12 years ago under the name 'Nicholas the Paladin'. My life has changed greatly since then, and also has my time for D&D/PF. I'm currently on a holiday, so I have a bit more time and want to help you for what it's worth.
My quick feedback on the Beguiler Conversion (excuse my Dutch English):
In my view that Beguiler is more a full spellcaster than a melee-character and more a specialist than a 'hybrid' jack-of-all-trades. It also more a roguish spellcaster than a spellcasting rogue, in my opinion. This central concept of a 'roguish specialist spellcaster' formes the basis for my comments on your conversion.
The base class
- BAB: the medium BAB for a hybrid class is the right choice
- Reflex: I'm partial about the good Reflex-save, but this might also be fitting for the hybrid nature of the Beguiler
- Surprise Casting: this is stil a weak element in the Beguiler built, since in essence a Beguiler isn't a melee character with it's AC, HP's and BAB (IMHO). The 'improved feint' feat at 2nd level makes it a more realistic tactic, but it's still mediocre. I suppose this is a way to satisfy the players that want some melee capabilities, but I think that a Beguiler that values his life will stay out of melee and melee range. If it were up to my I would cancel this ability altogether.
- Trapfinding: I understand that Trapfinding is usefull in a group that only has one Roguish character. But it's also arguable for the Beguiler class, that is all about (magical) deception, coercien and cleverness. I would think it would be more fitting the concept if the Beguiler has a +1/2 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy. This would make the 'Suprise Casting' ability also more viable (although that might not be my best argument). You also consider a +1/2 bonus for Bluff and Sense Motive or for saves versus Illusions and Charm/Enhantments (he's a specialist). Overall, I'm neutral towards this ability, also since it already was a Beguiler ability in 3.5
- Cloaked Casting: Yes, very well done. With the introduction of the 'Hidden signs' ability, CC has been given a much more central place. This is a simple solution to a flaw that was part of the original Beguiler.
- Cloaked Casting: On the other hand, I regard CC as a capstone ability, that deserves more impact like the Ranger's Favoured Enemy (FE). Now it's almost negligible. The Beguiler is a specialist: I'd would make it an ever increasing power (like FE) of 2nd, 8th, 14th and 20th level: (2) +1DC, (8) +2DC and +2SR, (14) +3DC, +3SR and (20) +4 DC and overcome SR , when using Cloaked Casting
- Improved Feint: as I said, i regard this a 'patching' of a weak ability and weak concept in the first place. Better give a bonus feat that strengthens the central concept of a 'roguish specialist spellcaster', like 'spellfocus' for Illusion or Enchantment/Charm or metamagic feats that work solely for those two schools
- Savvy Preparation: I like the idea of certain flexibility for each day. A day in the city might be different than one in a dungeon. I see it as alternative version of the old 'Advanced Learning' ability, that had more choice in spells (also non-Beguilers ill/Ench spells) but was fixed once chosen. In the end it might give less flexibility than intended, since most campaigns will not permit the use of all books (we only use CORE and APH).
- Hidden Signs: Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is what the Beguiler and CC ability needed to be more effective and it is more in line with its concept. Very good.
- Muddling Aegis: A very good idea and completely in line with the concept of a roguish spellcaster. The Beguiler covers is tracks.
- Silent spell / Still Spell: Very good. It is as with the original 3.5 Beguiler, but the lack of increase of casting duration is deserved and in line with te concept.
- Calculated Coercion: Thank you. No more MAD. The Beguiler truly is a INT-based caster.
- Swift Feint: see my comments on Surprised Casting and Improved Feint
- Hide in Plain Sight: HIPS is a very interesting ability, but an introduction on 17th level will give it almost no playtime. I would say, introduce it on 8-10 level and delete Surprised Casting, Improved Feint and Swift Feint altogether. The melee-Beguilers might object at first, but a more early introduction of HIPS also fits their needs more than necessary.
I hope this helps !
I will comment of the Orders on a later moment. As of now, I regard the Order of te Arcane Hand as the most viable.
Hi ERTW,
Some more feedback
Spells
This is an enormous list from multiple sources. Likely 90% from the DM's will only allow a part of these books. But for the 10% of players that can use alle books, the list might be too long. It gives less credibility to the argument that a narrow spell-list justifies all the extra powers. But that's only my opinion and estimation.
I'll only respond to your newly made Beguiler spells.
First comment is that you win first price for complex and original spell-names. Who are Bragg and Fidget?
Level 0:
- Shadowy Heist: this should be at least a 1st level spel. Non-attended objects seem to be easily stolen with this spell.
Level 3:
- Redouble Dependence: I'm not familiar with addictions, but this spell seems okay for the level. Maybe even a bit weak. The double save weakens it and the 2nd save DC is a bit odd. I woud make it one save.
Level 4:
- Bragg's Reflecting Trick: The description of this spell is mind-boggling. What's the intention and practical use of this spell?
- Phantasmal Conduit: This is a very cool spell. As I understand it, it's a mix of 'Mirror Image' (1d4 +1/3lvl images, max 8) and short range personal 'Dimension Door.' The MI is when the images are next to the Beguiler and the DD (requiring no action) is when they are further away. This can be very powerfull. But since i see the potential, I want it to work. I suggest that the MI works when a figment/double is within 5ft, making it more flexible. I assume that you want to 'shift' around the battlefield, escaping melee-types and burning their actions. Therefore you'll want to position your doubles on tactical places. Shifting should be able on your turn (free action) and on the attackers turn (immediate action), to be in line with this concept. This makes the spell even stronger. But in order to make it balanced, I would strongly suggest you give it a 1rd/level duration. Also, it should be able for attackers to attack a double/figment: figments should have your AC or just AC10+your dex-mod.
- Viral Thoughts: seems okay and in line with the Beguiler concept.
Level 5:
- Extradimensional Alley: Is this just another form of 'Rope Trick'? If so, than make it a 2nd level spell and make the description a lot shorter.
- Flynns H Veil: what's the aim of this spell? It's almost an illusion and and a Charm spell in one. if it's only to avoid attention, than a 3rd level spell would be enough.
Level 6:
- L Last Resort: This seems like a beforehand programmed Teleport and the perfect escape method in a dungeon gone wrong. It has therefore it's merits (auto-success), but also it's limitations (one destination). Overall, I think a level 5 would be enough.
- Move Heavens: Very dramatic, but in the end not very powerful. It can bring Rangers and scouts to madness, but its application seems limited. I would say that spell-level 3 would be enough.
- Viral Amnesia: this can be powerfull in specific roleplay situations. In the end it's pretty situational. I would make it a 5th of even 4th level spell.
Level 7:
- Navas Dreaming Puppet: Seems a overly complex form of Dominate Person, with a lot of fluff text. What's the extra aim of this spell?
Level9:
- Fidgets MoN: I would not allow this spell in my game. Greater Invisibility is bad as it is. I would adjust this spell to, that it would negate 'see invisibility' and 'true seeing'. But let the other senses for what they are: a perfect tool to sabotage a PC's perfect plan. Therefore make it a lower level spell.
- Tormented Reconditioning: What's the aim of this spell? If you want to torture and torment a person, there are simpler ways. You could also just kill the person
- Tyrone's Mind Eraser: Like 'Viral Amnesia' it can be a very powerfull spell in specific roleplay situations. Besides more targets, this spell gives much more creative freedom and flexibility. I suggest making it a 8th level spell and giving the targets a way of regaining their old memories (like by a wish).
I think te Orders add a layer of extra depth to the Beguiler class. Very nice indeed. But I think that some Orders are nicer than others, because they better able to build on the strengths and central concept of the Beguiler.
I'll start with some feedback on the first two Orders.
Arcane Hand
I think this is my favourite, since it fits my view of the Beguiler the best: the concept of a 'roguish specialist spellcaster'
- arcane bond is okay
- 'artful invocation' and specifically the subpower 'subtle casting' are nice
- how should I see 'subtle casting' combined with the basic BG-skill 'Cloaked Spellcasting' and 'Hidden Signs'? They are somehwat the same, but Cloaked Spellcasting gives +bonuses and ' subtle casting' gives a -penalty. I like it, but became confused when reading it more thorough. Is casting in a sneaky manner not supposed to give you a BONUS?
- ' spectacular casting' seems to be nice, but on the other hand it's not in line with the Beguiler concept. Why a bonus for being pompous?
- Spell Mimic is cool and somewhat overpowered, since you can copy a spell out of thin air. What's the conceptual idea behind this?
Baleful Shadow
This is a more melee oriented Beguiler, which to me is a bit counter intuitive.
- stygian step: nice. Our rogue would love this. The added mobility feels a bit powerful
- wraith strike: seems nice, but in the end it will not add much. +3d4 at 13th level...and you out yourself in melee-range? The ranged attack is more viable, but the extra damage is still low
- shadow trickery: some of these powers are nice, but will only come at 13th level and every 3 levels after. I would choose 'stygian jump' and leave the 'stygian step' altogether
I'm afraid that I don't agree with the concept of the Balefull Shadow Order, since it takes a weak part of the Beguiler (melee) and adds weak extra melee-powers. If 'shadow powered mobility' is the central concept, than I would build on that: that would really add something valuable.
I hope this helps !
The current thing I've had rolling around in my mind is a Tian Xia flavoured beguiler order trading on the continent's ninja traditions (for the BotIS document). I'm having trouble hammering down a sequence of order powers that I really like for it, so I figured I might as well open the floor to any suggestions to see if I can find a direction that really grabs me. What would you like to see out of a ninja themed beguiler order?
I love this idea. The most obvious option to me seems like poaching abilities from the ninja class itself. Stuff like the ki pool and ninja talents seem ripe for the picking. You might want to look at Everyman Gaming's unchained ninja or Dreamscarred Press's stalker for more inspiration.
Before I give my feedback on the other Orders, I woud like to make a more general comment on the Orders:
I would really like the Orders to work and be accepted by DM's. My situation: Our group consists of 6 senior players, who all are a DM in turn. So all new additions are discussed and decided as a group. So I expect these Orders will really recieve some scrutiny.
Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.
But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.
Or am I missing something?
And now some feedback on the 3rd Order.
Counterfit Blood
I think the basic idea of this Order is very fitting for the Beguiler and completely in line with its concept. It really adds something to a conceptual aspect of the Beguiler. My compliments for this idea and its elaboration.
What is the maximum of Alterego's that a Beguiler can attain? I would say 1/level or even 1/2 levels (levels 1, 3, 5 etc), depending on their strength. DM discrestion.
- Alter Ego: very nice. I assume this is a non-magical disguise. But what are the limitations to this alter-ego? Is this strictly a DM decision?
- 3rd level: this seems a mix of extra abilities, so it's a bit confusing. Also the introduction of 'free' spells in the proces, might be its weakness. These spells can be detected or dispelled.
- 3rd level: I therefore suggest that you introduce these spells (vocal alteration etc) at 4th level and make them immune to detection, like with detect alignment.
- veiled facade (7th): What wold be the benefit of this? See my comments on the 3rd level ability. Fast and flexible change of alter ego is nice, but is very situational will not get much use. The 1st level ability which requires (almost) no magic is still the capstone.
- "Once per day,...": This I think could be a separate ability. What is its practical use and aim?
- dauntless deception (13th): so you practically are immune to some divination spells. be specific what these are, since at 15th you become immune to all.
I don't have feedback on the spells, since most of them I don't know.
I suggest you balance this Order but taking something away form the base Beguiler class. My suggestion would be 2 or 3 of the following:
- all the 3 'feint' abilities: away with melee
- Trapfinding: a city slicker won't be in dungeons much
- Calculated Coercion: charisma might be needed after all
My two cents for the 4th Order:
Ghastly Claw
This represents the 'necromatic' and 'assassination' aspects of the Beguiler.... what strikes me as a bit odd. Illusion and Enchantment don't go well with Necromancy. Deception might work with assassination, but in the end it's a much more subtle and intelligent force. I have my(conceptual) doubts with this Order. You also already know how I feel about melee-combat and Beguilers.
My feedback on the abilities:
- spells: again I don' know some of these spells. But I don't find it fitting that a Beguiler focussed on melee gets *extra* spells. I would take them away
- paralyzing strike (1st): this fits an assassin, but It's a significant increase in power.
- death blow (7th): this fits an assassin, but It's a pretty circumstantial ability.
- 12th level: this is an extra ability, so a name is justified. It breathes 'assassin' again
- malicious maneuver (13, 17th): it's a nice list, but the weakness is that (if I understand correctly) for every maneuver you need to make at least 2 'malicious maneuvers'. I count 1 for trip, 1 for bullrush, 1 for dirty trick, 1 for grapple, 1 for reposition, 1 for disarm/steal.
I'm not keen on this Order, but I think that when allowed you should take away the following Beguiler powers:
- Savvy Preparation: more melee, less spellcaster
- Muddling Aegis: more melee, less roguish spellcaster
- Still Spell: more melee, less roguish spellcaster (Silent spell is stil fitting the concept)
Petrified Mind
I like this concept and Order. I think it fits nicely with the Beguiler concept. It revolves around the 'intimidate' skill, with which i don't have much experience. But being a 'skill' I think that it will be mostly effective versus lower level characters and monsters. Besides that, it takes time, making it a mostly out-of-combat ability.
Why not give the illusion a magical 'fear' effect' on mid/higher levels?
- Daunting Illusions (1st): nice ability, although not very powerfull. I understand that this work for ALL illusions, form silent image to major image and all the shadow-spells. I think the skill check should be a little easier, with 3rd level 'major image' being the startingpoint: +0. Every level under gives -2 and every level over 3rd level gives a +2.
- I also think that a specialist focussing on 'intimidating illusions' is very capable of making them believable form up close. So I would find a +2 DC for disbelieving them reasonable.
- Creaping Fear (7th): Nice, but it takes time. At this level you're better of using magical Fear: it's a lot quicker and usually more successful.
- 12 th level: give it a name, like 'Creeping Terror'. Again, relying on a skill at 12th level is not very effective. .... BUT see my comment at 13th level
- Petrifying Aura (13th): finally, this is more effective. But this should be available at a lower level. Also since the 'shaken condition' is not a big thing: -2 penalty. I suggest you replace 'Creaping Fear' at 7th leve with "Petrifying Aura".
- Also, making it a spell of 2 level highers is absurd for such a minor effect, that álso requires a save. (Also, being 'shaken' is hardly being 'petrified' ;-P)
- 11th level: I suggest, you add another ability that does justice to this Order. It should be a 'Petrifying Aura' but with a Fear -effect (frightened), like with Cause Fear spell. I would say that this only works for Illusion spells from 3rd level (Major Image) and up. You might consider a +1 spell level and a range of 30ft
- 15th level: again, but now with a 'panicked' condition as per Fear spell. I would say that this only works for Illusion spells from 3rd level (Major Image) and up. You might consider a +3 spell level and a range of 30ft as the spell
Again, I don't know most of the extra spells.
Overall, I think it's a nice concept that needs a boost in power and practical application (also in combat).
I suggest you balance this Order by taking something away form the base Beguiler class. My suggestion would be 2 or 3 of the following:
- all the 3 'feint' abilities: fear, no melee
- Trapfinding: he's used to doing things through his illusions
- Savvy Preparation: focus brings less flexibility
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Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.
But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.Or am I missing something?
The orders don't trade out powers because they're not archetypes or variants, they're character options. Think of them like a sorcerer's bloodline. In my game I've found the orders a vital part of bringing the beguiler into the fold of pathfinder's internal balance where sorcerers have their bloodlines and wizards have their school powers.
The orders don't trade out powers because they're not archetypes or variants, they're character options. Think of them like a sorcerer's bloodline. In my game I've found the orders a vital part of bringing the beguiler into the fold of pathfinder's internal balance where sorcerers have their bloodlines and wizards have their school powers.Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.
But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.Or am I missing something?
Maybe I didn't use the right terminologie, but what I meant to say is that I don't want this promising Beguiler-conversion (!!) to go bust because of extra rules that aren't as thought out as the base-class (sorry). What I as a DM (and my fellow DM's/players) always look out for when presented with new options for players/PC is :
1) is it balanced?2) is it playable? (rule-wise; doesn't it 'clog' the gameplay)
3) Does it have overall Quality
If either one is compromised, it will not be allowed or needs to be reworked. Once in a while you take the risk and try, but with 25 years of experience (x6) we're able to prevent a lot of problems before they happen.
1) Balance
Not all Orders are balanced or the total of extras on tóp of the Base Beguiler-class isn't. That's a shame, since the Base class in itself is. The base class might need some rework to make it better playable (I'll get back on that very extensively in a separate post), but at least it's balanced. The Orders add extra powers, that threatens that balance ... and therefore the viability of the base class. That would really be a shame.
To make these Orders a must, I think is a mistake: at least, *as it stands nów*. Make it an option, make them or the base-class weaker or make them extra's that have serious trade-offs. Presenting them as must-take Sorceror-Bloodlines isn't needed for the impact of the Beguiler base. It's strong enough as it is now, especially with the LONG spell-list.
In my experience Players (like myself) get carried away in their enthusiasm (like myself) and present all the (very good) ideas, but in the end forget that they don't play in a vacuum. I've also made that mistake myself manyfold (mea culpa) and it has threatened a new character, new idea and sometimes even the cohesion of a group of players (some people left).
2) Playability
The Orders are relatively playable, although some need some rework or clarification in my opinion. Its not done, sorry. I already commented on almost all Orders. The mechanics don't aways work IMO.
Although I admire ERTW' work, he's also succeptible to a problem that creative and enthusiastic people usually have: they start a new idea, but forget to finish it. Again, I myself have made that mistake manyfold (!). When you create an Order, you really need to work it out, .....an that takes time and hard work, which we don't have unlimited next to work and a personal life.
Better to leave things out, than fill your great conversion with a pletora of even more new ideas. Better to choose.
3) Quality
I basically already said it all, but maybe a little more.
On the conceptual side, some Orders are of good Quality. I strongly disagree with Orders that embrace 'necromancy' since I think they have nóthing to do with a Beguiler (Shadow/Shadow-plane as far as I'm willing to go). On a more mellow side, I don't see a Beguiler as a melee character. But besides that, I really like most ideas.
But in order to give it real quality, a concept or idea needs to be fleshed out mechanically to become operational. I think some need some extra attention.
Please, don't get me wrong or be upset about my opinion. I really want this conversion to work, so I choose to be a bit blunt.
I'm busy to make a full analysis and advice on the central abilities of Cloaked Casting, Hidden Signs and the underlying Conceal Spell feat. These I regard as core. It's because I think that mechanically how it stand now, its not playable enough. I've seen many positive comments on this, but I just don't agree.
This analysis and advice takes time, because I want to do this right.
But before I send this, I wat to make a remark on the central concept of the Beguiler underlying the original and your conversion. What are core ingredient to the Beguiler concept and what isn't?
In order to answer this question I've taken my own experience and looked through the discussion that took place here the past 4 years.
Generally, Yes (some keywords):
- illusion and enchantment (and a smattering of divination or buffing)
- specialist, focussed spell-list,
- stealth, dodging, indirect, unseen, elusive, subterfuge
- rogue, free spririt, nomadic
- shadows, shadow plane
- coercien, manipulation, deceit
- urban
- creativity, spontaneous
- dream
- fey, CN, bloodline
Generally No (some keywords):
- necromancy, undead,
- polymorph
- enervation, curse
Neutral / Under discussion (some keywords):
- melee (although I've seen some comments from ERTW, that it doen't fit his idea of a beguiler
- orders/guilds, apostasies or loose individuals
- natural ally, summoning
- assasination
This might be a little late after 4 years, but I hope this helps somewhat on a conceptual level.
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I'm looking over the provisional update and I like most of what I see in terms of the new abilities and progressions. I especially like moving HiPS and swift feint up since not a lot of games end up at those kinds of levels and they're really neat tricks to get to play with. One big concern I have is the interaction of these two:
Cloaked casting now grants +1 bonus to save DCs at level 2, increasing by 1 every 6 levels thereafter. At level 8 rolls to overcome SR gain the same bonus. At level 19 SR is automatically overcome.
New ability aura of indiscretion causes those within 30 ft. to suffer a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks against you and -2 on Will saves against your abilities, gained at level 17.
A +4 to DCs is really strong, especially if you couple it with hidden signs to reliably trigger cloaked casting. Combining this with a penalty to enemy Will saves from the aura takes it even further. Add in a kitsune with the FCB that pumps enchantment DCs and you could easily end up with a heightened dominate or geas with a DC well into the 40s or 50s which could be game breaking.
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I've been reading over Nicholas' comments in the thread and they've been quite interesting and thought provoking. From where I sit it seems like what you want from the class doesn't quite dovetail with what Ertw has been trying to do with it over these years. You want a laser focused spellcaster, while Ertw has been building something more in line with pathfinder's updated meta of more expansive options and focuses for their classes. In the end it may well be that this might not be the conversion for you, or that limiting yourself to just the Arcane Hand is what is necessary to get it to work for you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that of course, lots of different people have different ideas about balance or play style and whatever works in your game is what you ought to use.
what I meant to say is that I don't want this promising Beguiler-conversion (!!) to go bust because of extra rules that aren't as thought out as the base-class (sorry).
Just as a sidenote, I'm pretty active on the pathfinder subreddit and the pathfinder general thread on 4chan and this conversion is very popular among both groups. I've rarely seen any mention of it being turned away from games for any reason beyond a blanket ban on non-Paizo materials.
I would d like to give some more analysis on three important abilities for the Beguiler:
1. ‘SUPRISE CASTING’
2. ‘HIDDEN SIGNS’, which makes use of the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat
3. Both feed into the ‘CLOAKED CASTING’ ability, which gives bonuses.
In effect, surprise casting and hidden signs offer conditions for the use of Cloaked Casting. These three abilities form an important basis and uniqueness or the spellcasting of the Beguiler. I playtested the mechanic with my fellow players in a mini-session through some scenario’s and we had the feeling that it could be streamlined. This was before you advanced HiPS.
I’ll analyze all 3 abilities below and will come to a practical proposition. This I mainly do with my role as a DM in mind.
1. SUPRISE CASTING
When you use the BLUFF-skill successfully, you can make an attack denying DEX (i.e. the Feint maneuver) and use it as a condition for spellcasting (i.e. Cloaked Casting). That’s it.
2. HIDDEN SIGNS
This ability gives:
- The ability to use the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat, without an increase of casting time
- The ability to use the INT-modifier instead of the DEX and CHA-modifier when using this feat
- The next line is confusing to me: “Furthermore, when she casts a beguiler spell without components, …, observers will not notice that a spell has been cast.” Isn’t that simply the effect of the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat?
- BUT, his ability is blocked by an observer using Detect Magic or ‘similar effects’, which is a bit vague. This in my opinion needs some adjustment, since a 0-level cantrip will ruin this (IMO) central ability automatically.
- Also: this ability is blocked by another Beguiler, which luckily is rather circumstantial, but also a bit too much IMO.
So, Hidden Signs is in the basis the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat, with some adjustments.
Do you agree?
The ‘Conceal Spell’ feat
SRD Text: ” When you cast a spell or use a spell-like ability, you can attempt to conceal verbal and somatic components among other speech and gestures, and to conceal the manifestation of casting the spell, so others don’t realize you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability…”
IIUC, This works as follows:
- Skill-check: your ‘BLUFF/DISGUISE’ based DC versus opponents ‘PECEPTION/SENSE/SPELLCRAFT’: In my experience this will most likely be your BLUFF versus their PERCEPTION (melee and monsters) or SPELLCRAFT (spellcasters)
- With a Beguiler the DC is 15 + BLUFF-ranks + INT versus d20 + PERC/SPELLC
- But an opponent gets a bonus equal to the level of the spell (whoops!)
- so on average you succeed on around 50% of the time: lower spells are easier (70%), but higher ones are harder (40%) to Cloak
BUT: When a spell has a somatic component (which is at least 80% of your spells) ánd a creature can see you, then they get an additional check and chance of ruining your deception:
- Skill-check: your ‘SLEIGTH OF HAND’ based DC versus opponents ‘PECEPTION/SPELLCRAFT’
- With a Beguiler the DC is 15 + SoH-ranks + INT versus d20 + PERC/SPELLC + level of your spell
- But again, an opponent gets a bonus equal to the level of the spell
- so on average, you succeed on around 50% of the time (provided that you maximize your ranks in SoH)
So if I understand this correctly, when a spell has a somatic component, you statistically have around 25% chance (0,50*0,50) pér opponent that you can Conceal a spell. Which is not very good, but at least you’re not losing anything actions.
Additionally, you get a more diverse set of results, the larger the group is: some fail and some succeed.
Also, ‘Conceal Spell’ also has other benefits:
- if successful, you don’t provoke AoO’s: which I regard as up for debate. You generally provoke AoO’s, because you perform a distracting act and divert your attention from the battle. While using Cloaked Casting (Conceal Spell), it can argued that you pay even more attention to the details of spellcasting.
- if successful, your opponent cannot ‘ready their actions’ on you casting a spell: this makes sense.
Important remark: as with Stealth, this might:
- require a lot (!!) of skill-checks of all opponents involved. From experience I know this will clog-down the gameplay and won’t make you a popular player. If others start to see that your rounds take a lot of time ánd are only successful in less than half the tries, they will become annoyed pretty quickly.
- Also, it might mean discussions on what opponent is able to see you (2 Conceal Spell checks) or isn’t able to see you (1 Conceal Spell check). For example, as result of several Steath/HiPS checks, prior.
Do you agree?
3. CLOAKED SPELLCASTING
Cloaked Casting gives a bonus to the spell’s DC and overcoming SR. In practice this is roughly done through 4 conditions:
1. Denying DEX through a ‘Feint’ action in close range
2. Denying DEX while being ‘Invisible’ or using ‘Stealth’ successfully
3. An opponent that is denied DEX because he’s ‘Blinded’.
4. Using ‘Hidden Signs’, not needing cover/concealment, which basically is the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat.
(I haven’t taken your recent advance of HiPS into account, which ofcourse is condition #2)
You already know my doubts about casting in melee-range. I regard the (improved/swift) Feint maneuver an unwise action for a squishy Beguiler. Using Feint in combat is something that will sometimes be used on the first few levels, but in the end will prove itself to be too risky. Also, as soon as you are able to HiPS or become Improved Invisible, Feint becomes practically obsolete.
Personally, as a Beguiler I would only use:
- Invisibility: ofcourse Invisibility will give you only a 1-shot chance, since it will dissipate afterwards.
- Improved Invisibility: Improved Invisibility is superior and will become very important (unfortunately it isn’t allowed in some groups, like ours)
- Once in a while, make use of a ‘Blinded’ opponent: this will not happen often
- More likely I would try to use ‘Stealth’ and try use long-range spells that have no clear place of origin, making it easier to use Stealth again: but likely, this also will also only work once or twice. With HiPS, this will change greatly.
- Use ‘Hidden Signs/Conceal Spell’ while not being invisible or hiding: it is likely that you try this very often, since its application is flexible.
This means, in my estimation, that:
- ‘Hidden Signs/Conceal Spell’ is a very important ability that will see much use (especially before HiPS kicks in) and will be valuable your whole career.
- Also, In my estimation this a ‘cloggy’ system that has a mediocre chance of success.
Do you agree?
MY CONCLUSION
My main conclusion is, that even though I’m very happy about your adaptation with ‘Hidden Signs’/ConcealSpell, in practice it could be a fairly unpleasant experience.
Also my conclusions is that ‘Hidden Signs’ is a véry important ability for the practical functioning of Cloaked Casting, will be valuable until high levels and in the basis is an adaptation of ‘Conceal Spell’. It’s a mechanic that sets one of the most important conditions (maybe thé most important condition) for using Cloaked Casting.
Roughly speaking: Hidden Signs = Conceal Spell = (besides HiPS) the most important condition and underlying mechanic for Cloaked Casting.
Also, ‘Still Spell’ and ‘Silent Spell’ are linked to Cloaked Casting in your version, making the CC-ability even more important. I think it would be very wise if you process (part of) this mechanic directly in the (skill-checks) workings of Conceal Spell/Hidden Signs. You would make all players very happy and their group too. I’ll give some suggestions below.
MY ADVICE
I would really like the mechanic behind Cloaked Casting to become much simpler and straightforward.
In the end, what I think that we want for a Beguiler is:
- Him (in concept) to be a ‘roguish spellcaster’ and therefore a caster that is (in practice) encouraged to be sneaky as much as possible
- He will become better at this as he levels up: by rising skill-ranks in BLUFF, but also the processing of his peculiar magical- talent (e.g. Silent Spell and Still spell) into his roguish spellcasting
- Him to be a ‘normal’ spellcaster, without the bonuses, when he fails in his sneakiness
To be exact, I would like you advise you to do the following:
1. Combine ‘Cloaked Casting ‘and (the adjusted mechanics of) ‘Conceal Spellcasting’(Hidden Signs) in one central Beguiler ability simply named ‘Cloaked Casting’(at 2nd level). The adapted mechanics of the Conceal Spell feat are behind this ability and presented below. Hidden Sign will effectively be removed as an ability
2. This mechanic lets all opponents make only one check
- 2nd level: one simple skill-check of DC 10 + BLUFF-ranks + INT with a PERCEPTION or SPELLCRAFT check (around 50% chance): so 15 becomes 10, the second SoH-check disappears, no dependence on spell-level
- Every even level (4th, 6th, 8th etc) you recieve a +1 bonus . This could also be reflected in my earlier advice, to remove Trapfinding and replace it with a +1/2 bonus for Bluff and another skill.
- Also, you could consider for 5th level: the Silent Spell feat kicks in, your spellcasting is soundless, and gives you an additional +2 bonus. So the DC becomes : DC 13 + BLUFF-ranks + INT --> see 7
- Also, you could consider for 10th level: the Still Spell feat kicks in, your spellcasting is without somatics, and gives you an additional +2 bonus. So the DC becomes : DC 17 + BLUFF-ranks +INT --> see 8
3. But opponents get a bonus with certain spells/spell-like abilities (spell level +2)
- Detect Magic (0): +2 bonus
- Detect Thought (2nd): +4 bonus (no, not ‘see invisibility’)
- Arcane Sight (3rd): +5 bonus
- Discern Lies (Cl 4th): +6 bonus
- True Seeing (S/W 6th and Cl 5th): +8 bonus (Evil Outsiders? Ouch!)
- Greater Arcane Sight (S/w 7th): +9 bonus
4. Also opponents observing you with effort get at bonus with spending a move action (+2), standard action (+4, the next round) or full-round action (+8, the next round). Observing Beguilers get an additional +4 bonus.
5. The Cloaked Casting ability increases in power:
- Level 2: DC +1
- Level 8: DC +2 and +2 vs SR
- Level 14: DC +3 and +3 vs SR
- Level 20: DC +4 and overcomes SR automatically
6. If an opponent fails its check, your casting also does not provoke attacks of opportunity, an opponent can’t use readied actions that depend on realizing that you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability, or readied actions such as counterspelling that require identifying the spell you’re casting.
7. At 5th level you gain the ‘Silent Spell’ feat, that works for all spellcasting (original PHB2 Beguiler). In your adaption, when applied in Cloaked Casting though, you gain an additional benefit: there’s no +1 spell-level increase. In other words, you will always cast spells without sound in Cloaked Casting, which cóuld be reflected in an additional +2 bonus
8. At 10th level you gain the ‘Still Spell’ feat, that works for all spellcasting (original PHB2 Beguiler). In your adaption, when applied in Cloaked Casting though, you gain an additional benefit: there’s no +1 spell-level. In other words, you will always cast spells without somatics in Cloaked Casting, which cóuld be reflected in an additional +2 bonus
I regard this as reasonable adaptions:
- The chance of Cloaked Casting success increases slowly over your level-progression
- But the main effect is acceptably strong: your spell become more effective within reason (DC/SR) and you get the automatic (roleplay) benefit of casting without sound and (later) movement
- The secondary effect is that you receive no AoO’s (still up for debate, IMO) and opponent can’t ready specific actions.
- BUT: My personal condition for this would be, that your spell-list remains focused and short.
(Ofcourse, I didn’t take into account your recent addition of ‘aura of indiscretion’. This in combination with my above advice would be a bit too much, I suppose)
IMO, the result is a simpler mechanic that doesn’t ‘clog’ of slow the game down and puts Cloaked Casting really central in the Beguiler spellcasting. Does this help?