Nicholas the ex-Paladin's page

Just wanted to give you a huge thank you for this - coming into the adventure path as a 2nd Edition GM with no experience of the original (or the CRPG) its great to have a bit of context, particularly for the politics and culture of Brevoy, and what the whole Issia-Restov thing is about!

You're welcome. If you have suggestions or questions, just let me know

I skimmed the first few pages and saw that you included a picture from Rise of the Runelords as a location near the Stolen Lands. That’s like setting up a trap for unwary GMs. Unless a GM knows ALL the material Paizo has ever published, they will never be sure what arbitrary transplants like this you have made, and that might impact their world in the future when they come to run this material.

Very poor form.

Too bad my work didn't pass your scientific peer review.

Damn. That is a truly aweinspiring peace of work there. Kudos - I'm definitely going to be stealing some of that for my KM campaign. While I love playing around with nobles and politics, I've never put together something this detailed, on so many different houses - I tend to just make things up as I go along. This is definitely something I can use.

Thanks Canarr ! If you have certain parts that you like, feel like using it and have suggestions/questions: please let me know

I will make an update tot the document soon.

This document is really great, thanks for sharing, I skimmed through it and have really learned alot. I'm running the campaign in PF-1, but with the PF-2 kingmaker campaign.

Thank you. If you have any comments, tips or questions about the content, ... please let me know.

I'm really struggling with the Kingdom management. We usually only have 2-3 hrs a week to play and were playing online. The kingdom management has turned into note taking and a ton of rules and reading for me the GM (me). I'm basically frantically flipping through the Kingdom rules to follow what my players want to do.

My advice, take it with a grain of salt. We used it for 3-4 sessions and after that it remained on the background. We're all academics, but my players found it to be too tedious eventually.

I also rewrote it into a BP-only system, since I found out that reaching the Kingdom-DC's was eventually really easy. Getting BP's in a dosed way and building with care, is the main thing: it's a basis for roleplaying, ...and that's the point isn't it?

We also let go of the Mass Combat rules, even after I greatly simplified it.

Here's something that grinds my gears in general in regards to Slavic-inspired cultures: If you're already borrowing from the culture, the last names should, especially when they end in "-ski/-ska", "-sky/-ska", "-cki/-cka", "-cky/-cka", "-av/-ava" or "-ov/-ova", vary depending on the gender of the one carrying them. It's the same family name, just inflected for gender. So it should be King Noleski Surtov, while his sister still goes by Natala Surtova Same goes for some other family names; here would be examples I'd include:

Orlovsky - Orlovska
Kamiński (really, you're keeping the "ń"?) - Kamińska
Wustlav - Wustlava
Romanowsky - Romanowska
Kobliski - Kobliska
Kowalski - Kowalska
Miroslav - Miroslava
Volkov - Volkova
Darlovsky - Darlovska
Sekelsky - Sekelska
Zedkhov - Zedkhova
Kozlov - Kozlova

Of course, you can go full Czech and slap -ová for the feminine gender version of every family name, too. But that would be kinda silly.

Yes, I'm aware of that. And I've condidered it, but since we're western european players, that would be mainly confusing. Accepting the slavic culture and slavic athmosphere alone, is already a challenge.

Another funny detail: Are you aware that "Nemitz" means, literally, "The German" and "Horvat" means "The Croat"? Not that either is impossible, given that we already had an official Golarion-Earth crossover AP.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Sometimes I just thought it was funny. A different moments I just liked the sound of it. ;-)

I'm planning to run Kingmaker AP soon and would like to further develop the concept of the Aldori Swordlords as a political force in Brevoy.

On my game (and based on several ideas disseminated on the forums), in addition to rigorous training and a solemn oath - the Aldori Swordpact -, candidates for the Aldori Swordlords must abandon their family surname (and consequently any title or line of succession).

On one hand, this requirement makes the organization very attractive for any second son/daughter and/or low-born citizen seeking social ascension and prestige. Being an Aldori Swordlord would represent the perfect opportunity to rewrite your own story, untied from family bonds and obligations, and free from the weight - and sins - of your past surnames!

On the other hand, it creates another problem: how to resolve issues involving the assets and property owned by deceased Aldori Swordlords?

This is a very indepth question, that had not crossed my mind before. But overall, I think it would be very important for the Sworlords to remain an appealing employer or faction. For royalty, Loosing one's title's might be something that could be acceptable, but loosing an/any inheritance from your original family would be harsh.

On the other hand, if the Swordlords want to increase their numbers and therefore might and position in Brevoy, they need to be able to offer something to the new recruits: this could be fame and status, but also be an estate (or other immobilia) in the SL territory.

I just wonder, how would the SL's acquire such immobilia?: is it 'just' in their current domain? or would they be able to acquire some extra holdings through new recruits .... which then is 'recycled' for the one that are truly exceptional and need to be rewarded. I'm not sure tbh.

But overall, SL Ideals are nice and all, but that will only attract a small part of the able bodied warriors.

Giving some thought to it, I believe it would make the Free City of Restov a fruitful environment for barristers and devotees/clerics of Abbadar dedicated to providing legal services, most of them specializing in the resolution of real estate disputes and other complex problems.

In the same sense, wills would be extraordinarily common and appreciated legal instruments!

Yes, that's a nice idea. Makes sense. But I wouldn't overdue it, since it will make Restov much less glorious as it is described now.

In the absence of any will or equivalent document, would the estate of the late Aldori Swordlord pass to the organization (which could distribute his lands, titles, and other assets as it pleases, perhaps even opening disputes involving duels between the interested parties)?

See above. I think this might have its limitations.

What do you think of this (or how did you solve this problem in your campaigns)? I'd like to think about these sorts of things ahead of time because I'm planning to make Brevoy, the Aldori Swordlords, political machinations, and the impending civil war a significant part of my game, and that would help make the setting richer and the organization more believable.

I don't believe my players would go very deep into this. Eventually, when i involve the PC's into a SL-plot, I'll make up some reward: an estate, title, money or otherwise. To fully develop a 'system' behind it, would be too much for me.

I'm very happy with your compliments and hope you can use it for your campaigns.

You help me the most by asking question about the content or by making content-related remarks. Thanks !

The current 'table of contents' of the document is :

The Kingdom of Brevoy

(chapter 1 ) BREVOY at a glance 6
(chapter 2 ) The DUKES of Brevoy 10
House Surtova 10
House Medvyed 12
House Orlovsky 13
House Lodovka 14
House Garess 15
House Lebeda 16
House Rogarvia 18
The Barons of the main Houses 19
(chapter 3 ) The SWORDLORDS of Restov 20
(chapter 4 ) The city of RESTOV 25
(chapter 5 ) POLITICS in Brevoy 29
(chapter 6 ) RELIGIONS & politics 33

The Duchy of Rogarvia

(chapter 7 ) The Barons of ROGARVIA 40
Manilius 41
Reynic 42
Brunwald 42
Kamiński 43
Velaryon 43
Alyrion 44
Wustlav 44
Baltric 45
Krushenko 45
Romanowsky 46
Harte 47

Other important factions 47
Horáček Town 47
Monastery of the Four Broken Beasts 48
The Fanged Legion 49
(chapter 8 ) The city of NEW STETVEN 52
(chapter 9 ) POLITICS in Rogarvia 56

Royal House Rogarvia & its Iobarian origins

( 10 ) The wilds of IOBARIA : of Cyclops & Dragons 61
( 11 ) House ROGARVIA 65
Choral Rogarvia 65
The Rogarvian Kings 67
House Rogarvia & Dragons 68
The Fanged Legion 70
( 12 ) The VANISHING & Skywatch 73

The River Kingdoms

( 13 ) MIVON & its swordlords 78
Government 79
Mivon city 80
Mivonese Factions 82
The Mivonese Houses 84
( 14 ) PITAX 89
( 15 ) Other River States 91

The Players & The Stolen Lands

( 16 ) The STOLEN LANDS 97
( 17 ) The player’s Barony 103
( 18 ) INVESTORS in the PC Kingdom 107
Political investors 107
Economic investors 110
Religious investors 112
Non-investing factions 115
Servitors of the First World 116

The First World

( 19 ) The First World of the Fey 120
( 20 ) The Eldest 127
( 21 ) The Thane 134
( 22 ) On the Origin of Gnomes 137

APPENDICES

APPENDIX 1 : running of a mediaeval fantasy setting 139
( 1 ) THE USE OF SPIES 139
( 2 ) RULERSHIP IN TIME OF MAGIC 140
( 3 ) LAW ENFORCEMENT 143
( 4 ) BREVOY BAN ON CERTAIN MAGIC 146
( 5 ) DEGREE OF BREVOY POLITICS 147

APPENDIX 2 : KINGDOM BUILDING RULES 149
(1) ECONOMY INCOME 149
(2) EXPLORATION & TRAVEL 149
(3) ENLARGE DOMAIN 150
(4) DOMAIN DEVELOPMENT 150
(5) CREATE SETTLEMENT 151
(6) CONSTRUCT BUILDINGS 151
(7) TRADE ROUTES 156
(8) KINGDOM RELATIONS 158
(9) KINGDOM SIZE 159

APPENDIX 3 : MASS COMBAT WITH ARMIES 160
APPENDIX 4 : SERVANTS FOR THE COUNCIL 163
APPENDIX 5 : MAPS OF THE REGION 164

I love the document, lots of cool information in there, that i think will help my upcoming game. If you dont mind me asking, how did you make the cool frames for the character images for the houses, id love to implement that into my game

Short answer: I didn't make them. I found them through Google images.

Mentioning the source of every find defeats the purpose. I'm a Dutch productmanager with an active family life, working spouse and plenty of stuff on my hands, besides running a campaign as a DM .... and finding some time to make a campaign setting on the side. I have to make technology and other people's handiwork work for me ;-)

Last week I made a new version on the chapter concerning House Rogarvia (chapter 11). Not finished yet, but something new to read.

The background document is amazing and very well done! :)

I would like to download the document as a PDF file but it's not working. Is it a matter of permissions at the GoogleDocs end or do I have to do something at my end?

Hi Bellona, I had such problem before too. The only reason I can think of, is that the size of the doc is rather large, that PDF'ing it is difficult or prone to errors. Even a zipped file is 156MB large.

You might consider making a copy. After that, cut it in parts. And make PDF's from these parts.

Beautiful. This is great work. I’ve been scanning through, paying particular interest to areas I want to incorporate into my game. Learning a lot I didn’t know. Marveling at how much you have flushed out. Bravo! And thank you for sharing. Continuing to read and scan. Very much appreciate your efforts.

Hi lacker, thank you very much, but I also incorporated the ideas of others. I greatly enjoyed combining all the bits and pieces into one overall setting and hope I tell the total story in such a way that it gives players a solid basis for roleplaying.

So, if you have any questions, suggestions or see inconsistencies, please let me know.

Nicholas

We started playing the Kingmaker campaign over 2 years ago in PF-1. We have been adjusting the base adventures greatly and even have replaced them with other modules, some of which are home made. Also the Kingdom Building part we have modified greatly, so that it fits our gameplay style.

We were a bit disappointed about the Lore of the setting, so I started making a document myself to help players and new players.

It has become an enormous document of over 100 pages. It’s partly based on official Paizo material, partly self-made and partly of the many online ideas of other DM’s (like that of Redcelt). It has almost become a fully fledged campaign setting for my players… and is still undergoing modifications based on player-ideas. It's mainly based on PF-1 lore, so timelines might be a bit confusing for PF2 players. It's set around 10-20 years after The Vanishing.

Now, I want to share it with you. Possibly you can use it for your game. If you have questions or suggestions, I’d love to hear them.

The Setting Document

All the best! Nicholas

Hi all,

We started playing the Kingmaker campaign over 2 years ago in PF-1. We have been adjusting the base adventures greatly and even have replaced them with other modules, some of which are home made. Also the Kingdom Building part we have modified greatly, so that it fits our gameplay style.

We were a bit disappointed about the Lore of the setting, so I started making a document myself to help players and new players.

It has become an enormous document of over 100 pages. It’s partly based on official Paizo material, partly self-made and partly of the many online ideas of other DM’s (like that of Redcelt). It has almost become a fully fledged campaign setting for my players… and is still undergoing modifications based on player-ideas.

Now, I want to share it with you. Possibly you can use it for your game. If you have questions or suggestions, I’d love to hear them.

The Setting Document

All the best! Nicholas

The updated rules in Ultimate Campaign already do away with the "Magic Item Economy". In return, taxation is Economy roll divided by 3 instead of by 5.However (off the top of my head) that's the only change, so your other adjustments might not be necessary.

Although admittedly, I haven't compared building costs.

I kind of understood that, but the 'magical item Economy' from UC seems a bit lackluster and obsolete now.

I went a lot further in the adjustments to the Kingdom Building rules. See these Rule Adjustments for the current list (work in progess)

I'd love to get your feedback on this

The main ones being:
** No guaranteed investment: Your Kingdom will not receive an automatic 50 BP’s (Building Points). It’s rulers must attract BP’s through investors.
** Buildings: the prices of many buildings are drastically adjusted, since they were unbalanced. Also some buildings give special extras, like an NPC or a bonus.
** No Magical Items via buildings: Buildings do not generate magical items (RRR, p.58). Also the ‘Base Value’ of a city (RRR, p.58) is no longer relevant. PC’s can make magical items themselves, gain them through adventuring or buy/sell them on the regular way. This is done through roleplaying and the DM’s judgement.
** Trade Routes: The Kingdom can establish Trade Routes (via Edicts) with other settlements outside the Kingdom (source: Ultimate Campaign, p.232), which will result in a stronger Economy. This requires Roads on land or water
** Exploration Edicts: The Kingdom’s Rulers (PC’s) can make use of the Exploration Edict, meaning that they can hire scouts (and spend 3 BP per month) do exploration for them (source: Ultimate Campaign, p.230). See also the ‘Exploration’ and ‘Traveling’ rules below.
** Generate Income (tax): To generate an income, you make an Economy check against your Command DC at the end of your Income phase. If you’re successful, divide your result by 3 (not 5) and increase your Treasury’s BP by that amount.
** Loyalty: The Loyalty ability is given more relevance in Kingdom Building, since Economy and Stability are too dominant. This is done through the Ruler (mediate in alignment conflicts) and Councillor (rumours).
** Stable society: A kingdom's Economy, Stability, and Loyalty modifiers can never be further than 10 points apart from each other.
** Realistic society: A kingdom's Economy, Stability, and Loyalty modifiers can never be higher than the kingdom's Command DC – 4.

Hi all,

We’ve started with the Stolen Land module and will start with RRR soon. There’s one major change i want to impose and I would like your reflection on this:

I want to do away with the ‘magical item generation’ or availability through buildings altogether. It fits the nature of our campaigns (magical items are something special), but it’s mainly due to the economy-wrecking risks I want to avoid and the believe that it should become a bit more realistic. I therefore also want to improve the power of development (roads, trade routes, mines, etc) over just building building and gaining magical items all of a sudden

To compensate for this, I have the following measures in mind:

** buildings that (formerly) generated magical items are now 10% cheaper
** I change the taxation edict in such a way, that it allow for an ‘economy divisor’ of ¼, ⅓ or even ½ (at overwhelming tax). This means that when an Economy check is successful, you divide the BP’s gained by 4, 3 or 2 (not just 5, as is standard in RRR)
** I allow Trade Routes and trade routes are more effective: Trade Routes generate double the BP’s and the ‘Economy’ bonus when successfully established. Making +1 a +2, a +2 a +4, etc
**. The effects of Roads and special Resources are doubled: For every four road hexes your kingdom controls, the kingdom’s Economy increases by 2 (not 1). For every eight road hexes your kingdom controls, its Stability increases by 2. A Resource hex increases a kingdom’s Economy by 2.

Is this balanced? Do you have suggestions?

If you have any suggestions on how to go on a pure caster focus, I'd be all ears. It seems like the Arcane Hand order or Thuergic Brigand would be the way to go there, but I'm certain open to suggestions.

I really like the flavor and the social/RP strengths of the class, I'm just concerned about magical ability in combat, particularly with enemies that are immune to mind-effecting. I appreciate any advice or insight anyone would be willing to provide here.

Hi,

My reply might come too late, but it might help you or others anyway.

Let me first say, that I'm playing the 'Umbral Fae' archetype that is described above. It is an archetype that is focussed on spellcasting and mobility.

But also without this archetype, I think that the Beguiler is effective as a caster. Until now, I have experience in playing until 3rd level spells at 6th level: with spells like Color Spray as 1st, Glitterdust as 2nd and Haste/Slow as 3rd level spells you'll be an addition in most situations. Combined with a higher DC due to 'Cloaked Casting' it will land often enough. I have never felt that the Beguiler was lacking. But, it's obvious that a Sorceror or Wizard might be more versatile, when it comes to their spell-repertoire.

Out of combat the Beguiler really shines. That's probably an important reason why you picked him in the first place. The amount of spells/spellslots per days and 'Savvy Preparation', make him a improvisation guru.

ERTW did his homework. By all means, give it a try!

They covered a lot of this in official form in the Ultimate Intrigue book in 2016.

I don't share your enthusiasm about what's being 'clarified' in UI. It's still very general en vague. Given the fact that this thread is from early 2014, a perceptive developer might have take note and seen it's merits.

The basic guidelines of ZenFox42 are very helpful:

4 IMPORTANT conditions that cover a wide variety of common situations :

1) You are observing, and it’s acting correctly : no save
2) You are observing, and it’s not acting correctly : reason to 'observe carefully' and then save
3) You are interacting, and it’s acting correctly : save
4) You are interacting, and it’s not acting correctly : automatic disbelief"

Also his guidelines for a REASON to "careful study" are an addition I've been propagating within my groups. I've seen many an earlier session where metagaming was the sole reason for "careful observation", which could lead to tedious discussions.

In essence, observation and Interaction is the mayor reason why a (auto) save is given. careful study is something that comes up a lot less.

Also, check out this article about illusions for even more useful information. Technically for 3.5, but most of the info is still valid for PF1.

Click Here

It helps. I think that this is the (4 part) article from WotC Skip Willliams' or based on it. I've been reading this article too, some 10ish years ago. Unfortunately, It leaves a lot of gaps. I've been playing Illisionists since 2nd ed AD&D, but then and also in 3.5ed Illusions have not received the attention it deserved.

This is were there OP from ZenFox42 comes in. Any idea how to bring it to the attention to PF2 developers?

Hi Guys,

I intentionally resurrect this thread, because I think it has enormous value in clarifying the workings of illusions. My group has benefitted greatly for it. Thank you ZenFox!

I also hope the developers for Pathfinder 2 make use of it. It's about time that after more than 15 years of unwanted discussions and bickering, Illusions get a workable and solid position at the RPG table.

Any suggestions how we bring it to the attention to the developers?

I have made a new version of the 'Umbral Fae Beguiler'

See : Umbral Fae Beguiler v.0.3

@ERTW, Since I assume that you would like to make it an archetype in your "Beguilers of the Inner Seas" doc, I made it in a format that's more fitting for an Archtetype.

.

Umbral Fae Beguilers have the ancestry of the Dark Fey coursing through their veins. Their distant ancestor might be a Hag, Spriggan, Unseelie, Satyr or other fey from the darker reaches of the world of fey. These beguilers have an close affinity with the darker parts of the The First World of Fey, the Shadow Plane and the subplane where both mirror-planes touch. It’s a place where morality is whimsical and cynical and a place where sly creatures of darker Fey meet with elusive creatures of shadow.

Umbral Fae Beguilers specialize in increased mobility, trickery and manipulation of the mirror planes of The First World and Shadow Plane to support their spellcasting.

Hey everybody,

Sorry for vanishing off the face of the earth for the last few months, life's been busy. I guess the 5th anniversary of the conversion is an appropriate time to reappear, but sadly I don't have a trove of new goodies for you this year. I haven't really had time to work on any of the beguiler ideas I've been tossing around in my head lately.

Nicholas the ex-Paladin wrote:

Link to "Umbral Fae Beguiler" Google-doc

[... ...] That said, I'm more than happy to have you post the document and updates here for public consumption and comments.

.

The link above is still valid. Please copy or adjust the document as you see fit. If I can help, please let me know in a post or private message

Hey everybody,

Nicholas the ex-Paladin wrote:

I've given the Umbral Fae Beguiler some playtime and I really enjoyed it a lot. I would like it to be accessible and playable for others too. I'd gladly share the fun. Would you be interested to adopt the Umbral Fae Beguiler in your conversion/Handbook?

Nicholas the ex-Paladin wrote:

To translate my earlier words to deeds, I've added the link to the Umbral Fae Beguiler.

Link to "Umbral Fae Beguiler" Google-doc

I might consider adapting it for the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document, but I'd need to take a fair amount of time to figure out how best to incorporate it into that world. That said, I'm more than happy to have you post the document and updates here for public consumption and comments.

That would be an honour and you would make my day. I think that my 'Umbral Fae Beguiler' is a decent piece of work and I had loads of fun with it.

Even though we don't play in the Inner Sea and i'm not familiar with the setting, I've done my homework (read the Inner Sea World Guide) and I have some suggestions.

The Umbral Fae Beguiler might feel at home in:

- Andoran: the Arthfell Forest would be fitting with the strong presence of Druids and were creatures. Also with cities nearby, in which a Beguiler could be at home.
- Brevoy: same counts for the Gronzi Forest. But with the woodcutters from West Stretven ever getting deeper in the forest, there might be a nice campaignhook why a Beguiler is leaving the forest to get an idea of the urban threaths.
- Cheliax: Barrowwood would make a nice setting were Fey creatures and fell Druidcircles are in direct contact with creatures from hell. It might take some conceptual tweaking given the fact that the Umbral Fae beguiler is linked wit the Shadow plane, but its possible
- Druma: The Fey courts from the Palakar Forest and their direct dealings with the town of Macridi would give an almost ideal starting point for the Umbral Fae Beguiler
- Galt: the history and culture of arts and roguish romantisism would appeal to many Beguilers in general. Since the country is in turmoil for decades, there's plenty of room for creatures of the Hymbrian Forest to thrive
- Geb: This land filled with undead would be an unlikely place for many Fey creatures, but the twisted Axan Wood could be a haven for shadowy creatures and the more sinister Umbral Fae Beguilers that specialise in the power of the Plane of Shadow.
- Irrissen: Irrisen in itself is a land with nordic fey origin. Umbral Fae Beguilers who don't mind the cold (or use their cold mitigating powers) would feel at home
- Isger: The Chitterwood might be home to goblinoid Beguilers. Also see Cheliax
- Kyonin: The elven lands of Kyonin would be an almost perfect setting for Umbral Fae Beguilers and elven and gnome beguilers foremost. The link with The First World of Fey is obvious, so Beguilers focussing on powers of the First World would be most fitting.
- Lands of the Linnorn Kings: because of the many rifts between Golarion and The First World, there is an abundance of Fey creatures. See also Irrisen
- Nidal: The beguiler might be a descendant of a cult of fled shadow-wielding arcanist form the city of Pangolais, now taking his refuse in the Uskwood
- Nirmathas: the deeper reaches of the Fangwood gives home to many darker Fey creatures, with which the Umbral Fae Beguiler feels at home with. The city of Tamran gives the beguiler an ample amount of urban distraction, if she so desires.
- River Kingdoms: the relative open-ended freedom in the River Kingdoms might appeal to the beguilers that want to care out a territory for themselves, using their influencing powers and connection to the natural world.
- Taldor: Beguiler from the Verduran Forest will find plenty of work at the Brotherhood of Silence in the city of Oppara.
- Ustalav: the darker kinds of Beguilers will find the fractious nation of Ustalav a fertile land of intrigue and self advancement. They might even be a follower of the Devil in Grey, a creature haunting Lozeri.
- Varisia: the frontier region of Varisia will attract the more adventurous beguilers with affinity to the less darker Fey.

Happy New Year! May your year be full of trickery, mischief ... and happiness.

To translate my earlier words to deeds, I've added the link to the Umbral Fae Beguiler.

Link to "Umbral Fae Beguiler" Google-doc

It's an addition to ERTW's version that has already given me a lot of RP-fun. Feel free to use it or make comments.

Hi ERTW,

I didn't check on my Paizo account recently, so now I see that you've send me feedback on my Umbral Fae Beguiler (already) 3 months ago. Too bad I didn't see it earlier.
But, Thanks for the compliments! I certainly will consider all your suggestions and have already drafted a new version based on your feedback

Also, I've given the Umbral Fae Beguiler some playtime and I really enjoyed it a lot. I would like it to be accessible and playable for others too. I'd gladly share the fun. Would you be interested to adopt the Umbral Fae Beguiler in your conversion/Handbook?

Ofcourse I realise that this means that you might want to adapt it to your tastes. That's really okay. I could also draft new versions and discuss it with you, untill you'd consider it fitting.

Best regards, Nicholas

Also Nicholas, I'm sorry I haven't been able to look over what you sent me yet since my daughter has been sick with an ear infection all week.

Hi ERTW, I hope your daughter is doing well again.

Did you have the chance of looking at my proposal for the Beguiler Order I sent you a few weeks ago? It could even be an Archetype. Some feedback for my own use would be nice. I have put some genuine work in this 'Dark Fae Beguiler', so I think it's worth your time. It might even have elements that could be of value to your beguiler-conversion.

Thanks!

Hi ERTW,

I've sent you a word-link to a draft of the Order of the Umbral Fey

Nicholas

Hi ERTW,

I've already put some rough ideas on paper. I guess it turned out to be a mostly new 'Umbral Fey' Order altogether. I hope it fits the mold somehow. Please let me know how you would like me to share this.

Hi ERTW,

I like the the 'Order of the Balefull Shadow' a lot. It reminds me of a 'Shadow Fey' or 'Shadow Gnome' that was a character in a campaign long past.

If you're open to it, I am willing to rewrite this Order somewhat into an alternative adaption that is less focussed on melee and more on schadow-based mobility and trickery. It's up t you what you do with it, but at least some feedback would be nice.

If that's okay with you, could you send me a Word-version of that particular text? I'm a novice in the workings of this forum, so I'm not sure how this is done.

okay, more things are clear to me. Thank you.

Nicholas to answer some of your questions:

Silent Spell and Still Spell still require the higher spell slot, they just don't suffer the increased casting time that any spontaneous caster suffers when applying metamagic. This is purposeful, it prevents exactly what you're talking about (applying Silent and Still to every spell cast).

This is clear now

Conceal Spell gives no provisions for ignoring the Bluff/Disguise check even if silenced. Only the Sleight of Hand check can be ignored for spells without somatic components (usually done through either Still Spell or with the Sleight of Blade feat).

If you could put this explanation of Still Spell at 10th, that would really help and avoid unnecessary discussions.

What about 'Silent Spell' in combo with and Invisible/Stealth Beguiler?

Also, Hidden Signs is in fact mostly an adaptation of the Conceal Spell feat. I think it really helps when you add this together in one clear explanation of Hidden Signs. Again, this help to avoid unnecessary discussions

Cloaked casting is an ability that innately comes with a cost, even though there are numerous avenues to activate it. Be it action economy (feinting), skill investment (hidden signs), feat investment (initiative), customization options (subtle casting), or spells (invisibility)..

That was clear to me and is how it should be.

Might my earlier remarks be swamped in my overlong post, let me rephrase some of it:

- cloggy mechanics of Hidden Signs: The Conceal Spell feat requires two rolls for every opponent that you try to affect with Cloaked Casting. I still think this will be cloggy and might ruin the fun of Cloaked Casting. I suggested you make it into one (possibly harder) roll. Could you consider this?

- auto-nerfing of Cloaked Casting and Subtle Casting by the 0-level cantrip Detect Magic: This will ruin an important ability of the Beguiler at te hands of a unwilling DM. I think that a decent bonus is more then enough and I suggested some more spells that might be applicable. A Beguiler who lets himself be seriously hampered by a simple Cantrip, isn't a master of deceit and subtlety IMO.

Okay, maybe my overlong post wasn’t very clear. I think I wanted to show that the mechanic behind ‘Hidden Signs’ (Conceal Spell) could become more streamlined. But I also realized that some parts of ‘Cloaked Casting’ in relation to ‘Silent Spell’ and ‘Still Spell’ aren’t clear to me.

First I think there’s a small error in the current description of Silent Spell and Still Spell in the Conversion. In the CRB it says that A ‘stilled’ or ‘Silent’ spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level. In the conversion it says the Beguiler doesn’t suffer increased casting time, but I assume you mean that the Beguiler doesn’t suffer the increase in casting level for his spells. Is this correct?

As I said in my long post, this means that the Beguiler will always use Silent Spell (from 5th level) and Still Spell (from 10th level) when casting spells with Cloaked Casting. Why shouldn’t he.

This opens up some questions, which I hope you could answer. I hope you agree with me that Stealth/Invisibility and ‘Hidden Signs’ are the main conditions by which the Beguiler will use Cloaked Casting. It is unclear to me what Silent Spell and Still Spell will have in these situations, namely
- Silent Spell (5th): When you always will use Silent Spell, what would this mean for your checks for Hidden Signs?: the Beguiler no longer uses verbal/sound, so that would probably mean that the Bluff-roll could disappear and only the SoH-check remains;
- But, when you always will use Silent Spell, what would this mean for your checks when casting in Stealth/Invisible?: the Beguiler no longer uses verbal/sound while not visible, so that would probably mean that doesn’t need to make a (Stealth) check at all….making the Cloaked Casting and automatic success. Isn’t that too powerful, already at 5th?
- Still Spell (10th): When you always will use Silent Spell and Still Spell (from 5th), what would this mean for your checks for Hidden Signs?: the Beguiler no longer uses verbal/sound ánd somatics/ movement, so that would probably mean that doesn’t need to make a check at all from 10th. ….making the Cloaked Casting and automatic success when Invisible and using Hidden Signs. Isn’t that too powerfull?

So, that’s why I suggested in my previous (overlong) post to set this clear into rules to avoid discussions, primarily about balance. I earlier suggested an additional bonus (in stead of automatic successes) when Silent Spell and Still Spell were available at 5th and 10th.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, since nobody commented on this before. But Could you please clarify what’s your view on this?

I've been reading over Nicholas' comments in the thread and they've been quite interesting and thought provoking. From where I sit it seems like what you want from the class doesn't quite dovetail with what Ertw has been trying to do with it over these years. You want a laser focused spellcaster, while Ertw has been building something more in line with pathfinder's updated meta of more expansive options and focuses for their classes. In the end it may well be that this might not be the conversion for you, or that limiting yourself to just the Arcane Hand is what is necessary to get it to work for you.

Hi PS, it might be that our group has gradually formed a liking to a more simpler setup. But I really don't have any objections to all the Order variants. Actually, I like most of the Orders I read and that's why I'm committed to making them better: in terms of playability and balance. Something for another post. The Arcane Hand it really just one of them.

My only two conceptual difficulties lie with introducing necromancy with the Beguiler (a big no in my campaign) and maybe I'm not enthusiastic about melee-variants for Beguilers. But if people want to play them: be my guest.

My main concern is balance.

Just as a sidenote, I'm pretty active on the pathfinder subreddit and the pathfinder general thread on 4chan and this conversion is very popular among both groups. I've rarely seen any mention of it being turned away from games for any reason beyond a blanket ban on non-Paizo materials.

Different folks, different strokes. I just wanted to share my experience with you: the orders could tip the balance. A good base-Beguiler, as it stand now, doesn't need an Order from a impact perspective.

Alright, so after thinking over some of Nicholas' comments I've put together a new provisional update to get feedback. I'm curious to hear from all about how these changes look. Are they too much, too little, or just right?

Changes:

Hide in plain sight now comes online at level 9.

Swift feint now comes online at level 11.

Cloaked casting now grants +1 bonus to save DCs at level 2, increasing by 1 every 6 levels thereafter. At level 8 rolls to overcome SR gain the same bonus. At level 19 SR is automatically overcome.

New ability phantom bulwark allows 3/day negation of crits or sneak attack, gained at level 15.

New ability aura of indiscretion causes those within 30 ft. to suffer a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks against you and -2 on Will saves against your abilities, gained at level 17.[/list]

One nice thing about this arrangement is that it fills in the class features table well, leaving gaps only at 12, 16, and 18 (where you're still getting new spells and order spells). As always, I'm excited to hear what people think of the changes and where they think things could be further improved.

Hi ERTW,

I agree with Penumbral Shadow, that we need to be careful with stacking too many bonuses or penalties. It's not clear to me why Aura of indiscretion offers penalties within 30ft.
But as I just introduced some bonuses and penalties myself, I'm not that worried that in the end it might be too much. It seems all pretty balanced to me, under the condition that the Spell-list that the Beguiler uses is short and focussed. The Beguiler is nowhere as flexible and powerfull as the Sorceror, so higher DC's are okay in my book. But, the current list of Beguiler spells is a bit long IMO.

About phantom bulwark: it's an ability that is nearing the effects of Improved uncanny dodge or Blurr. I'm not very keen on abilities that have x/day use. Maybe you could consider a more thematic and (semi) permanent Blurr?

I would d like to give some more analysis on three important abilities for the Beguiler:
1. ‘SUPRISE CASTING’
2. ‘HIDDEN SIGNS’, which makes use of the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat
3. Both feed into the ‘CLOAKED CASTING’ ability, which gives bonuses.

In effect, surprise casting and hidden signs offer conditions for the use of Cloaked Casting. These three abilities form an important basis and uniqueness or the spellcasting of the Beguiler. I playtested the mechanic with my fellow players in a mini-session through some scenario’s and we had the feeling that it could be streamlined. This was before you advanced HiPS.

I’ll analyze all 3 abilities below and will come to a practical proposition. This I mainly do with my role as a DM in mind.

1. SUPRISE CASTING
When you use the BLUFF-skill successfully, you can make an attack denying DEX (i.e. the Feint maneuver) and use it as a condition for spellcasting (i.e. Cloaked Casting). That’s it.

2. HIDDEN SIGNS
This ability gives:
- The ability to use the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat, without an increase of casting time
- The ability to use the INT-modifier instead of the DEX and CHA-modifier when using this feat
- The next line is confusing to me: “Furthermore, when she casts a beguiler spell without components, …, observers will not notice that a spell has been cast.” Isn’t that simply the effect of the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat?
- BUT, his ability is blocked by an observer using Detect Magic or ‘similar effects’, which is a bit vague. This in my opinion needs some adjustment, since a 0-level cantrip will ruin this (IMO) central ability automatically.
- Also: this ability is blocked by another Beguiler, which luckily is rather circumstantial, but also a bit too much IMO.

So, Hidden Signs is in the basis the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat, with some adjustments.

Do you agree?

The ‘Conceal Spell’ feat
SRD Text: ” When you cast a spell or use a spell-like ability, you can attempt to conceal verbal and somatic components among other speech and gestures, and to conceal the manifestation of casting the spell, so others don’t realize you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability…”

IIUC, This works as follows:
- Skill-check: your ‘BLUFF/DISGUISE’ based DC versus opponents ‘PECEPTION/SENSE/SPELLCRAFT’: In my experience this will most likely be your BLUFF versus their PERCEPTION (melee and monsters) or SPELLCRAFT (spellcasters)
- With a Beguiler the DC is 15 + BLUFF-ranks + INT versus d20 + PERC/SPELLC
- But an opponent gets a bonus equal to the level of the spell (whoops!)
- so on average you succeed on around 50% of the time: lower spells are easier (70%), but higher ones are harder (40%) to Cloak

BUT: When a spell has a somatic component (which is at least 80% of your spells) ánd a creature can see you, then they get an additional check and chance of ruining your deception:
- Skill-check: your ‘SLEIGTH OF HAND’ based DC versus opponents ‘PECEPTION/SPELLCRAFT’
- With a Beguiler the DC is 15 + SoH-ranks + INT versus d20 + PERC/SPELLC + level of your spell
- But again, an opponent gets a bonus equal to the level of the spell
- so on average, you succeed on around 50% of the time (provided that you maximize your ranks in SoH)

So if I understand this correctly, when a spell has a somatic component, you statistically have around 25% chance (0,50*0,50) pér opponent that you can Conceal a spell. Which is not very good, but at least you’re not losing anything actions.
Additionally, you get a more diverse set of results, the larger the group is: some fail and some succeed.

Also, ‘Conceal Spell’ also has other benefits:
- if successful, you don’t provoke AoO’s: which I regard as up for debate. You generally provoke AoO’s, because you perform a distracting act and divert your attention from the battle. While using Cloaked Casting (Conceal Spell), it can argued that you pay even more attention to the details of spellcasting.
- if successful, your opponent cannot ‘ready their actions’ on you casting a spell: this makes sense.

Important remark: as with Stealth, this might:
- require a lot (!!) of skill-checks of all opponents involved. From experience I know this will clog-down the gameplay and won’t make you a popular player. If others start to see that your rounds take a lot of time ánd are only successful in less than half the tries, they will become annoyed pretty quickly.
- Also, it might mean discussions on what opponent is able to see you (2 Conceal Spell checks) or isn’t able to see you (1 Conceal Spell check). For example, as result of several Steath/HiPS checks, prior.

Do you agree?

3. CLOAKED SPELLCASTING
Cloaked Casting gives a bonus to the spell’s DC and overcoming SR. In practice this is roughly done through 4 conditions:
1. Denying DEX through a ‘Feint’ action in close range
2. Denying DEX while being ‘Invisible’ or using ‘Stealth’ successfully
3. An opponent that is denied DEX because he’s ‘Blinded’.
4. Using ‘Hidden Signs’, not needing cover/concealment, which basically is the ‘Conceal Spell’ feat.

(I haven’t taken your recent advance of HiPS into account, which ofcourse is condition #2)

You already know my doubts about casting in melee-range. I regard the (improved/swift) Feint maneuver an unwise action for a squishy Beguiler. Using Feint in combat is something that will sometimes be used on the first few levels, but in the end will prove itself to be too risky. Also, as soon as you are able to HiPS or become Improved Invisible, Feint becomes practically obsolete.

Personally, as a Beguiler I would only use:
- Invisibility: ofcourse Invisibility will give you only a 1-shot chance, since it will dissipate afterwards.
- Improved Invisibility: Improved Invisibility is superior and will become very important (unfortunately it isn’t allowed in some groups, like ours)
- Once in a while, make use of a ‘Blinded’ opponent: this will not happen often
- More likely I would try to use ‘Stealth’ and try use long-range spells that have no clear place of origin, making it easier to use Stealth again: but likely, this also will also only work once or twice. With HiPS, this will change greatly.
- Use ‘Hidden Signs/Conceal Spell’ while not being invisible or hiding: it is likely that you try this very often, since its application is flexible.

This means, in my estimation, that:
- ‘Hidden Signs/Conceal Spell’ is a very important ability that will see much use (especially before HiPS kicks in) and will be valuable your whole career.
- Also, In my estimation this a ‘cloggy’ system that has a mediocre chance of success.

Do you agree?

MY CONCLUSION

My main conclusion is, that even though I’m very happy about your adaptation with ‘Hidden Signs’/ConcealSpell, in practice it could be a fairly unpleasant experience.

Also my conclusions is that ‘Hidden Signs’ is a véry important ability for the practical functioning of Cloaked Casting, will be valuable until high levels and in the basis is an adaptation of ‘Conceal Spell’. It’s a mechanic that sets one of the most important conditions (maybe thé most important condition) for using Cloaked Casting.

Roughly speaking: Hidden Signs = Conceal Spell = (besides HiPS) the most important condition and underlying mechanic for Cloaked Casting.

Also, ‘Still Spell’ and ‘Silent Spell’ are linked to Cloaked Casting in your version, making the CC-ability even more important. I think it would be very wise if you process (part of) this mechanic directly in the (skill-checks) workings of Conceal Spell/Hidden Signs. You would make all players very happy and their group too. I’ll give some suggestions below.

MY ADVICE
I would really like the mechanic behind Cloaked Casting to become much simpler and straightforward.

In the end, what I think that we want for a Beguiler is:
- Him (in concept) to be a ‘roguish spellcaster’ and therefore a caster that is (in practice) encouraged to be sneaky as much as possible
- He will become better at this as he levels up: by rising skill-ranks in BLUFF, but also the processing of his peculiar magical- talent (e.g. Silent Spell and Still spell) into his roguish spellcasting
- Him to be a ‘normal’ spellcaster, without the bonuses, when he fails in his sneakiness

To be exact, I would like you advise you to do the following:
1. Combine ‘Cloaked Casting ‘and (the adjusted mechanics of) ‘Conceal Spellcasting’(Hidden Signs) in one central Beguiler ability simply named ‘Cloaked Casting’(at 2nd level). The adapted mechanics of the Conceal Spell feat are behind this ability and presented below. Hidden Sign will effectively be removed as an ability

2. This mechanic lets all opponents make only one check
- 2nd level: one simple skill-check of DC 10 + BLUFF-ranks + INT with a PERCEPTION or SPELLCRAFT check (around 50% chance): so 15 becomes 10, the second SoH-check disappears, no dependence on spell-level
- Every even level (4th, 6th, 8th etc) you recieve a +1 bonus . This could also be reflected in my earlier advice, to remove Trapfinding and replace it with a +1/2 bonus for Bluff and another skill.
- Also, you could consider for 5th level: the Silent Spell feat kicks in, your spellcasting is soundless, and gives you an additional +2 bonus. So the DC becomes : DC 13 + BLUFF-ranks + INT --> see 7
- Also, you could consider for 10th level: the Still Spell feat kicks in, your spellcasting is without somatics, and gives you an additional +2 bonus. So the DC becomes : DC 17 + BLUFF-ranks +INT --> see 8

3. But opponents get a bonus with certain spells/spell-like abilities (spell level +2)
- Detect Magic (0): +2 bonus
- Detect Thought (2nd): +4 bonus (no, not ‘see invisibility’)
- Arcane Sight (3rd): +5 bonus
- Discern Lies (Cl 4th): +6 bonus
- True Seeing (S/W 6th and Cl 5th): +8 bonus (Evil Outsiders? Ouch!)
- Greater Arcane Sight (S/w 7th): +9 bonus

4. Also opponents observing you with effort get at bonus with spending a move action (+2), standard action (+4, the next round) or full-round action (+8, the next round). Observing Beguilers get an additional +4 bonus.

5. The Cloaked Casting ability increases in power:
- Level 2: DC +1
- Level 8: DC +2 and +2 vs SR
- Level 14: DC +3 and +3 vs SR
- Level 20: DC +4 and overcomes SR automatically

6. If an opponent fails its check, your casting also does not provoke attacks of opportunity, an opponent can’t use readied actions that depend on realizing that you’re casting a spell or using a spell-like ability, or readied actions such as counterspelling that require identifying the spell you’re casting.

7. At 5th level you gain the ‘Silent Spell’ feat, that works for all spellcasting (original PHB2 Beguiler). In your adaption, when applied in Cloaked Casting though, you gain an additional benefit: there’s no +1 spell-level increase. In other words, you will always cast spells without sound in Cloaked Casting, which cóuld be reflected in an additional +2 bonus

8. At 10th level you gain the ‘Still Spell’ feat, that works for all spellcasting (original PHB2 Beguiler). In your adaption, when applied in Cloaked Casting though, you gain an additional benefit: there’s no +1 spell-level. In other words, you will always cast spells without somatics in Cloaked Casting, which cóuld be reflected in an additional +2 bonus

I regard this as reasonable adaptions:
- The chance of Cloaked Casting success increases slowly over your level-progression
- But the main effect is acceptably strong: your spell become more effective within reason (DC/SR) and you get the automatic (roleplay) benefit of casting without sound and (later) movement
- The secondary effect is that you receive no AoO’s (still up for debate, IMO) and opponent can’t ready specific actions.
- BUT: My personal condition for this would be, that your spell-list remains focused and short.

(Ofcourse, I didn’t take into account your recent addition of ‘aura of indiscretion’. This in combination with my above advice would be a bit too much, I suppose)

IMO, the result is a simpler mechanic that doesn’t ‘clog’ of slow the game down and puts Cloaked Casting really central in the Beguiler spellcasting. Does this help?

I'm busy to make a full analysis and advice on the central abilities of Cloaked Casting, Hidden Signs and the underlying Conceal Spell feat. These I regard as core. It's because I think that mechanically how it stand now, its not playable enough. I've seen many positive comments on this, but I just don't agree.

This analysis and advice takes time, because I want to do this right.

But before I send this, I wat to make a remark on the central concept of the Beguiler underlying the original and your conversion. What are core ingredient to the Beguiler concept and what isn't?

In order to answer this question I've taken my own experience and looked through the discussion that took place here the past 4 years.

Generally, Yes (some keywords):
- illusion and enchantment (and a smattering of divination or buffing)
- specialist, focussed spell-list,
- stealth, dodging, indirect, unseen, elusive, subterfuge
- rogue, free spririt, nomadic
- shadows, shadow plane
- coercien, manipulation, deceit
- urban
- creativity, spontaneous
- dream
- fey, CN, bloodline

Generally No (some keywords):
- necromancy, undead,
- polymorph
- enervation, curse

Neutral / Under discussion (some keywords):
- melee (although I've seen some comments from ERTW, that it doen't fit his idea of a beguiler
- orders/guilds, apostasies or loose individuals
- natural ally, summoning
- assasination

This might be a little late after 4 years, but I hope this helps somewhat on a conceptual level.

Nicholas the ex-Paladin wrote:

Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.

But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.

Or am I missing something?

The orders don't trade out powers because they're not archetypes or variants, they're character options. Think of them like a sorcerer's bloodline. In my game I've found the orders a vital part of bringing the beguiler into the fold of pathfinder's internal balance where sorcerers have their bloodlines and wizards have their school powers.

Maybe I didn't use the right terminologie, but what I meant to say is that I don't want this promising Beguiler-conversion (!!) to go bust because of extra rules that aren't as thought out as the base-class (sorry). What I as a DM (and my fellow DM's/players) always look out for when presented with new options for players/PC is :

If either one is compromised, it will not be allowed or needs to be reworked. Once in a while you take the risk and try, but with 25 years of experience (x6) we're able to prevent a lot of problems before they happen.

1) Balance
Not all Orders are balanced or the total of extras on tóp of the Base Beguiler-class isn't. That's a shame, since the Base class in itself is. The base class might need some rework to make it better playable (I'll get back on that very extensively in a separate post), but at least it's balanced. The Orders add extra powers, that threatens that balance ... and therefore the viability of the base class. That would really be a shame.

To make these Orders a must, I think is a mistake: at least, *as it stands nów*. Make it an option, make them or the base-class weaker or make them extra's that have serious trade-offs. Presenting them as must-take Sorceror-Bloodlines isn't needed for the impact of the Beguiler base. It's strong enough as it is now, especially with the LONG spell-list.

In my experience Players (like myself) get carried away in their enthusiasm (like myself) and present all the (very good) ideas, but in the end forget that they don't play in a vacuum. I've also made that mistake myself manyfold (mea culpa) and it has threatened a new character, new idea and sometimes even the cohesion of a group of players (some people left).

2) Playability
The Orders are relatively playable, although some need some rework or clarification in my opinion. Its not done, sorry. I already commented on almost all Orders. The mechanics don't aways work IMO.

Although I admire ERTW' work, he's also succeptible to a problem that creative and enthusiastic people usually have: they start a new idea, but forget to finish it. Again, I myself have made that mistake manyfold (!). When you create an Order, you really need to work it out, .....an that takes time and hard work, which we don't have unlimited next to work and a personal life.

Better to leave things out, than fill your great conversion with a pletora of even more new ideas. Better to choose.

3) Quality
I basically already said it all, but maybe a little more.

On the conceptual side, some Orders are of good Quality. I strongly disagree with Orders that embrace 'necromancy' since I think they have nóthing to do with a Beguiler (Shadow/Shadow-plane as far as I'm willing to go). On a more mellow side, I don't see a Beguiler as a melee character. But besides that, I really like most ideas.

But in order to give it real quality, a concept or idea needs to be fleshed out mechanically to become operational. I think some need some extra attention.

Please, don't get me wrong or be upset about my opinion. I really want this conversion to work, so I choose to be a bit blunt.

Petrified Mind
I like this concept and Order. I think it fits nicely with the Beguiler concept. It revolves around the 'intimidate' skill, with which i don't have much experience. But being a 'skill' I think that it will be mostly effective versus lower level characters and monsters. Besides that, it takes time, making it a mostly out-of-combat ability.

Why not give the illusion a magical 'fear' effect' on mid/higher levels?

- Daunting Illusions (1st): nice ability, although not very powerfull. I understand that this work for ALL illusions, form silent image to major image and all the shadow-spells. I think the skill check should be a little easier, with 3rd level 'major image' being the startingpoint: +0. Every level under gives -2 and every level over 3rd level gives a +2.
- I also think that a specialist focussing on 'intimidating illusions' is very capable of making them believable form up close. So I would find a +2 DC for disbelieving them reasonable.
- Creaping Fear (7th): Nice, but it takes time. At this level you're better of using magical Fear: it's a lot quicker and usually more successful.
- 12 th level: give it a name, like 'Creeping Terror'. Again, relying on a skill at 12th level is not very effective. .... BUT see my comment at 13th level

- Petrifying Aura (13th): finally, this is more effective. But this should be available at a lower level. Also since the 'shaken condition' is not a big thing: -2 penalty. I suggest you replace 'Creaping Fear' at 7th leve with "Petrifying Aura".
- Also, making it a spell of 2 level highers is absurd for such a minor effect, that álso requires a save. (Also, being 'shaken' is hardly being 'petrified' ;-P)
- 11th level: I suggest, you add another ability that does justice to this Order. It should be a 'Petrifying Aura' but with a Fear -effect (frightened), like with Cause Fear spell. I would say that this only works for Illusion spells from 3rd level (Major Image) and up. You might consider a +1 spell level and a range of 30ft
- 15th level: again, but now with a 'panicked' condition as per Fear spell. I would say that this only works for Illusion spells from 3rd level (Major Image) and up. You might consider a +3 spell level and a range of 30ft as the spell

Again, I don't know most of the extra spells.

Overall, I think it's a nice concept that needs a boost in power and practical application (also in combat).

I suggest you balance this Order by taking something away form the base Beguiler class. My suggestion would be 2 or 3 of the following:
- all the 3 'feint' abilities: fear, no melee
- Trapfinding: he's used to doing things through his illusions
- Savvy Preparation: focus brings less flexibility

My two cents for the 4th Order:

Ghastly Claw
This represents the 'necromatic' and 'assassination' aspects of the Beguiler.... what strikes me as a bit odd. Illusion and Enchantment don't go well with Necromancy. Deception might work with assassination, but in the end it's a much more subtle and intelligent force. I have my(conceptual) doubts with this Order. You also already know how I feel about melee-combat and Beguilers.

My feedback on the abilities:
- spells: again I don' know some of these spells. But I don't find it fitting that a Beguiler focussed on melee gets *extra* spells. I would take them away
- paralyzing strike (1st): this fits an assassin, but It's a significant increase in power.
- death blow (7th): this fits an assassin, but It's a pretty circumstantial ability.
- 12th level: this is an extra ability, so a name is justified. It breathes 'assassin' again
- malicious maneuver (13, 17th): it's a nice list, but the weakness is that (if I understand correctly) for every maneuver you need to make at least 2 'malicious maneuvers'. I count 1 for trip, 1 for bullrush, 1 for dirty trick, 1 for grapple, 1 for reposition, 1 for disarm/steal.

I'm not keen on this Order, but I think that when allowed you should take away the following Beguiler powers:
- Savvy Preparation: more melee, less spellcaster
- Muddling Aegis: more melee, less roguish spellcaster
- Still Spell: more melee, less roguish spellcaster (Silent spell is stil fitting the concept)

And now some feedback on the 3rd Order.

Counterfit Blood
I think the basic idea of this Order is very fitting for the Beguiler and completely in line with its concept. It really adds something to a conceptual aspect of the Beguiler. My compliments for this idea and its elaboration.

What is the maximum of Alterego's that a Beguiler can attain? I would say 1/level or even 1/2 levels (levels 1, 3, 5 etc), depending on their strength. DM discrestion.

- Alter Ego: very nice. I assume this is a non-magical disguise. But what are the limitations to this alter-ego? Is this strictly a DM decision?
- 3rd level: this seems a mix of extra abilities, so it's a bit confusing. Also the introduction of 'free' spells in the proces, might be its weakness. These spells can be detected or dispelled.
- 3rd level: I therefore suggest that you introduce these spells (vocal alteration etc) at 4th level and make them immune to detection, like with detect alignment.
- veiled facade (7th): What wold be the benefit of this? See my comments on the 3rd level ability. Fast and flexible change of alter ego is nice, but is very situational will not get much use. The 1st level ability which requires (almost) no magic is still the capstone.
- "Once per day,...": This I think could be a separate ability. What is its practical use and aim?
- dauntless deception (13th): so you practically are immune to some divination spells. be specific what these are, since at 15th you become immune to all.

I don't have feedback on the spells, since most of them I don't know.

I suggest you balance this Order but taking something away form the base Beguiler class. My suggestion would be 2 or 3 of the following:
- all the 3 'feint' abilities: away with melee
- Trapfinding: a city slicker won't be in dungeons much
- Calculated Coercion: charisma might be needed after all

Before I give my feedback on the other Orders, I woud like to make a more general comment on the Orders:

I would really like the Orders to work and be accepted by DM's. My situation: Our group consists of 6 senior players, who all are a DM in turn. So all new additions are discussed and decided as a group. So I expect these Orders will really recieve some scrutiny.

Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.

But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.

Or am I missing something?

I think te Orders add a layer of extra depth to the Beguiler class. Very nice indeed. But I think that some Orders are nicer than others, because they better able to build on the strengths and central concept of the Beguiler.

I'll start with some feedback on the first two Orders.

Arcane Hand
I think this is my favourite, since it fits my view of the Beguiler the best: the concept of a 'roguish specialist spellcaster'
- arcane bond is okay
- 'artful invocation' and specifically the subpower 'subtle casting' are nice
- how should I see 'subtle casting' combined with the basic BG-skill 'Cloaked Spellcasting' and 'Hidden Signs'? They are somehwat the same, but Cloaked Spellcasting gives +bonuses and ' subtle casting' gives a -penalty. I like it, but became confused when reading it more thorough. Is casting in a sneaky manner not supposed to give you a BONUS?
- ' spectacular casting' seems to be nice, but on the other hand it's not in line with the Beguiler concept. Why a bonus for being pompous?
- Spell Mimic is cool and somewhat overpowered, since you can copy a spell out of thin air. What's the conceptual idea behind this?

Baleful Shadow
This is a more melee oriented Beguiler, which to me is a bit counter intuitive.
- stygian step: nice. Our rogue would love this. The added mobility feels a bit powerful
- wraith strike: seems nice, but in the end it will not add much. +3d4 at 13th level...and you out yourself in melee-range? The ranged attack is more viable, but the extra damage is still low
- shadow trickery: some of these powers are nice, but will only come at 13th level and every 3 levels after. I would choose 'stygian jump' and leave the 'stygian step' altogether

I'm afraid that I don't agree with the concept of the Balefull Shadow Order, since it takes a weak part of the Beguiler (melee) and adds weak extra melee-powers. If 'shadow powered mobility' is the central concept, than I would build on that: that would really add something valuable.

I hope this helps !

Hi ERTW,

Some more feedback

Spells
This is an enormous list from multiple sources. Likely 90% from the DM's will only allow a part of these books. But for the 10% of players that can use alle books, the list might be too long. It gives less credibility to the argument that a narrow spell-list justifies all the extra powers. But that's only my opinion and estimation.

I'll only respond to your newly made Beguiler spells.

First comment is that you win first price for complex and original spell-names. Who are Bragg and Fidget?

Level 0:
- Shadowy Heist: this should be at least a 1st level spel. Non-attended objects seem to be easily stolen with this spell.

Level 3:
- Redouble Dependence: I'm not familiar with addictions, but this spell seems okay for the level. Maybe even a bit weak. The double save weakens it and the 2nd save DC is a bit odd. I woud make it one save.

Level 4:
- Bragg's Reflecting Trick: The description of this spell is mind-boggling. What's the intention and practical use of this spell?
- Phantasmal Conduit: This is a very cool spell. As I understand it, it's a mix of 'Mirror Image' (1d4 +1/3lvl images, max 8) and short range personal 'Dimension Door.' The MI is when the images are next to the Beguiler and the DD (requiring no action) is when they are further away. This can be very powerfull. But since i see the potential, I want it to work. I suggest that the MI works when a figment/double is within 5ft, making it more flexible. I assume that you want to 'shift' around the battlefield, escaping melee-types and burning their actions. Therefore you'll want to position your doubles on tactical places. Shifting should be able on your turn (free action) and on the attackers turn (immediate action), to be in line with this concept. This makes the spell even stronger. But in order to make it balanced, I would strongly suggest you give it a 1rd/level duration. Also, it should be able for attackers to attack a double/figment: figments should have your AC or just AC10+your dex-mod.
- Viral Thoughts: seems okay and in line with the Beguiler concept.

Level 5:
- Extradimensional Alley: Is this just another form of 'Rope Trick'? If so, than make it a 2nd level spell and make the description a lot shorter.
- Flynns H Veil: what's the aim of this spell? It's almost an illusion and and a Charm spell in one. if it's only to avoid attention, than a 3rd level spell would be enough.

Level 6:
- L Last Resort: This seems like a beforehand programmed Teleport and the perfect escape method in a dungeon gone wrong. It has therefore it's merits (auto-success), but also it's limitations (one destination). Overall, I think a level 5 would be enough.
- Move Heavens: Very dramatic, but in the end not very powerful. It can bring Rangers and scouts to madness, but its application seems limited. I would say that spell-level 3 would be enough.
- Viral Amnesia: this can be powerfull in specific roleplay situations. In the end it's pretty situational. I would make it a 5th of even 4th level spell.

Level 7:
- Navas Dreaming Puppet: Seems a overly complex form of Dominate Person, with a lot of fluff text. What's the extra aim of this spell?

Level9:
- Fidgets MoN: I would not allow this spell in my game. Greater Invisibility is bad as it is. I would adjust this spell to, that it would negate 'see invisibility' and 'true seeing'. But let the other senses for what they are: a perfect tool to sabotage a PC's perfect plan. Therefore make it a lower level spell.
- Tormented Reconditioning: What's the aim of this spell? If you want to torture and torment a person, there are simpler ways. You could also just kill the person
- Tyrone's Mind Eraser: Like 'Viral Amnesia' it can be a very powerfull spell in specific roleplay situations. Besides more targets, this spell gives much more creative freedom and flexibility. I suggest making it a 8th level spell and giving the targets a way of regaining their old memories (like by a wish).

Tiny update on umbral reaver pushed out tonight, I had forgotten to write up the ability that allows the slayer to keep using quarry after losing studied target.

Hi ERTW, my sincere compliments for all the work and love you have put into this Beguiler conversion. I greatly enjoy reading it and am planning to play a Beguiler again.

I've been a D&D player for over 25 years and made a 3.5ed 'Beguiler Handbook' (some) 12 years ago under the name 'Nicholas the Paladin'. My life has changed greatly since then, and also has my time for D&D/PF. I'm currently on a holiday, so I have a bit more time and want to help you for what it's worth.

My quick feedback on the Beguiler Conversion (excuse my Dutch English):

In my view that Beguiler is more a full spellcaster than a melee-character and more a specialist than a 'hybrid' jack-of-all-trades. It also more a roguish spellcaster than a spellcasting rogue, in my opinion. This central concept of a 'roguish specialist spellcaster' formes the basis for my comments on your conversion.

The base class
- BAB: the medium BAB for a hybrid class is the right choice
- Reflex: I'm partial about the good Reflex-save, but this might also be fitting for the hybrid nature of the Beguiler
- Surprise Casting: this is stil a weak element in the Beguiler built, since in essence a Beguiler isn't a melee character with it's AC, HP's and BAB (IMHO). The 'improved feint' feat at 2nd level makes it a more realistic tactic, but it's still mediocre. I suppose this is a way to satisfy the players that want some melee capabilities, but I think that a Beguiler that values his life will stay out of melee and melee range. If it were up to my I would cancel this ability altogether.
- Trapfinding: I understand that Trapfinding is usefull in a group that only has one Roguish character. But it's also arguable for the Beguiler class, that is all about (magical) deception, coercien and cleverness. I would think it would be more fitting the concept if the Beguiler has a +1/2 bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy. This would make the 'Suprise Casting' ability also more viable (although that might not be my best argument). You also consider a +1/2 bonus for Bluff and Sense Motive or for saves versus Illusions and Charm/Enhantments (he's a specialist). Overall, I'm neutral towards this ability, also since it already was a Beguiler ability in 3.5
- Cloaked Casting: Yes, very well done. With the introduction of the 'Hidden signs' ability, CC has been given a much more central place. This is a simple solution to a flaw that was part of the original Beguiler.
- Cloaked Casting: On the other hand, I regard CC as a capstone ability, that deserves more impact like the Ranger's Favoured Enemy (FE). Now it's almost negligible. The Beguiler is a specialist: I'd would make it an ever increasing power (like FE) of 2nd, 8th, 14th and 20th level: (2) +1DC, (8) +2DC and +2SR, (14) +3DC, +3SR and (20) +4 DC and overcome SR , when using Cloaked Casting
- Improved Feint: as I said, i regard this a 'patching' of a weak ability and weak concept in the first place. Better give a bonus feat that strengthens the central concept of a 'roguish specialist spellcaster', like 'spellfocus' for Illusion or Enchantment/Charm or metamagic feats that work solely for those two schools
- Savvy Preparation: I like the idea of certain flexibility for each day. A day in the city might be different than one in a dungeon. I see it as alternative version of the old 'Advanced Learning' ability, that had more choice in spells (also non-Beguilers ill/Ench spells) but was fixed once chosen. In the end it might give less flexibility than intended, since most campaigns will not permit the use of all books (we only use CORE and APH).
- Hidden Signs: Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is what the Beguiler and CC ability needed to be more effective and it is more in line with its concept. Very good.
- Muddling Aegis: A very good idea and completely in line with the concept of a roguish spellcaster. The Beguiler covers is tracks.
- Silent spell / Still Spell: Very good. It is as with the original 3.5 Beguiler, but the lack of increase of casting duration is deserved and in line with te concept.
- Calculated Coercion: Thank you. No more MAD. The Beguiler truly is a INT-based caster.
- Swift Feint: see my comments on Surprised Casting and Improved Feint
- Hide in Plain Sight: HIPS is a very interesting ability, but an introduction on 17th level will give it almost no playtime. I would say, introduce it on 8-10 level and delete Surprised Casting, Improved Feint and Swift Feint altogether. The melee-Beguilers might object at first, but a more early introduction of HIPS also fits their needs more than necessary.

I hope this helps !

I will comment of the Orders on a later moment. As of now, I regard the Order of te Arcane Hand as the most viable.