Good Evening Fellow Gamers,
So I am DMing the RotR adventure path (anniversary edition), and have rebuilt Shalelu as an NPC.
I gave her the vital strike chain, and is very skirmish-oriented as an archer. (She has enough stealth to sniper too). I don't know why the vital strike chain gets no love...
Am I misunderstanding something? Shoot and scoot for 2d8+Modifiers per arrow, without burning through dozens of arrows like the other archer in the party does.
And 4d8+3xModifiers when she crits seems like a pretty decent thing.
I've been looking at a mobility fighter with spring attack and a dash-by-slash attack. Since It will be terrible idea to sit still and trade swings, and I can still do damage close to what I would be doing with multiple attacks.
But people seem to be hating on the Vital Strike chain...
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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2d8+1x modifier <<<<<< 3d8+3x modifiers.
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Excuse me, 4d8+4x modifiers, forgot Manyshot.
Vital Strike is extremely restrictive in its application, and can't really be combined with just about anything except for the Attack Action.
Another issue is its inability to stack static bonuses in comparison to full attacks.
I've tried to make a fix, but if it's PFS or similar RAW enforcement, you're going to regret the Vital Strike feat chain.
Conversely, Mythic Vital Strike eliminates these problems altogether, and if you were playing a Mythic campaign, I'd fully recommend it.
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Let us take a level 11 comparison. On one side, you have the Vital Strike set (Vital Strike/Improved Vital Strike/Devastating Strike). The other is the Multishot set (Point Blank/Rapid Shot/Many Shot/etc.)
Let us use a +1 Adaptive Longbow with the player STR at 14 (+2).
Doing this outside of Point-Blank Range, this is the numbers:
Vital Strike:
3d8+7 x1 as Standard Action
Multishot set:
1d8+3 x5 as Full Round
If all hit and does maximum damage:
Vital Strike does 31 Damage
Multishot set does 55 Damage.
Being mobile is nice, but you are an archer, which usually means you have the range to hit targets down the field. A single shot may be nice, but it does cut back your overall damage.
Not to mention, as rare as it may be, Deflect Arrows makes you a sad, sad panda indeed.
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Let us take a level 11 comparison. On one side, you have the Vital Strike set (Vital Strike/Improved Vital Strike/Devastating Strike). The other is the Multishot set (Point Blank/Rapid Shot/Many Shot/etc.)
Let us use a +1 Adaptive Longbow with the player STR at 14 (+2).
Doing this outside of Point-Blank Range, this is the numbers:
Vital Strike:
3d8+7 x1 as Standard ActionMultishot set:
1d8+3 x5 as Full RoundIf all hit and does maximum damage:
Vital Strike does 31 Damage
Multishot set does 55 Damage.Being mobile is nice, but you are an archer, which usually means you have the range to hit targets down the field. A single shot may be nice, but it does cut back your overall damage.
What are odds for all 5 arrows to hit?
What are odds for all 5 arrows to hit?
All 5? Probably mid-low probability.
At least two (one being Manyshot)? Very likely. And 3d8+7x3 is still a lot better than 3d8+7x1.
Good Evening Fellow Gamers,
So I am DMing the RotR adventure path (anniversary edition), and have rebuilt Shalelu as an NPC.
I gave her the vital strike chain, and is very skirmish-oriented as an archer. (She has enough stealth to sniper too). I don't know why the vital strike chain gets no love...
Am I misunderstanding something? Shoot and scoot for 2d8+Modifiers per arrow, without burning through dozens of arrows like the other archer in the party does.
And 4d8+3xModifiers when she crits seems like a pretty decent thing.
I've been looking at a mobility fighter with spring attack and a dash-by-slash attack. Since It will be terrible idea to sit still and trade swings, and I can still do damage close to what I would be doing with multiple attacks.
But people seem to be hating on the Vital Strike chain...
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Unfortunately Vital Strike does not work with Spring Attack or a charge. If you do a short search of the boards/FAQ there are alot of Dev comments/rulings on this.
That is one of the reasons Vital strike is seen as weak. Also Vital strike and its later feats do not multiply your modifiers, and weapon damage dice become a smaller and smaller part of your damage as you go up in level.
In addition to the fact that Vital Strike cannot be taken until BaB 6 where you receive an extra attack it usually results in a damage loss.
For example a normal Level 6 fighter would have the following
Feats:
1rst: Point Blank Shot
Fighter: Precise Shot
Human: Deadly Aim
2nd: Rapid Shot
3rd: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
4th: Weapon Specialization (composite Longbow)
5th: ???
6th: Many-Shot
Stats: (20 Point buy)
Strength: 14
Dexterity: 20 (15 Base, 1 level, 2 human, 2 belt)
Con: 13
Wisdom: 14
Int: 10
Chr: 10
Gear: +1 (2 strength) Composite long bow, +2 Dexterity Belt
Class abilities: Weapon Training 1
Attack line (Outside 30 ft): +10(Primary)/+10(Many-Shot)/+10(Rapid Shot)/+5(Secondary)
Damage (Outside 30 ft): 1d8+9 for Each Arrow, 4d8+36 Total
Attack line (Inside 30 ft): +11(Primary)/+11(Many-Shot)/+11(Rapid Shot)/+6(Secondary)
Damage (Inside 30 ft): 1d8+10 for Each Arrow, 4d8+40 Total
___________________________________________________________________________ ____________________
Now you if using Vital strike would be trading all of this for an attack sequence that looks like the following assuming you took Vital Strike rather than Many-Shot for your level 6 feat.
Attack line (Outside 30 ft): +12(Primary)
Damage (Outside 30 ft): 2d8+9 Total
Attack line (Inside 30 ft): +13(Primary)
Damage (Inside 30 ft): 2d8+10 Total
Now with all of this in mind all Vital Strike is gaining you is a +2 to hit for a loss of between 35 and 40 average damage. This is usually only worthwhile against extremely high AC opponents or creatures with a large amount of DR before getting access to the Clustered Shots feat.
In short in above 95% of situations Vital strike is a damage loss and it does not combine well with anything else (Spring attack, charge).
I hope this helps.
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Vital Strike works fine. It allows you to move more than five feet and still get a decent amount of your full attack in instead of a single regular attack. If your enemies line up like bowling pins within five feet of each other, then Vital Strike may not be much use to you except as an opener, but if this is the case then your enemies apparently have no tactical knowledge at all. Maybe they're zombies or something.
If you're an archer, this helps you stay the heck out of melee without losing all of your damage potential.
Also note that these "omg you could hit 4 times" builds usually gloss over the fact that you'll often miss with the latter iterative, and all of your attacks are at -2. This closes the gap quite a bit in practice unless your enemies are slow and squishy. Again, zombies maybe.
I understand that I can't hit with attacks I don't make. :)
But with the diminishing likelihood of hitting your target with iterative attacks, you can say you might only be getting 1 successful attack, and you can't move.
Lets say we're doing 1d8+3 with each arrow. A full-attack with Rapid shot would put her at +12/+12/+7, and do 3d8+9 if she hits with all three, and is locked in place.
Or, she can fire one arrow at +14, and do 2d8+3, and can still move (or stealth & snipe).
The potential for damage is indeed higher with a full-attack, but on average, there is only a roughly 10 point difference between the averages of 3d8+9, and 2d8+3.
Even the minimum damages are only 7 points apart (12 for Rapid Shot, 5 for Vital Strike) While the maximums are 14 points apart (33 for Rapid Shot and 19 for Vital Strike)
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
HOLY COW SO MANY RESPONSES!!
Also, I might house rule that you can use vital strike any time you could make an attack action.
Charge, Spring Attack, etc.
It seems ludicrous that you couldn't.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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If we're talking house rules, collapsing the Vital Strike chain into a scaling feat is definitely something to consider.
And agreed on the confusion about it not working with Spring Attack. It seems like that's something you'd want to encourage it working with, just to give some options outside full attacks.
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Vital Strike is a situational combat feat. It's not going to add up to a lot of damage, but it's a good option when you have to move anyway, and it does work in conjunction with sniping.
Lets say we're doing 1d8+3 with each arrow. A full-attack with Rapid shot would put her at +12/+12/+7, and do 3d8+9 if she hits with all three, and is locked in place.
Or, she can fire one arrow at +14, and do 2d8+3, and can still move (or stealth & snipe).
The potential for damage is indeed higher with a full-attack, but on average, there is only a roughly 10 point difference between the averages of 3d8+9, and 2d8+3.
Even the minimum damages are only 7 points apart (12 for Rapid Shot, 5 for Vital Strike) While the maximums are 14 points apart (33 for Rapid Shot and 19 for Vital Strike)
Very Respectfully,
--BaconHOLY COW SO MANY RESPONSES!!
I'm not sure you understand exactly how significant of a difference 10 points of damage is.
Especially when that 10 points of damage only comes from TWO of the attacks (the +12s in your scenario).
Take two level 6 Archers.
One has Rapid Shot and Manyshot. So that's 4 attacks, each at a -2. 5 arrows total.
Maximum possible with your +3 bonus there, 5d8+15.
Your character is still stuck at a simple 2d8+3, maximum.
That's an average damage gap of 3 points, NOT in your favor (2d8+6) IF THE OTHER ARCHER ONLY HITS HIS FIRST SHOT. The second is likely to hit as well, pushing it up to 3d8+9, and that 2d8+3, giving you your 10 point average gap.
Then the potential for another 7 average damage, making the gap a total of 17. Throw Deadly Aim in there, and you're losing another 4 damage per shot after the first. Static bonuses are your BANE. Your additive disadvantage turns into a multiplicative disadvantage there.
Fast forward to max potential. Level 16.
Greater Vital Strike + Devastating Strike: 4d8+9
BaB+Rapid Shot+Manyshot: 6d8+18
You actually win a little bit here if the other guy only hits the first two arrows, after being slightly behind him the whole time.
But that all changes when we...
Throw in Deadly Aim again.
4d8+19 vs 6d8+78
You lose. Period. Drop that down to the first two arrows again (Rapid+Manyshot) and 3d8+39 whips your ass hardcore. Even only the first shot hitting means you barely break even (2d8+26, average 35 vs 4d8+19, average 36).
Vital Strike is a backup for when you have nothing better to do and for some reason can't make a full attack.
As an archer...this is a rarity. It may have some merit in a Rogue or Vivisectionist (or maybe the upcoming Slayer) build that likes to get a good sniping Sneak Attack off, but even then only as an NPC because that extra Sneak Attack damage only brings you up in the ballpark of where just full attacking would have gotten you, and you wasted a good chunk of your Feats on it, without having the number of Feats (like a Fighter does) to invest in both.
Unfortunately, Vital Strike can't be used with Spring Attack.
oddly enough, flyby attack works fine with it.
If it worked with Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, and charges, it would be a nice mid-tier feat. As it is, it's a little soft, though slightly more desirable for hard-hitting melee types with a feat or two to spare.
However, Vital Strike works great for archers who want to interrupt with a readied action.
Mmhmm.
Vital Strike is a pretty darn good Feat for NPCs.
the vital/devastating strike line with furious finish and size shenanigans is really the ONLY way to bring vital strike to a semi-feasible option (aside from mythic vital strike, which is awesome), and even then is hard to get going with much effect until high levels.
some druids pull it with wildshape behemoth hippo+strong jaw+etc. some monks (4 winds mostly, such as the "captain falcon" build) take advantage of it.
I could see a tiefling (oversized limbs) barbarian trying it out with a large-sized +X impact bastard sword or a huge-sized sunblade and something like enlarge person/righteous might/etc. to increase their size (outsider type makes this kinda tricky though)
To be quite honest, manyshot is plenty enough justification to never use vital strike. The only justification for vital strike at all is if you have to move, and being an archer, that shouldn't be much of a concern.
But since it never hurts to show DPR for the sake of comparison:
Take a level 11 fighters, set up by PFS rules, and equipped to WBL(same equipment of course).
Archer
Human (Taldan) Fighter 11
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork kukri +19/+14/+9 (1d4+7/18-20/×2)
Ranged +2 adaptive, seeking composite longbow +21/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+19/×3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (light blades +3, bows +4)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 31 (35 vs. disarm, 35 vs. sunder)
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point Blank Master, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Traits indomitable faith, observant
Skills Climb +15, Handle Animal +10, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +15, Ride +15, Survival +7, Swim +16
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ seeking
Other Gear +3 Mithral Kikko armor, +2 Adaptive, Seeking Composite longbow (Str +0), Masterwork Kukri, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Boots of the cat, Bracers of archery, lesser, Cloak of resistance +3, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (1 @ 45.12 lbs), Ring of protection +1, Swarmbane clasp, Backpack (13 @ 17.5 lbs), Bedroll, Flint and steel, Piton (5), Silk rope, Torch (5), 2248 GP, 3 SP, 5 CP
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Special Abilities
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Boots of the cat When falling, always land on feet and take the minimum damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Seeking Ignores miss chances, but must be aimed at the correct square.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Swarmbane clasp Weapon/natural att deal full dam to swarms, and immune to the distraction ability of swarms.
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Assume I have swapped out vital strike and improved vital strike for clustered shots and iron will.
If you compare the DPRs:
On a full attack (so no vital strike) 91.5 DPR (against an equal CR target so AC 25 on average)
for vital strike: 35.5
So if you don't mind giving up 61% of you damage by using vital strike, go ahead. I'd generally not be inclined to do that.
It's not theorycraft to point out that vital strike doesn't work with spring attack.
While this is definitely no help to PFS nor Core books only PF gamers, there is a 3rd party product by Rite Publishing, Way of the Samurai, that offers a ranger archetype called Yojimbo and includes a new combat style: iaijutsu that includes the Vital Strike feat chain as part of the combat style. The real advantage is that you don't need to have vital strike, in order to take improved vital strike at 6th level, since prerequisites aren't required for combat style feat selections.
Again, if you don't allow 3PP material, this is no help for you.
In my home game I actually give out the full vital strike chain for one feat. That seems more fair to me.
Truthfully I can't see it being a good feat investment on an archer at all since archery really is feat intensive. On a 2 hander, you probably have enough room to squeeze them in (though again, there are other options worthy of consideration given the chain's limitations).
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Truthfully I can't see it being a good feat investment on an archer at all since archery really is feat intensive. On a 2 hander, you probably have enough room to squeeze them in (though again, there are other options worthy of consideration given the chain's limitations).
It works with a Zen Archer. They get so many feats for free that you can invest one or two on Vital Strike for those times when you only get a standard action, or have to move and shoot.
I agree that building your Archer around the Vital Strike chain doesn't sound like a good idea, but having a couple of the feats (if you have the extra feats available) for those times when you can only shoot one shot doesn't hurt.
At one point I was trying to make a crossbow single shot build using vital strike and focused shot, but it really never shaped up too well.
I have to agree vital strike is weak to mr shoots lotsa arrows.
Now if you are playing in a game that requires you to be powerful vital strike is not the way to go. If you build a character not designed to be as powerfull as possible vital strike can be a fun way to go.
Now what causes vital strike to lose out is the added damage you can get for each shot. Weapon specilization, smite, deadly aim, composite bows with strength, magical bonuses, and whatever adds to damage.
Vital strike does not multiply these advantags that rapidshot can.
Back on my odd notion of single shot optimization with a crossbow, the idea entailed using kirin strike, focused shot, and vital strike with a heavy crossbow.
Now if you don't mind burning a lot of stat on intelligence you can get:
say at level 11 fighter (since I like that one) with 20 point buy
str10
dex 20 (+2 item)
con 14
Int 18 (+2 item)
Wis 10
Chr 10
assume +2 seeker heavy crossbow, gloves of dueling, +2 dex belt, +2 int headband
focused shot with Kirin Strike and improved vital strike
+20 3d10+26 or average 42.5 on one ranged shot. That's really not bad, but compared to unloading with a manyshot full action, it does pale a fair amount.
If you can throw in bracers of falcon's aim, it would help a good bit.
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IF the fighter is a crossbowman that shot does another +5 damage from dexterity and the target is denied Dex to AC against the attack. If you are a kobold or took racial heritage kobold, the alternate fighter favored class bonus will add another +5 to the damage on the shot. If you have sneak attack, that will also apply.
The person who uses non-Mythic Vital Strike the best is a Monk of the Four Winds because he has the option of taking 3 standard actions (and 3 vital strikes) at 12th level.
At 20th level, this allows for a stupid amount of damage but it really only functions at high levels. Trying to level a character up organically to create this build is going to amount in tears and frustration.
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IF the fighter is a crossbowman that shot does another +5 damage from dexterity and the target is denied Dex to AC against the attack. If you are a kobold or took racial heritage kobold, the alternate fighter favored class bonus will add another +5 to the damage on the shot. If you have sneak attack, that will also apply.
Yes, but the crossbowman archetype dispenses with weapon training, so you are losing +4 to hit and +4 damage, and I think I'd rather have +4/+4 than just +5 damage. Lots of the fighter archetypes are traps (which IMO means the ones which lose weapon training).
Yes, but the crossbowman archetype dispenses with weapon training, so you are losing +4 to hit and +4 damage, and I think I'd rather have +4/+4 than just +5 damage. Lots of the fighter archetypes are traps (which IMO means the ones which lose weapon training).
Except that you don't, as they get that weapon training specifically to crossbows with the Crossbow Expert ability.
Also, I might house rule that you can use vital strike any time you could make an attack action.
Charge, Spring Attack, etc.
It seems ludicrous that you couldn't.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
We house rule that. As well vital can be used on the first attack of full attack action. It's worked well in our games. It adds on average about 4 damage per level of Vital strike on 1 handed weapon. From player point of view it's not bad but big monster you need to be careful with it. Great Vital Strike on base 4D6 damage 16D6 damage. It quickly eats up the hit points.
Except that you don't, as they get that weapon training specifically to crossbows with the Crossbow Expert ability.Yes, but the crossbowman archetype dispenses with weapon training, so you are losing +4 to hit and +4 damage, and I think I'd rather have +4/+4 than just +5 damage. Lots of the fighter archetypes are traps (which IMO means the ones which lose weapon training).
I guess technically I should have said -2/-2 now that I think about since since you get that analog. However since it is not normal weapon training, gloves of dueling no longer work with it.
I think i saw a barbarian build which focused on increasing his weapon's size. The Vital Strike chain works well with that. Think he got above 100 damage at lvl10 on 1 hit.
I remember this. If only Titan Mauler actually let you use bigger weapons like the archetype was supposed to.
That way you could end up using a weapon 2 sizes bigger then you, plus lead blades, plus enlarge person.
So you end up with a colossal weapon (8d6) plus the vital strike chain (32d6) + Furious finish.
Take a level of oracle with the lame curse, and you are immune to fatigue past level 8 (so barb 8/oracle 1). Couple that with the metal mystery and you don't lose any movement when holding a metal weapon.