First of all, I want to say pre-painted plastic miniatures is an important product for a game like Pathfinder, and I'm very happy to see the need being filled post-WotC. Well done.
Without further ado, here are some thoughts/suggestions:
1. Each set should have a gallery in the main product listing. The gallery should start as "?" mark (or similar), and every time a mini is previewed, it should go into the gallery with the rarity and size clearly marked. Preferably with a link to the relevant preview. If any un-previewed minis remain when a set is released, the gallery should be updated to be complete. This seems like a relatively simple but very useful addition.
2. Paizo needs to own customer service/replacements. This is a Pathfinder-branded product. Your name on the tin, your skin in the game. Not my rule -- that's just how branding works. :)
3. Durability is improved still an issue compared to DDM. I do get that the more brittle material used here probably holds detail better, but there is something to be said for the vinyl-like material used in DDM. You could just toss them into a bin and they simply. don't. break. I get that Hasbro has a LOT of experience making small plastic toys, but is there no way WizKids can replicate?
4. More builder series, please. I know these will get easier as the backlog of sculpts build, but they are a wonderful value. I don't buy by the case, and haven't even picked up boosters for the last few sets, but I always buy a builder mini or two when at the FLGS. It's just such a great impulse purchase...keep 'em coming!
1. Each set should have a gallery in the main product listing. The gallery should start as "?" mark (or similar), and every time a mini is previewed, it should go into the gallery with the rarity and size clearly marked. Preferably with a link to the relevant preview. If any un-previewed minis remain when a set is released, the gallery should be updated to be complete. This seems like a relatively simple but very useful addition.
Just curious, is there a reason Paizo should replicate what Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper's Pathfinder Mini Site is already doing very well?
Not only does he put up the pictures but once the set is out he adds a downloadable checklist. Seems Paizo is smart for working with the fan site and let the fan site offer this service.
A couple reasons come readily to mind:Just curious, is there a reason Paizo should replicate what Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper's Pathfinder Mini Site is already doing very well?
Not only does he put up the pictures but once the set is out he adds a downloadable checklist. Seems Paizo is smart for working with the fan site and let the fan site offer this service.
* Folks might not know where to find it (I didn't -- though in fairness I was almost certain something like it existed somewhere). Maybe put a link on the pertinent product pages?
* Paizo doesn't control the content, so they can't (for example) know when a fan site might go away.
That said, that site looks useful, and I appreciate the link.
4. More builder series, please. I know these will get easier as the backlog of sculpts build, but they are a wonderful value. I don't buy by the case, and haven't even picked up boosters for the last few sets, but I always buy a builder mini or two when at the FLGS. It's just such a great impulse purchase...keep 'em coming!
I'm not sure what the decision on those are at the moment, but Erik mentioned on one of his blog previews in the past that builder sets aren't selling well enough for Wizkids to be happy with making them.
I'm not sure what the decision on those are at the moment, but Erik mentioned on one of his blog previews in the past that builder sets aren't selling well enough for Wizkids to be happy with making them.
Noooooooooo...
That's really too bad regarding the Builder series. We Be Goblins is actually what got me buying, and I am now a case purchaser.
Chief Technical Officer
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Paizo needs to own customer service/replacements. This is a Pathfinder-branded product. Your name on the tin, your skin in the game. Not my rule -- that's just how branding works. :)
Sorry, man—licensing doesn't work that way. When your Coke lamp doesn't work, who's the responsible party: Coca-Cola, or the company that actually made the lamp? Do you expect Lucasfilm to replace your Star Wars gummy fruit snacks if they taste funny? When you have a problem with your World of Warcraft credit card, do you take it up with Blizzard?
Durability is improved still an issue compared to DDM. I do get that the more brittle material used here probably holds detail better, but there is something to be said for the vinyl-like material used in DDM. You could just toss them into a bin and they simply. don't. break. I get that Hasbro has a LOT of experience making small plastic toys, but is there no way WizKids can replicate?
We don't want them to replicate that. The more rigid plastic is a *big* part of the reason why we think most Pathfinder Battles minis look better than most D&D minis, and we think that most customers will decide that any reasonable additional care required on their part will be worth it. That said, we also want to make sure that minis are not so fragile that they're broken in transit—we want WizKids to find a happy balance there.
We don't want them to replicate that. The more rigid plastic is a *big* part of the reason why we think most Pathfinder Battles minis look better than most D&D minis, and we think that most customers will decide that any reasonable additional care required on their part will be worth it. That said, we also want to make sure that minis are not so fragile that they're broken in transit—we want WizKids to find a happy balance there.
I'd agree with this. While I've had a couple minis break in shipping, it's always been the support rod or they fell off the base. I've got several hundred PF Battles minis now and they're not treated especially gently. I throw them in tubs based on type (100+ in the undead tub, 100+ in the fiends tub, 100+ in the aberrations tub etc), mixed with DDMs and nothing bad has ever happened.
I'm quite comfortable with the durability of the actual minis. Really, I think two things should reasonably be done to improve shipping survivability:
1} The assembly team shouldn't be afraid to use more than a molecule of glue to bind a mini to a base. They're VERY much taking care to ensure that no glue ever seeps out to the side of a foot and becomes visible, and that's great BUT it doesn't need to be so extreme.
2} A bit more care needs to be put into packing minis with lots of mass to them in a box. Gilbreth is a great example of a hammer which will get loose and start knocking things about. It's just a dense ball of hard plastic, so it's going to act different from say... a goblin pyro. I noticed some minis behind the trays this case, physically separated from the rest by the plastic. Something like that may need to happen more frequently.
All in all the visual quality of these minis has been the largest contributing factor to me spending the money on so many. Two full cases so far and a whole bunch of singles both through paizo.com and at my FLGS.
That's my input. I don't expect it to be anyone else's but there it is.
Sorry, man—licensing doesn't work that way. When your Coke lamp doesn't work, who's the responsible party: Coca-Cola, or the company that actually made the lamp? Do you expect Lucasfilm to replace your Star Wars gummy fruit snacks if they taste funny? When you have a problem with your World of Warcraft credit card, do you take it up with Blizzard?
Patherfinder isn't Coke. And even Coke is careful about *what sort of products* they'll license their brand for. Why do you suppose Coke doesn't license its brand for a line of sports drinks? (They even make their own sports drink, which they don't brand Coke!) Because soda and sports drinks are similar enough to create brand confusion. On the other hand, lamps and soda are drastically different. Credit cards and MMOs are drastically different. Consumers understand that, and so there is no confusion. But Pathfinder the RPG and Pathfinder miniatures? Not so much. You guys even make the maps on which the minis are used, for heaven's sake. Any reasonable consumer who sees "Pathfinder" on a box of minis is going to think Paizo made them. Boom! Brand confusion.
Let me put it another way: If the situation is as clear as you suppose, why does Paizo find itself having to repeatedly explain it?
We don't want them to replicate that. The more rigid plastic is a *big* part of the reason why we think most Pathfinder Battles minis look better than most D&D minis, and we think that most customers will decide that any reasonable additional care required on their part will be worth it. That said, we also want to make sure that minis are not so fragile that they're broken in transit—we want WizKids to find a happy balance there.
This is purely anecdotal, but the folks in my neck of the woods (AZ) seem pretty united in the desire for the minis to be more durable. Of course, at the end of the day I can only speak for myself. I would buy many more Pathfinder minis if the were as durable as D&D minis.
I'm curious, though -- and I'm asking this in earnest -- do you think you know what your customers prefer (which is what you said above), or have you actually asked?
Sorry, man—licensing doesn't work that way. When your Coke lamp doesn't work, who's the responsible party: Coca-Cola, or the company that actually made the lamp? Do you expect Lucasfilm to replace your Star Wars gummy fruit snacks if they taste funny? When you have a problem with your World of Warcraft credit card, do you take it up with Blizzard?
I realize and agree that that's not how licensing works, but I also don't think your analogies are quite analogous. Coca-Cola visibly isn't in the lamp-making business; Lucasfilm visibly isn't in the fruit snack business, and Blizzard visibly isn't in the credit card business. Paizo visibly is in the game product business, so while it's not reasonable to expect Paizo to replace the broken minis, Paizo's Pathfinder brand is going to suffer a greater negative impact from customer dissatisfaction than those other companies in your scenarios. A better analogy might be if Coca-Cola licensed Pepsi to manufacture Coke in cans, and the cans were all flat and the flavor was off. That's going to damage the Coke brand.
We don't want them to replicate that. The more rigid plastic is a *big* part of the reason why we think most Pathfinder Battles minis look better than most D&D minis, and we think that most customers will decide that any reasonable additional care required on their part will be worth it.
I certainly do not want them to replicate that. I'd prefer the occasional (so long as it remains occasional) broken mini in a line that looks great to only very rare broken minis in a line that looks all blobby.
That said, we also want to make sure that minis are not so fragile that they're broken in transit—we want WizKids to find a happy balance there.
My instinct is that the happy balance lies in the packaging.
We don't want them to replicate that. The more rigid plastic is a *big* part of the reason why we think most Pathfinder Battles minis look better than most D&D minis, and we think that most customers will decide that any reasonable additional care required on their part will be worth it. That said, we also want to make sure that minis are not so fragile that they're broken in transit—we want WizKids to find a happy balance there.
I agree whole-heartedly. I probably have thousands of the old D&D minis, and the only compelling reason for me to continue buying minis is that the Pathfinder minis blow the old D&D ones out of the water in every way (sculpt, paint-job, detail).
I've been purchasing the Pathfinder Battles minis since the first set, and only had one instance of a mini coming out of the box broken (Locust Demon from WotR), and never had one break on me due to storage or rough use (and my two year old plays with them). I think the balance that WizKids has stuck is perfect.
I agree whole-heartedly. I probably have thousands of the old D&D minis, and the only compelling reason for me to continue buying minis is that the Pathfinder minis blow the old D&D ones out of the water in every way (sculpt, paint-job, detail).
I've been purchasing the Pathfinder Battles minis since the first set, and only had one instance of a mini coming out of the box broken (Locust Demon from WotR), and never had one break on me due to storage or rough use (and my two year old plays with them). I think the balance that WizKids has stuck is perfect.
I'm completely prepared to accept that my preferences, or the preferences of those in my immediate area, don't represent the preferences of Paizo's overall customer base. I'm just curious if Paizo really knows what the majority of their customers prefer, or they're just going on a feeling.
May I ask how you're storing your Pathfinder Battles minis? I've found just putting them in bins or plastic bags the way I do D&D minis leads to breakage. I'd like to find something that travels easily but isn't too bulky.
I store all my minis on a huge five peace bookshelf personally.
I'm glad they're so rigid, I hated how bendy the DDM ones were.
So much so in fact, that I'm selling off my DDM stuff as pathfinder mini versions become available to replace them with.
May I ask how you're storing your Pathfinder Battles minis? I've found just putting them in bins or plastic bags the way I do D&D minis leads to breakage. I'd like to find something that travels easily but isn't too bulky.
Sure! For the most part, I have the Pathfinder Battles minis mixed in with the D&D minis (Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!). I use old D&D booster boxes with themes like "dwarves", "undead" or "arctic", and throw them all in there. I have a lot of the larger or cooler looking ones out on display (like the Clockwork Reliquary, for example).
If I'm looking for a particular mini, I take out the labeled booster and dump them out on the table to sort through them. I'm relatively careful when doing this, but I'm kind of a clutz, so some of them always wind up on the floor, and I haven't had any break. Maybe I've just been lucky.
A big problem I had with the D&D minis wasn't breakage, but horribly warped figures. Going back to my first few boxes of Harbinger, I remember getting an Axe Sister whose double axe blades were folded in on themselves so badly I couldn't pry them apart, even with the ol' boiling water trick. I've had bases on some large minis so warped, they wouldn't sit flat on a table. I've only had one case a badly warped mini in PB - Highlady Athroxis's polearm. Pretty much EVERY D&D mini polearm was warped. I remember lining up a squadron of those female Ogre Skirmishers, and remarking on how every spear was pointing in a different direction....
Anyway, that's a long way of me saying the soft plastic used in D&D caused me way more problems than the harder plastic in PB. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course, and I appreciate hearing your perspective. Maybe I've truly just been lucky and I should start storing them a little more carefully before that luck runs out!
Sure! For the most part, I have the Pathfinder Battles minis mixed in with the D&D minis (Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!). I use old D&D booster boxes with themes like "dwarves", "undead" or "arctic", and throw them all in there. I have a lot of the larger or cooler looking ones out on display (like the Clockwork Reliquary, for example).
If I'm looking for a particular mini, I take out the labeled booster and dump them out on the table to sort through them. I'm relatively careful when doing this, but I'm kind of a clutz, so some of them always wind up on the floor, and I haven't had any break. Maybe I've just been lucky.
A big problem I had with the D&D minis wasn't breakage, but horribly warped figures. Going back to my first few boxes of Harbinger, I remember getting an Axe Sister whose double axe blades were folded in on themselves so badly I couldn't pry them apart, even with the ol' boiling water trick. I've had bases on some large minis so warped, they wouldn't sit flat on a table. I've only had one case a badly warped mini in PB - Highlady Athroxis's polearm. Pretty much EVERY D&D mini polearm was warped. I remember lining up a squadron of those female Ogre Skirmishers, and remarking on how every spear was pointing in a different direction....
Anyway, that's a long way of me saying the soft plastic used in D&D caused me way more problems than the harder plastic in PB. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course, and I appreciate hearing your perspective. Maybe I've truly just been lucky and I should start storing them a little more carefully before that luck runs out!
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
The D&D minis were a mixed bag. So of them were great -- flat bases, figures holding the correct shape, etc. -- but others would have pretty badly warped bases. This actually seemed to become more of a problem in the later sets (for me, at least). The sculpt quality of D&D minis also took a huge hit when they went to a CAD system.
On the other hand, some of my Pathfinder minis (mostly the builder sets -- again, in my experience) are pretty flexible and can safely be treated with less care. I really, really like those. But others are very rigid and brittle, and tend to lose limbs, etc. if you drop them, or even come out of the box broken. I had an elf wizard form heroes and monsters whose pointing finger broke the first time I used him.
Overall, I'd say the Pathfinder Battles minis look like the better-looking D&D minis...I just wish they were more durable overall.
Edit: Now I'm wondering if putting your Pathfinder and D&D minis together is a really good idea, because the softer D&D minis might be acting as a cushion. I think I'll give that a try, actually. :)
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I put my pathfinder minis loosely in plastic bins, the keyword was loosly, if you pack them into the bins tightly, there is more pressure on the small pieces meaning that they no longer have what little give the harder plastic allow for..... I have thrown these bins down two flights of stairs without a single break. The only minis in over ten cases I have opened between the store I work odd jobs for and myself that came broken were the legs of the red spidery thing from shattered star and the Blue dragon's horn from shattered star.
Paizo needs to own customer service/replacements. This is a Pathfinder-branded product. Your name on the tin, your skin in the game. Not my rule -- that's just how branding works. :)Sorry, man—licensing doesn't work that way. When your Coke lamp doesn't work, who's the responsible party: Coca-Cola, or the company that actually made the lamp? Do you expect Lucasfilm to replace your Star Wars gummy fruit snacks if they taste funny? When you have a problem with your World of Warcraft credit card, do you take it up with Blizzard?
When Amazon delivers a broken Playstation, I send it back to Amazon, not to Sony.
When I by an iProduct directely at Apple, I take it up with them, not Foxcon.Paizo is in a double function here: You are the retailer AND the product bears your name.
Pointing at Wizkids with their aparently s*%*ty replacement system is just plain lazy.
Count me in as someone who stopped buying PF minis due to the durability issues.
Vic & Erik, you can defend your decisions all you want. I won't argue. Bottom line is: my money; my decision; none of it is flowing to your miniatures line.
I bought minis up to the set where the durability was supposedly fixed, and ended up with more broken minis than ever. WizKids return policy made matters worse. A limit on five minis returned per shipment?! So, I have to pay shipping twice?! It is their fault the minis are broken. I've had replacement miniatures show up broken. How much more proof do you need than that?
I would buy lots of these miniatures... but only if they were durable.
EDIT: Pardon my tone. I did not intend to be rude. Read this as passionate because I want to buy these miniatures, and feel that I simply cannot.
Seems like a good place to chime in. Maybe if enough of us do, we can actually make a case for those of us who DO care about durability.
I too would *LOVE* to buy more of these minis, if I trusted them to survive. I will only buy individuals, for various reasons. The last time I ordered, despite what should have been adequate protection in the packaging, 8 of about 80 minis were broken.
I sent them in, and made the mistake of bundling two packages together for Wizkids replacement. I received back only the 5 on one of the two packages back. Took about 6 weeks to get the whole thing straightened out, and in the end, 2 of those 8 returned showed up broken. I glued them together and vowed not to buy another one until this was addressed. (and I haven't)
Addressing brand new order shipping alone really doesn't cut it for me; if they aren't durable, how are they to survive:
* basic use
* dice ninjas
* a move
???
I've heard the new packaging has helped, but I also read (and forgive me, I couldn't find the direct quote again, but I believe it was Erik Mona who said this) about someone getting a new set in the new packaging and breaking two of them because they were too excited or enthusiastic popping them out. I'm sorry, but I expect that kind of breakage on pulling chocolate out of an advent calendar, not out of miniatures I intend to use for years to come.
I *REALLY* want to be able to permit myself to buy these again, and I still would if we had to sacrifice a little on the looks to get there. I'm obviously not alone in this...
These sets are fantastic (in theme, creature picks, etc), but I refuse to pay to bring garbage (I'm not trying to be nasty here... this is just how I feel about items I purchase that arrive broken...) into my home. On the upside, you guys are saving me a bundle of cash!!