Factoring in player creativity.

[blahpers]

Otm-Shank wrote:

blahpers wrote:

Having limited choice is not the same as having no choice at all. See: real life.

I'm curious, does your group run purely simulationist games? Do you ever run premade anything or have campaigns with a specific goal to them?

I've run a few modules, and they've worked just fine. I haven't ever seen the need to rearrange reality in such a way as to negate player decisions. If the party decides, "screw it, Falcon's Hollow is a plague town" and leave, no problem--module's over, for better or worse.

[Mark Hoover]

blahpers wrote:

There's a wide spectrum between pure sandbox and reality contortions. I'm not interested in discussing false dilemmas.

What is pure sandbox? To me its

Me: Hi, I'm Mark, nice to meet you 4 strangers at this table. Shall we begin?

Players: Hi I'm...

Me (interrupting): you're in a field. Go.

Players: oh, umm, well, besides the other guys, what do we see?

Me: I have no idea. Let me consult the dice...

I am not saying that's wrong at all, just not that I'm into that. Please tell me if that's what we're saying and if so, how has that worked out?

[Bodhizen]

Don't forget about the Vacuum Fallacy.

Even though players are free to ignore certain plot points that you have set up in your story, that doesn't mean that things aren't going to happen while they're busy doing the things that they want to do.

For example, if you set up a village that they come to that's suffering from a murderous little band of goblin nitwits that you want the player characters to rescue from the nefarious Burbleglitz and his giant slug-riding hooligans (the aforementioned goblin nitwits), and they choose to ignore Burbleglitz while they poke around in the forest... Give them a couple of days. At that point, Burbleglitz has taken over the whole town, eaten all the men (and subsequently become morbidly obese) and has enslaved all the women to use to spit-shine his greasy toenails (and the toenails of all of his slug-riders). He's also managed to lay his fat fingers on the Lord Mayor's Rod of Awesome Power, so now he's an even bigger threat than before.

Meanwhile, Burbleglitz's sponsor (the villainous Count Dorkulot) no longer has the Lord Mayor interfering with his plans for cutting down the forest between the Lord Mayor's dinky little fishing village and Mount Mudslide (where tasty drinks are made by duergar brewmasters). So he's free to send in his cross-dressing orc lumberjacks (complete with magical flannel vests of protection +2.67) to cut down the trees, which will irritate the Merrily Dancing Elf Clan, who happen to live in that patch of forest. Since the Lord Mayor was protecting them (mostly because he liked watching the lady-elves dance, and they were good trading partners), it'll be much easier for the orc lumberjacks to drive them into Burbleglitz's flabby, waiting arms. Between the goblin slug-riding hooligans and the cross-dressing orc lumberjacks, the small elven settlement is in dire straits.

But, the player characters are off picking daisies and looking for dragon-spoor to dig around in for gold coins, and that's probably fun too.

Best wishes!

[blahpers]

Mark Hoover wrote:

blahpers wrote:

There's a wide spectrum between pure sandbox and reality contortions. I'm not interested in discussing false dilemmas.

What is pure sandbox? To me its

Me: Hi, I'm Mark, nice to meet you 4 strangers at this table. Shall we begin?

Players: Hi I'm...

Me (interrupting): you're in a field. Go.

Players: oh, umm, well, besides the other guys, what do we see?

Me: I have no idea. Let me consult the dice...

I am not saying that's wrong at all, just not that I'm into that. Please tell me if that's what we're saying and if so, how has that worked out?

That's . . . pretty darned sandboxy. Definitely not my cup of tea either.

[blahpers]

Bodhizen wrote:

Don't forget about the Vacuum Fallacy.

Even though players are free to ignore certain plot points that you have set up in your story, that doesn't mean that things aren't going to happen while they're busy doing the things that they want to do.

For example, if you set up a village that they come to that's suffering from a murderous little band of goblin nitwits that you want the player characters to rescue from the nefarious Burbleglitz and his giant slug-riding hooligans (the aforementioned goblin nitwits), and they choose to ignore Burbleglitz while they poke around in the forest... Give them a couple of days. At that point, Burbleglitz has taken over the whole town, eaten all the men (and subsequently become morbidly obese) and has enslaved all the women to use to spit-shine his greasy toenails (and the toenails of all of his slug-riders). He's also managed to lay his fat fingers on the Lord Mayor's Rod of Awesome Power, so now he's an even bigger threat than before.

Meanwhile, Burbleglitz's sponsor (the villainous Count Dorkulot) no longer has the Lord Mayor interfering with his plans for cutting down the forest between the Lord Mayor's dinky little fishing village and Mount Mudslide (where tasty drinks are made by duergar brewmasters). So he's free to send in his cross-dressing orc lumberjacks (complete with magical flannel vests of protection +2.67) to cut down the trees, which will irritate the Merrily Dancing Elf Clan, who happen to live in that patch of forest. Since the Lord Mayor was protecting them (mostly because he liked watching the lady-elves dance, and they were good trading partners), it'll be much easier for the orc lumberjacks to drive them into Burbleglitz's flabby, waiting arms. Between the goblin slug-riding hooligans and the cross-dressing orc lumberjacks, the small elven settlement is in dire straits.

But, the player characters are off picking daisies and looking for dragon-spoor to dig around in for gold coins, and that's probably fun too.

Best wishes!

Exactly. Actions (and inaction) have consequences.

[YRM]

Mark Hoover wrote:

YRM wrote:

(I don't know any player on earth who would not immediately kick the ninja's ---es and then got to the village and kick all those ninja's ---es too.)

I do. God help me, I had a player once who just drove a campaign into the ground in situations like this, purposely steamrolling away from ANY plot hook. He was in a situation kind of like this where some guards they KNEW were corrupt and working for an evil sheriff showed up to shake down the party. This guy laid down all his weapons and walked away.

...

After enough of his shenannigans I just handed him the game. He had more fun running and setting his own plot hooks; I had more fun not fighting him.

That's just shy of punching the DM in the face when he asks you to roll initiative.

If the rest of the players were happy with the job you were doing, I'd have talked to them, and to the guy privately.

Maybe say to your other players, "Guys, I'm trying my best here... but Josh seems to hate all my plot hooks and actively rebels against them. Am I doing something wrong?"

When they say "You're doing a great job."

You say, "Is there anything you guys can do to help?"

Eventually, when push comes to shove, and he does a thing like tosses his weapons down and walks away, just say, "Josh walks down the road and out of the fight... everyone stares in disbelief for the next 10 minutes until he's a pinprick on the horizon, a mile out of the way."

Then have the fight. Make it a nice, long, tactical fight and just keep skipping the guy when it's his turn.