Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure I understand what it means to say a particular alignment is less viable to playPlayers making the choice to use the character they are on to engage in a murder simulator (an illegitimate action) is being tied to a specific character alignment (legitimate decision). It's being assumed everyone with that alignment on their character sheet did the illegitimate actions to get there. Consequently the alignment as a whole is purposely being made not fun and full of suck, regardless if an individual player actually did the illegitimate actions with that character or not, i.e the alignment is less viable to play.
Back to my original question. Does designing a grind to change a legitimate game feature to deal with murder hooligans seem illogical and/or redundant with the fact there's already a purpose-built system defined as the one dealing with player behavior?
I looked back for your original question. I reread this one slowly. Me slow.
Do you mean: Does it seem redundant to give those that slip in reputation, through actions, a way to grind back?
If that is the "gist" I would say no. Don't we need a way back in case we want to change our ways and act in a more positive manner?
The situation has become a little confused because GW has added rep punishment for rude chat into the mix. I think that normally, rep penalty is not meant to punish griefing. "Other mysterious and capricious GW (hands on) punishments are normally promised for typical grief like behavior."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you mean: Does it seem redundant to give those that slip in reputation, through actions, a way to grind back?
No. Rebuilding reputation points is the way to recover from rep loss from potentially toxic attacks because reputation is the mechanic defined to deal with that part of the game.
In addition to rep loss, CE shifts are tied to potentially toxic attacks and heavy suckage is tied to CE (regardless if you got CE through serial killing or selected for rp decision). Redundant? Punitive to players that haven't done wrong to support that redundancy?
DeciusBrutus mentioned that if characters are grinding their alignment out the the CE suckage they can't be murdering at the same time. While technically true I asked if it is illogical to apply penalties to a trait that doesn't necessarily mean you did anything wrong (CE) when you're already applying penalties to the trait that means you definitely did something wrong (low rep).
If reputation, the mechanic defined as measuring player behavior, by itself isn't enough to deal with undesired behavior? I'm in the camp that says give low reputation bigger teeth rather than drag a separate trait into the mix causing players who haven't done anything wrong to get caught up in those punitive elements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How bad do you envision CE being if you have fairly moderate or better rep at the same time?
I'm not sure how bad but Ryan posted that it is a design goal to make all CE not fun for anyone. I wholeheartedly agree the game shouldn't be any fun for serial killers (low rep) but I disagree with him that the CE label on a character sheet should have anything to do with that particular equation.
If you choose to start CE, why do you need to "grind" up out of it? In the case of a change of heart?
In the current iteration, the most likely reason anyone would start CE is because they didn't know it's being designed to suck, and then have to grind active alignment out of it to switch their core, but all of that only to avoid unfavorable game mechanics. All the same bad behavior can still happen, and those players will still get the penalties that come with being toxically murderous hooligans with low rep, our alignments will functionally be just another piece of gear we put on to get a certain mathematical affect.
If I was going to bet $10 I'd say after the "best" alignments are tested out 80% of the population is sardined up on the alignment grid- the MMO players who pick for best advantage and even most rp'ers who got practical and just meta game the alignment they wanted to be. It becomes etiquette that the first thing you list on your bio sheet is your "real" alignment. There's still plenty of evil actions in the world but given good enough odds I'd take Cores set to LG for ACE types and LN for combat types.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not certain that just being CE will suck that much in and of itself:
You'll have to find a Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil Settlement that is actively trying to keep their rep high enough to compete with other Settlements which means that de facto you'll be playing with and like less chaotic and less evil characters - the whole Settlement may be playing in ways that tend to drift their alignment away from Chaotic Evil.
So if the Settlement is well managed, you will likely have access to a fairly broad range of character abilities, but still not the absolute most exotic. That may or may not matter materially.
If you want to play your Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly, you'll probably not be able to remain a part of that Settlement - they'll boot you to protect their own Development Index.
Now that ^^^ coupled with the fact that there are some actions that can give you evil gain (i.e. killing) and chaotic gain (i.e. law breaking) without rep penalties, you have an advantage to PVP that some alignments need to manage better. You have an advantage there.
So if you do role CE AND manage to maintain a decent rep, maybe it is not as bad as you believe it will be?
What you need to advocate for could be more fun stuff that is C and E which is looked at as valuable enough to not be rep penalizing. As that seems like a contradictory statement (to my small imagination), I will leave that to you and others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to play your Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly, you'll probably not be able to remain a part of that Settlement - they'll boot you to protect their own Development Index.
I understand low rep will hurt settlements and that's well deserved. But I've apparently missed the explanation of how an alignment label gradually degrades the settlement's DI from the character sheet. I predict someone will talk about corruption and unrest, but again I thought those are influenced by actions not character sheet labels.
the fact that there are some actions that can give you evil gain (i.e. killing)
Not if you stay within the structures of contract, feud, SAD rejection, war, or faction as far as I know. And aren't we all supposed to stay within those structures to avoid adding toxicity to the game? Why would anyone assert killing outside the structures and adding toxicity to the game is an appropriate balancing tool?
Capricious killing does create an advantage over characters that only pvp within the structures, and that's what the penalties incurred by low rep are balancing.
Core alignment and Drift was invented after the big worry most actions would lead a majority of players inexorably towards LG, so I reject the proposition a few broken settlement laws are a great advantage in the face of that anticipated oncoming storm.
What you need to advocate for could be more fun stuff that is C and E which is looked at as valuable enough to not be rep penalizing.
Avoiding feelings of helplessness, unfairness, defeatism, and other toxicity to the game environment, check! I even started listing actionable conditions for just that in another thread and that was the point in time Ryan posted the game is being purposely designed so CE will not be fun for anyone (mechanical suckage is the only method we've been given). I have answered a request to list some weapony, pvp-ish examples of CE in the Evil Interest post (#97, not sure how to link the specific post)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you mean: Does it seem redundant to give those that slip in reputation, through actions, a way to grind back?No. Rebuilding reputation points is the way to recover from rep loss from potentially toxic attacks because reputation is the mechanic defined to deal with that part of the game.
In addition to rep loss, CE shifts are tied to potentially toxic attacks and heavy suckage is tied to CE (regardless if you got CE through serial killing or selected for rp decision). Redundant? Punitive to players that haven't done wrong to support that redundancy?
Question: Is it reprehensible to ally yourself with those who did perform toxic acts that propelled them into suckage? Is there cause to enact laws against aiding and abetting criminal behavior?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you mean: Does it seem redundant to give those that slip in reputation, through actions, a way to grind back?No. Rebuilding reputation points is the way to recover from rep loss from potentially toxic attacks because reputation is the mechanic defined to deal with that part of the game.
In addition to rep loss, CE shifts are tied to potentially toxic attacks and heavy suckage is tied to CE (regardless if you got CE through serial killing or selected for rp decision). Redundant? Punitive to players that haven't done wrong to support that redundancy?
Question: Is it reprehensible to ally yourself with those who did perform toxic acts that propelled them into suckage? Is there cause to enact laws against aiding and abetting criminal behavior?
As long as alignment can be set (core alignment) there is no way to tell how someone ended up with the alignment they have.
Associating with someone that has a set alignment, makes you no more guilty of any wrongdoing than they have for setting that alignment.
Perhaps GW should remove Core Alignment completely and just have Active Alignment?
That may more naturally funnel all similarly aligned characters together, and you would trust that that was their true role play style.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to play your Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly, you'll probably not be able to remain a part of that Settlement - they'll boot you to protect their own Development Index.I understand low rep will hurt settlements and that's well deserved. But I've apparently missed the explanation of how an alignment label gradually degrades the settlement's DI from the character sheet. I predict someone will talk about corruption and unrest, but again I thought those are influenced by actions not character sheet labels.
It's not the Alignment label (Chaotic Evil) that degrades the Settlement's DI, it's the Low Reputation. Ryan also said "probably", because it's not a hard link. The reason that Chaotic Evil is frequently described as having the same downsides as Low Reputation is very, very simple and has been explained over and over:
The actions that move you towards Chaotic and Evil also lower your Reputation. Most of the Characters who end up Chaotic Evil will also be Low Reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to play your Chaotic Evil character Chaotically and Evilly, you'll probably not be able to remain a part of that Settlement - they'll boot you to protect their own Development Index.I understand low rep will hurt settlements and that's well deserved. But I've apparently missed the explanation of how an alignment label gradually degrades the settlement's DI from the character sheet. I predict someone will talk about corruption and unrest, but again I thought those are influenced by actions not character sheet labels.It's not the Alignment label (Chaotic Evil) that degrades the Settlement's DI, it's the Low Reputation. Ryan also said "probably", because it's not a hard link. The reason that Chaotic Evil is frequently described as having the same downsides as Low Reputation is very, very simple and has been explained over and over:
The actions that move you towards Chaotic and Evil also lower your Reputation. Most of the Characters who end up Chaotic Evil will also be Low Reputation.
The issue keeps on coming up and clarification requests and confusion still remain because three things have not been said by the Devs or Ryan in particular.
1. We are not designing the system to automatically make any alignment suck or be an "I Win" button.
2. We encourage all players, regardless of alignment to play within the sanctioned or desired ways that GW has set forth. If you follow those guidelines, you will have an enjoyable gaming experience in PFO. If you play outside of those guidelines your character will lose reputation and will eventually suck to play.
3. Alignments are designed to be equitable, but perhaps not equally. There will be meaningful differences between playing those alignments and done will be advantaged in cetera in areas, that others may not be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The issue keeps on coming up and clarification requests and confusion still remain because three things have not been said by the Devs or Ryan in particular.
Ryan has been clear on at least the first two, and possibly on the third.
1. The developers are explicitly and openly designing the system to make one of the nine alignments really suck.2. The developers are providing clear feedback loops that will encourage play within the game's guidelines. The developer cannot promise every player will enjoy the game as that really isn't something in their control, but in the player's.
3. I think Ryan said they are not designing the alignments to be equal and that is okay by Ryan. Equability... arguable. It may be worth it to someone to consign themselves to a sucky doom for the sack of behaving chaotic-stupid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps some missed this bit from Ryan in the other thread.
[ ] - you appear to be proceeding from a false premise. I have no intention of making a game where people who want to play Chaotic Evil characters will be happy with their experience. One of the design goals of this game is not "Let people play every alignment option in rough balance with all the others". In fact the exact opposite is true: we're intentionally and publicly stating we have a bias and we'll intentionally sacrifice an alignment for the purpose of overall community quality.
Now, perhaps there is wiggle room. Perhaps a player can label his character CE and carefully play the character to avoid those acts that cause chaos and rep hits, and avoid those acts that cause evil and rep hits. But I think Ryan's statement is pretty firm. Making CE an enjoyable experience or making CE in rough balance with other alignments doesn't appear to be a design goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EDIT given aboves post that quote ryan.
unless they make it so that mechanically when you are CE you get extra penalties. So basically they artificially make CE worse than others for both CE characters and CE settlements.
being a CE character will not cause your character to suck. Be CE join a NE or CN settlement. Play like other people and enjoy all the benefits everyone else does which includes high rep and access to advanced settlements (if you are part of such an organization).
The reason why a lot of CE folks will be the kind we are talking about is because they will do things that cause chaotic and evil alignment shifts AND actions that result in many reputation hits (resulting in very low reputation).
Basically there will be two classes of CE, the CE folks that if they were any other evil alignment you couldnt tell, and the folks who go around randomly killing characters without regard to the consequences.
EDIT given aboves post that quotes ryan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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unless they make it so that mechanically when you are CE you get extra penalties. So basically they artificially make CE worse than others for both CE characters and CE settlements.
Agreed. I think we've been told that CE settlements will be worse. I don't think we've ever been told that CE characters will have mechanical penalties.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm not sure I understand what it means to say a particular alignment is less viable to playPlayers making the choice to use the character they are on to engage in a murder simulator (an illegitimate action) is being tied to a specific character alignment (legitimate decision). It's being assumed everyone with that alignment on their character sheet did the illegitimate actions to get there. Consequently the alignment as a whole is purposely being made not fun and full of suck, regardless if an individual player actually did the illegitimate actions with that character or not, i.e the alignment is less viable to play.
That sounds to me like "Any character that isn't as powerful is less viable to play. Given that we started with a roleplaying decision to do things for reasons other than Maximum Power, I don't see how you can expect to be on the same power level as characters that do.
In tabletop, the equivalent would be taking the Feat skill focus:Perform:Oratory. (While it is a choice that maximizes one aspect of one character's power, there exist other characters that are in general more powerful)