Recently one of my Cavalier players had an idea while fighting a Hungry Fog on his mount. He wanted to use TWF to swing with his Bastard sword (has EWP) in his off-hand, drop it as a free action, then two-hand his Lance for his next two attacks.
I said no on the grounds that it reeked of cheese to me, and that I believe you must (or were at least meant to by the devs) have two weapons/double weapon in your hands to get the extra attacks allowed. But I started thinking about it, and wanted to get the opinions of more experienced players and GMs. So what do people think?
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If he has a BAB of +6 or higher he could (presuming he started combat holding each weapon in one hand) swing his sword, drop it as a free action, grip his lance with both hands as a free action, and make his second attack. This would be akin to making one attack with the lance, performing a five foot step, and then bashing with armor spikes.
He cannot, however, "two-weapon fight" in the way he wants.
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If he has a BAB of +6 or higher he could (presuming he started combat holding each weapon in one hand) swing his sword, drop it as a free action, grip his lance with both hands as a free action, and make his second attack. This would be akin to making one attack with the lance, performing a five foot step, and then bashing with armor spikes.
He cannot, however, "two-weapon fight" in the way he wants.
Could you elaborate on this? I'd like to be fair about it, but his frequent "Innovative" ideas begin to grate, and it gets hard to separate the actual creative ideas, from the Munchkin-y cheese.
I believe what Nefreet is saying is that if he had iterative attacks from having a BAB of greater than +6 (ie +6/+1 or more) and he began with the BS in one hand and the lance in the other he could do what is suggested by dropping the BS as a free action and Regripping the lance as a free action, but he could not gain the additional attack provided by "two-weapon" fighting as per the combat rules.
Personally I wouldn't allow it if I was GM. If he wants to swing his BS one handed then by all means, but I feel that this player is trying to use inventive ways to circumvent rules as intended for extra power. I of course don't know your player so this is just a general observation.
I believe what Nefreet is saying is that if he had iterative attacks from having a BAB of greater than +6 (ie +6/+1 or more) and he began with the BS in one hand and the lance in the other he could do what is suggested by dropping the BS as a free action and Regripping the lance as a free action, but he could not gain the additional attack provided by "two-weapon" fighting as per the combat rules.
Personally I wouldn't allow it if I was GM. If he wants to swing his BS one handed then by all means, but I feel that this player is trying to use inventive ways to circumvent rules as intended for extra power. I of course don't know your player so this is just a general observation.
He finds "creative" things to do with skills and feats a lot. I'm just happy he thinks spell casters are too complex for now.
If it would help, the party is at level 7, and he was mounted at the time.
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I don't really see this as any different that using a Greatsword and then using TWF to make an attack with Armor Spikes. Except that you're using the same "hand" twice. I suppose that's a reason to not allow it.
In that case, it's no different than using a Greatsword then trying to use TWF to make an attack with a spiked gauntlet. If you would allow that, then allow the lance thing. If you wouldn't, then don't.
So, what if he does just drop the BS (too fitting a shorthand) before using the lance? does he still get three attacks? He has TWF. On the greatsword idea, I would say no to it personally, on the same cheese grounds as before. But is there RAW outlining it either way?
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Two-weapon fighting is not just based on using two weapons. It also has to involve two different 'hands' for each attack. Now, 'hands' could be defined many ways:
- right hand attack and left hand attack
- right hand attack and left foot attack
- left hand attack and right foot attack
- left hand attack and head butt (ala IUS)
- etc
Now, as Tarkeighas commented, if the Cavalier had and iterative attack, have could use a bastard sword and lance in the same round. For example, if he had a BAB of +6, he could use the +6 attack with his two-handed bastard sword, drop it, quickdraw a lance, and then use the +1 attack with the lance. However, this is not two-weapon fighting, so he does not gain the extra 'off-hand' attack.
In the Core rulebook FAQ, Paizo has specifically stated that a two-handed weapon cannot be used with two-weapon fighting. If you want to allow two-handed weapons to be used in two-weapon fighting, then you are in the realm of house rules.
EDIT:
If he is using the Bastard Sword and Lance mounted, then by RAW, he can use two-weapon fighting (keep in mind that a lance has reach and the sword does not though). I personally find this to be unrealistic and uber-cheesy, so at my table I would disallow it. If he still pushed it, I would add a -4 To hit for each attack due to the unwieldy nature of the weapon combination.
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In the Core rulebook FAQ, Paizo has specifically stated that a two-handed weapon cannot be used with two-weapon fighting. If you want to allow two-handed weapons to be used in two-weapon fighting, then you are in the realm of house rules.
Hmmm... News to me. Learned something today. Linky, since it wasn't provided by RedDogMT. I, for one, will continue to allow it in my home games.
I appreciate the clarifications, I felt I had the right of it by RAW, and RAI. I just need to figure out how to rule him charging after a 5-foot step back, so he could charge the fog that had engulfed him.
As BBT says. Charge is a full round action. 5ft step is a move action. Not to mention that you need to move at least 10 feet to charge.
One or the other
Well, that's a kick in the nuts for him. =)
Any other 'creative' actions we can help dispel? :)
I'll let you guys know. Believe me, I'll be back. Thanks for the help, everyone.
5ft step is a move action.Cite please. My CRB lists 5-foot step as a free action that can be taken once per round if you make no other movement. You can certainly stand up (a move action), take a 5ft. step, and attack (a standard action) all in the same turn. This isn't 4th edition.
Yeah the board ate a much bigger post and in my frustration my summary follow up post didn't come out as intended. I didn't even notice until you pointed it out.
Originally I wrote that 5ft step was a free action if you don't take a move action. Charge is a special full round action that includes a minimum move component and can't be made in conjunction with the 5ft step.
Apologies for the confusion.