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If someone has training in hanbdling animals yes, Lormyr. They maybe be able to give commands to your dog.
If ceaser milan comes and tells your dog down. I could see that dog obeying.
Now I would never allow someone to sick their animal companion after their owner, but I could definiately allow them to tell the animal down.
It is a trained only skill and if you are going ot put ranks in it you can definately use it to give commands to animals.
Now if some guy buys this trained tiger he had for a day and someone else has TRAINING on how to handle animals. Well that could be a very confusing situation for that animal.
Thanks Mr. Morris.
I disagree. At least as far as dogs are concerned, they are only going to obey commands from someone who has established themselves as the Alpha. Watch Caesar Milan work. First thing he does after talking to the owners is he goes and establishes that he is the Alpha. He may spend hours doing just that because no dog is going to obey his commands until he does that. Establishing that you are the Alpha is not something you can really do in combat.
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Again I would argue that is because he is unaware of the training of the animals and he does not want to take a chance.
An animal that is used to being commanded is much easier to command.
If you know it, sure. If not, not so much. Unless you want to try to tell me EVERY combat animal ever had the exclusive trick.
If you have rules lawyered your way to the position that a dc 10 handle animal check is better than a 3rd level druid spell for controlling an animal you have gone off the reservation.
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Again I would argue that is because he is unaware of the training of the animals and he does not want to take a chance.
An animal that is used to being commanded is much easier to command.
If you know it, sure. If not, not so much. Unless you want to try to tell me EVERY combat animal ever had the exclusive trick.
If you have rules lawyered your way to the position that a dc 10 handle animal check is better than a 3rd level druid spell for controlling an animal you have gone off the reservation.
I am not saying you can control, charm, or dominate the animal
I am saying you can trigger tricks it was taught to do.
It is not for wild animals, or magical beasts.
When you lie and cheat what I say to include things well beyond what I offered ofcourse I look in error. There is a huge difference between dominate animal and trigging activated commands and animal is trained to obey.
I would rule the PCs do not know the DCs or the tricks it has.
If the player wants to gamble and try to see. Well They can take that chance, and I will reward if they gamble correctly.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I disagree. At least as far as dogs are concerned, they are only going to obey commands from someone who has established themselves as the Alpha. Watch Caesar Milan work. First thing he does after talking to the owners is he goes and establishes that he is the Alpha. He may spend hours doing just that because no dog is going to obey his commands until he does that. Establishing that you are the Alpha is not something you can really do in combat.
That is where all of this breaks down for me.
Establishing that you are the alpha, under the current system is either something that is included in the 6 second HA(push) check, or it is something that simply cannot be done unless you are a druid. (Depending on how you read the rules.)
Ascribing level dips in caster classes to real world figures to explain what they are doing is an auto fail to the arguement in my opinion. If wild empathy was a feat that anyone could take, and druids get it for free, I would concede your point, but it is something unique to druids and only they can learn it.
A more reasonable reading is that HA is a highly cinematic system where you can establish dominance as part of the push check.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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"No dog will do X" arguements fail as well, because not even Ceasar Milan can spend 2 minutes with a friendly but untrained dog and get it to do back flips and sing. So not even Ceasar Milan can do what HA says anyone with a single rank in the skill, a 12 or higher charisma, and a class skill can do.
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When you lie and cheat what I say to include things well beyond what I offered ofcourse I look in error.
No, when I point out what you say you look to be in error because you are in error.
I am not saying you can control, charm, or dominate the animal I am saying you can trigger tricks it was taught to do.
Yes, you are. There is no functional difference between between having an animal under a charm spell so you can use handle animal to command it to attack people and being able to use handle animal to command it to attack people.
When you can tell the animal to attack who you want it to attack, leave the combat you want it to leave and throw off its rider you want it thrown off with an unmissable handle animal check
If you're going to call me out for lying point out demonstrate the genuine difference between having the animal charmed and the ability to give it commands.
It is not for wild animals, or magical beasts.
And why not? Raw doesn't make that distinction. Thats what you're going with right?
If the player wants to gamble and try to see. Well They can take that chance, and I will reward if they gamble correctly.
Theres no gamble. Combat trained animals come with a set of tricks and almost always have attack. You make a dc 10 check and tell it to attack the guy in the back.
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I think you are wrong. We will have to agree to disagree then.If you cannot tell me the difference between what you're suggesting and a charmed animal then you owe me an apology.
I owe you nothing. I find your arguements offensive and I decided to stop debating with you. If you are unable to read my arguements above then I have nothign else to say to you.
Now what is the rational for this? The animal probably knows the down trick. You're relying on raw here, so why would up the DC by 15?However, it wouldn't be a DC 10. It would be a push attempt at DC 25.
A few things:
1) Animals are not automations that will do anything that they are programmed (trick) do. They have some intelligence, likes and dislikes. Handle Animal is not a magic word to overcome all of that.2) With the attack trick, the animal will attack apparent enemies - which would exclude most party members (so don't abuse party members animals).
3) With the attack trick, the animal will not attack creatures like undead and aberrations. So the owner/handler will need to push them for them to do so (unless the attack trick is taken twice). To me, that indicates that even with the attack trick, there are times when the owner/handler will need to push the animal.
4) A skill check that is easy to pass (take 10 will work unless you have -2 or worse charisma modifier) should not be more powerful than a third level druid only spell.
5) Charm Animal will make the animal friendly to the caster, thus the animal will not attack them unless the owner pushes the animal (a full round action for non-druids and rangers, and a move action for them). I suspect that it will take more than one round for the owner to push the animal to attack a spell created friend (unless the owner passed a spellcraft check and realized what spell was cast on the animal) as they would spend a move action to order the attack, and next round have to take a full round action to push the animal to attack.
There is most of my rational for why I believe that people making handle animal checks to order an opponent's animal requires the animal to be pushed, hence needed a DC 25 handle animal check. And for them, it would be a full round action. And the animal still only executes the order on it's turn - and that order may be overridden by the owner if their turn comes before the animal (and it is a move action for them to order the animal execute a trick).
If I had a character with the handle animal skill that could not contribute to combat on one turn, I would consider using a full round action to order an opponent's animal to flee, especially if fleeing for even one round would put them out of the fight (jumping down a ledge, running out a room and a team mate closes the door, etc..) - not only would it fit better with my world/PFS view (without magic, I have trouble seeing an animal turn on it's owner like that) and likely to have less issues with players and GMs than having arguments about exactly what the skill can do -i.e. if the animal would turn on it's owner.
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Mist,
you're making my argument but somewhere come out at the other conclusion.
If the animal is not an automaton why is it going to accept commands from people it doesn't know or like, at all? Why is it going to leave the person it (probably) likes in danger because someone told it to go jump down a well?
5) Charm Animal will make the animal friendly to the caster, thus the animal will not attack them unless the owner pushes the animal[/url]
This isn't a data point its kind of a supposition. There is no "attack creature you're friendly too anyway" trick to push here. If the animal is charmed its not going to attack, at all.
Mist,
you're making my argument but somewhere come out at the other conclusion.
If the animal is not an automaton why is it going to accept commands from people it doesn't know or like, at all? Why is it going to leave the person it (probably) likes in danger because someone told it to go jump down a well?
5) Charm Animal will make the animal friendly to the caster, thus the animal will not attack them unless the owner pushes the animalThis isn't a data point its kind of a supposition. There is no "attack creature you're friendly too anyway" trick to push here. If the animal is charmed its not going to attack, at all.
I cleaned up the quotes above to what I think that they were supposed to be - let me know if I got it wrong.
I have always agreed with you that handle animal should not be more powerful than a 3rd level druid spell.
I think that we differ on whether a DC 10 handle animal check will allow for the non-owner to command the animal, and even have it attack the owner.
I view any non-owner trying to command an animal needing to push the animal to get it to do the trick or task, needing a full round DC 25 handle animal check.
If the animal has been charmed, then I can see the DC dropping to a move action DC 10 for most tricks, but would still need to push to get the animal to attack another friendly creature or it's owner.
While there is no "attack creature that you're friendly too anyways" (nor is a go first along the ledge over lava, or use non-lethal damage, or many other activities), I would say that that is covered under pushing an animal, that is "To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that is doesn't know but is physically able to do".
In my interpretation, push is used to get animals to do all kinds of things that are not listed in the rules, as there would not be enough room in the book to cover all of the possible uses of handle animal.
To take another tack, BigNorseWolf, if you use my interpretation, does most of the issues that you are having with handle animal disappear (or at least lessened to a significant degree)?
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o take another tack, BigNorseWolf, if you use my interpretation, does most of the issues that you are having with handle animal disappear (or at least lessened to a significant degree)?
No, because you're still making a full round DC 25 handle animal check better than a 10 round DC ~35 wild empathy check
If the animal obeys your down command its functionally going from hostile to at LEAST indifferent, more likely friendly (because its ignoring his friend telling him what to do for you).
For a wild empathy check against a hostile creature is 25 + its cha mod and you need to beat the DC by 5 to move it each additional step, so to get it unfriendly you need 25, to get it indifferent you need a 30, and to get it to be friendly you need a 35.. but you can't move it more than 2 steps , so even that 35 is impossible with a bonafide class feature thats far harder to raise than a skill.
o take another tack, BigNorseWolf, if you use my interpretation, does most of the issues that you are having with handle animal disappear (or at least lessened to a significant degree)?No, because you're still making a full round DC 25 handle animal check better than a 10 round DC ~35 wild empathy check
If the animal obeys your down command its functionally going from hostile to at LEAST indifferent, more likely friendly (because its ignoring his friend telling him what to do for you).
For a wild empathy check against a hostile creature is 25 + its cha mod and you need to beat the DC by 5 to move it each additional step, so to get it unfriendly you need 25, to get it indifferent you need a 30, and to get it to be friendly you need a 35.. but you can't move it more than 2 steps , so even that 35 is impossible with a bonafide class feature thats far harder to raise than a skill.
You seem to be giving handle animal more power/function that what I read into the skill. Nowhere does it state that handle animal acts like diplomacy for animals (as it does with wild empathy). Nor does it state that the animal has to be friendly for the animal to obey the order.
Handle animal allows you to give the animal orders that will likely be obeyed - as the animal is used to obeying order (for trained animals) or orders giving in an alpha manner (for both wild and domesticated animals). You aren't making them friends.
They aren't ignoring its owner/friend, it is simply obeying the last order that it received - which can be changed by the owner, perhaps before it has a chance to obey the order from the skill user.
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You seem to be giving handle animal more power/function that what I read into the skill. Nowhere does it state that handle animal acts like diplomacy for animals (as it does with wild empathy).
Its not how I'm reading it. How I'm reading it is if the animal isn't at least indifferent its not going to listen to you.
Handle animal allows you to give the animal orders that will likely be obeyed - as the animal is used to obeying order (for trained animals) or orders giving in an alpha manner (for both wild and domesticated animals). You aren't making them friends.
What is the functional difference between "I like you I won't attack you" and "I will listen your command to leave the combat" or "I will obey your command to sit" ?
They aren't ignoring its owner/friend, it is simply obeying the last order that it received - which can be changed by the owner, perhaps before it has a chance to obey the order from the skill user.
There's no rules for opposing handle animal checks, or a lifo rule, or....
The only downside to the idea that the animal has to at least be indifferent to you to take commands is that its not explicitly spelled out. With what you're suggesting you have to a whole other group of assumptions that aren't spelled out either.