I sat down and read it cover to cover when I was about 15, and I slowly backed away from the religion shortly thereafter.
They say that the #1 major that produces more atheists than any other isn't physics, but theology.
I am not certain how mocking someone else's beliefs is helping you fight against someone else who is forcing something on you. Seems to me that type of behavior is equal to the same people who are forcing their beliefs down someone else's throat. Doesn't seem too productive to me.I might be an oddball, but personally I alays appreciate it, when I state some belief (taking myself too seriously as usual) and Mrs Gersen makes fun of it, to shock me into (a) thinking about it more objectively and (b) stop being so full of myself. Others might see that as an "attack" and respond defensively, but I've learned that when people do that to me, I'm usually better off if I stop and listen.
My wife does the exact same thing.
My wife does the exact same thing.I am not certain how mocking someone else's beliefs is helping you fight against someone else who is forcing something on you. Seems to me that type of behavior is equal to the same people who are forcing their beliefs down someone else's throat. Doesn't seem too productive to me.I might be an oddball, but personally I alays appreciate it, when I state some belief (taking myself too seriously as usual) and Mrs Gersen makes fun of it, to shock me into (a) thinking about it more objectively and (b) stop being so full of myself. Others might see that as an "attack" and respond defensively, but I've learned that when people do that to me, I'm usually better off if I stop and listen.
It is very different when someone you know calls you out than when someone you have never met or talked to before tries to do it.
Oh no, there are plenty of times when I'm less than okay with it. But I do know where she is coming from is all I'm saying.
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Well, considering most of these displays are temporary (like a nativity scene which is put up for ~ 2 months in a median the size of my cube at work in front of a church), I don't consider them significantly different than other event permits.
Be honest, what are the chances of non christians getting to use that same slot? Are there really not enough privately owned areas the size of a cubicle that can put up a nativity scene so that the government has to do it?
That being said, I'm really currious how the national parks can get away with christmass trees.
Well they're certainly not going to cut them down every year...
More seriously, its like easter eggs. Its a custom who's religious origins go so far back they've become cultural rather than religious.
A northern conifer with lights on it being hung up in the winter----> something happens-----> therefore jesus.
The connection is more than a bit loose.
I would like to take this time to point out that my home town is the headquarters of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and in our state capitol we erected a Festivus Pole (made of used beer cans no less!) alongside the xmas tree to make a right jolly mockery of the whole affair.How very droll. You must be very proud. Nothing like making fun of someone else's beliefs. Aren't you doing the same thing you are fighting against? I am not certain how mocking someone else's beliefs is helping you fight against someone else who is forcing something on you. Seems to me that type of behavior is equal to the same people who are forcing their beliefs down someone else's throat. Doesn't seem too productive to me. But glad you told us about it.
So you are saying that literally any response to having religion forced upon you, other than silent submission, is itself as bad as the forcing?
Poppycock. Entertain yourself with these delusions of false equivalence as much as you like, but the rational among us see the obvious difference as plainly as we see a difference between premeditated murder and self defense.
The complainer is always wrong!
They obviously missed this bit in their non-stop reading of scripture...I think I've met a total of two who have ever actually even opened a Bible -- those two were into the whole Bible study thing, and were also the least obnoxious and most accepting of non-Christians I've met. Coincidence?
Not at all. I've found people who read regularly tend to be broader minded than those that don't. The "non-stop reading" was meant ironically. Most thumpers I know don't actually read it, they just find and memorize the passages that best support their bigotry and intolerance.
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I would like to take this time to point out that my home town is the headquarters of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and in our state capitol we erected a Festivus Pole (made of used beer cans no less!) alongside the xmas tree to make a right jolly mockery of the whole affair.How very droll. You must be very proud. Nothing like making fun of someone else's beliefs. Aren't you doing the same thing you are fighting against? I am not certain how mocking someone else's beliefs is helping you fight against someone else who is forcing something on you. Seems to me that type of behavior is equal to the same people who are forcing their beliefs down someone else's throat. Doesn't seem too productive to me. But glad you told us about it.So you are saying that literally any response to having religion forced upon you, other than silent submission, is itself as bad as the forcing?
Poppycock. Entertain yourself with these delusions of false equivalence as much as you like, but the rational among us see the obvious difference as plainly as we see a difference between premeditated murder and self defense.
Nope not the point I made at all in fact. The point I was making is that it is not too productive to help better things if you mock everyone who might celebrate Christmas if you are trying to be treated more fairly. You mentioned you erected a festivus pole next to the Christmas tree not because you were looking to celebrate something but strictly for the purpose of mocking someone else's celebration. I felt it did not seem productive to an open discourse if you want to change something. Only really seeks to further cause more problems, doesn't seem you want to seek a solution but by mocking you seek to antagonize which is never productive.
I am confused how murder made it's way into the conversation or that you had to be silent about anything. Speak your peace I think there are much more productive means of getting your point across rather than mocking someone else. My personal opinion which I spoke up about and in turn you choose to mock me rather than use an open discourse your choose of course. Not what I would choose to do if I wanted to fix the problem or try to understand the other side of the coin. good luck to you.
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I am not certain how mocking someone else's beliefs is helping you fight against someone else who is forcing something on you. Seems to me that type of behavior is equal to the same people who are forcing their beliefs down someone else's throat. Doesn't seem too productive to me.I might be an oddball, but personally I alays appreciate it, when I state some belief (taking myself too seriously as usual) and Mrs Gersen makes fun of it, to shock me into (a) thinking about it more objectively and (b) stop being so full of myself. Others might see that as an "attack" and respond defensively, but I've learned that when people do that to me, I'm usually better off if I stop and listen.
Kirth I think there is a big difference between not taking yourself too seriously and openly mocking someone's beliefs. I personally think you should try to enter into a discourse with an open mind even if the other side is not open to attempt to bring a resolution to the problem. I find my wife and I do the same to one another when we get on our own high horses and need to be brought down a peg. It is healthy to do that. But let me ask you would you do that to someone who you did not know very well? Would you want someone who you did not know very well to do it to you? I my guess is no. My guess is that it is much safer when someone whom you know and trust does that. Easier to sooth hurt feelings too when you know the kidding is coming from a good place. Not so sure the open mocking that was mentioned comes from a "good place"
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Does your wife's reasoning often include invisible leprechauns?
Well, considering most of these displays are temporary (like a nativity scene which is put up for ~ 2 months in a median the size of my cube at work in front of a church), I don't consider them significantly different than other event permits.Be honest, what are the chances of non christians getting to use that same slot? Are there really not enough privately owned areas the size of a cubicle that can put up a nativity scene so that the government has to do it?
That spot, its unlikely. I have seen a few artists use it in the summer, but the fact that it is at the intersection of 3 churches makes them the likely to use it. And no, unless they want to block the sidewalks there isn't much space with a 2-3 block radius of the churches not in use. There are plenty of other spaces in the city that get used as well.
One big reason that churches use spaces like this more than other groups is that there are more church organizations in the city than other organized communities. Besides the Veterans Association, the Boys & Girls club, and the boat club, I can't think of anything that competes with a church, and those are not mutually exclusive organizations.
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Seriously, you need a nativity scene every 3 blocks? Were the three churches touching each other simply not enough religion for the area so we need government help to cram in more?
Does your wife's reasoning often include invisible leprechauns?
My wife says there is a little gnome in her head that edits her speech patterns so she doesn't say anything offensive, belittling or stupid. However, the gnome speaks Dutch, so she ends up putting her foot in her mouth anyway.
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I personally think you should try to enter into a discourse with an open mind even if the other side is not open to attempt to bring a resolution to the problem.
I totally agree. Sadly, though, many people use "have an open mind" as doublespeak for "shut up and believe what I'm telling you." And it's deceptively easy to get into that mind-set, when 80% of the population is busy convincing each other that eveyone in the remaining 20% is either misguided (at best), immoral, insane, evil (at worst), a terrorist (to be hyperbolic), or some combination of the above. With that kind of weight of opinion, it's very easy to "pooh-pooh" the remainder and assume their serious complaints have no meaning. At that point, sometimes mockery may be the only dissenting response left.
Let me be quick to add that I can hold a person in great respect (as I do you), but still disagree with certain of their views (as seems to be the case here). And that mockery of an idea is not the same as mockery of the person holding that idea -- the former is acceptable, whereas the latter should not ever be. Which of course leads to:
But let me ask you would you do that to someone who you did not know very well? Would you want someone who you did not know very well to do it to you? I my guess is no.
Oddly enough, you'd be guessing incorrectly. I'm a scientist. Our job is to tear holes in each other's reasoning in order to expose faulty inferences. We're trained to respect that approach, rather than to resent it, but again, the whole thing hinges on people attacking flaws in reasoning, rather than resorting to ad hominim attacks that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. Which is why it's especially frustrating when one questions a religious "truth" and, instead of getting a reply about said truth, gets a comment like "well, you're just immoral and dishonest for not believing as I do."
Seriously, you need a nativity scene every 3 blocks? Were the three churches touching each other simply not enough religion for the area so we need government help to cram in more?
No, there is 1 nativity scene at the intersection of 3 churches, but most of the churches do look for a place to put one, and there are probably 40 churches in the 3 mile by 1/2 mile strech of land that is Troy.
No, there is 1 nativity scene at the intersection of 3 churches, but most of the churches do look for a place to put one, and there are probably 40 churches in the 3 mile by 1/2 mile strech of land that is Troy.Seriously, you need a nativity scene every 3 blocks? Were the three churches touching each other simply not enough religion for the area so we need government help to cram in more?
And they can't go INSIDE one of the churches because.....?
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No, there is 1 nativity scene at the intersection of 3 churches, but most of the churches do look for a place to put one, and there are probably 40 churches in the 3 mile by 1/2 mile strech of land that is Troy.Seriously, you need a nativity scene every 3 blocks? Were the three churches touching each other simply not enough religion for the area so we need government help to cram in more?
*shudder*
You know, I think that spot needs a good ol' fashioned statue. I have just the right design in mind. ;-)
And they can't go INSIDE one of the churches because.....?No, there is 1 nativity scene at the intersection of 3 churches, but most of the churches do look for a place to put one, and there are probably 40 churches in the 3 mile by 1/2 mile strech of land that is Troy.Seriously, you need a nativity scene every 3 blocks? Were the three churches touching each other simply not enough religion for the area so we need government help to cram in more?
My guess is that they do.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from speech. Religious organizations have just as much right to use public space and advocate their beliefs as everyone else. Preventing the churches from using the space but allowing others would be a worse infaction of the first ammendmend, IMO.
No, there is 1 nativity scene at the intersection of 3 churches, but most of the churches do look for a place to put one, and there are probably 40 churches in the 3 mile by 1/2 mile strech of land that is Troy.Seriously, you need a nativity scene every 3 blocks? Were the three churches touching each other simply not enough religion for the area so we need government help to cram in more?
*shudder*
You know, I think that spot needs a good ol' fashioned statue. I have just the right design in mind. ;-)
It would be a terrible place for a bench.
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Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from speech. Religious organizations have just as much right to use public space and advocate their beliefs as everyone else.
The problem is that they have far, far far MORE use of public space to advocate their beliefs than anyone else, and it comes accross as an endorsement of their view which if often, blatantly is. Case in point, the ten commandments went up but nothing else. The plot of land you mentioned is used by the churches for 2 months... does anyone ELSE get to book the land for 2 months strait?
Have you heard?
Agents: The devil made him do it; 10 Commandments smashed
Summary: A man claiming to be mentally ill allegedly shattered a stone copy of the Ten Commandments last week erected near Oklahoma City's Capitol. Though he told authorities that the devil made him do it, Satanists disapproved, after he ran his car into the controversial 6-foot-tall granite tablet of the Biblical edicts.
Come to think of it, Moses shattered them too, didn't he?
Yep, then he got them replaced. (Well, except for the third tablet with the last five of fifteen... those got forgotten about. It was simpler that way.)
These probably will be too. Replaced, I mean. No doubt the sponsoring church can afford it.
Where is "You shall not collect $200"?
"don't be a jerk" needs to be in there somewhere.
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Because of how my phone parsed this topic, I thought a satanist group was going to build a statue of baphomet outside of a COFFEE house.
I didn't know coffee was in the middle of the maze. Explains a lot, actually. ..