I was wondering about some different weapons than the normal ones. Also I was thinking about tools of a trade being used as weapons.
So what would you put the damage for a
Straight razor? I was thinking 1d3 18-20/x2 S or 1d4. maybe 1d3 18-20/x3.
Meat hook/hay hook? I was thinking 1d6/x3 P. maybe allowing to start a grapple on a hit or extra damage on a str check to pull the hook free.
Meat cleaver? I would say this is the “axe” version of the dagger so 1d4/x3 S.
Shovel? Maybe 1d8 or 1d10/x2 two-handed B,S, or P? I could make a case for all three.
Frying pan? 1d6/x2 or x3 B.
Scissor?
I know they’re rules for improvised weapons, but I see those rules for more like barstools, rocks, etc. Besides I’m ignoring those at the moment. I'm basiclly ignoring the penalities that would be here. I know how all that works.
What does everyone think? Damage ok? What would you change? What would you add?
Does anyone have any other weapons that are tools and tools that are weapons that they or their players have used?
Fizz
When I have players improvise weapons, I pick the damage of an appropriate real weapon (Razor becomes war razor, cleaver becomes handaxe, blunt objects become clubs, etc.), then slap the -4 nonproficiency penalty on it.
I like the rules. Especially the razor. It makes the improvised weapon wielder a bit more formidable for his 'weapons' to have special abilities. Cleaver is also nice. I need one of those. Can i have one?
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my 2 cp
Straight razor? 1d2 18-20/x2 and your normal razor counts as a small weapon. Medium sized version = 1d3 18-20/x2; war razor of course is 1d4.
Shovel? 1d6; 20/x3; two handed bludgeoning weapon.
Shovels are good improvised weapons but a little unwieldy. They function best as a club as they are not normally the sharpest tool in the shed.
Frying pan? 1d4; 20/x2; bludgeoning. If used with two hands it is 1d4; 20/x3. The handle of most frying pans is too short to allow it to be an effective weapon, and the weight is off on most of them. However, a really good two handed head shot with a heavy skillet is going to drop your average target.
Funny you should ask about frying pans, considering your name. As I recall, the frying pan was a weapon of choice at the Inn of the Last Home.
If you have the 'Dungeon' issue which featured the Swan Street Slicer (can't recall offhand which one--it was the adventure with the demented old lady- sometime in '06, I think), I believe there were numbers for the straight razor.
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I remember the frying pan in the inn of the last home, and I remember it doing 1d6 damage.
Regarding the 'tools' as weapons, the fact of the matter is that they're not ideally suited for use as weapons. They're certainly more suited than true improvised weapons - but there are definitely advantages to 'real' weapons.
For example,as someone who has used a cleaver for meat cutting, I know it works pretty well (cutting between the bones in pork ribs, for instance). But the handle is relatively short and hard to hold if you were to have a counter impact. You certainly couldn't parry with a cleaver the way you might with the much more solid handaxe.
So, try to avoid making them as good as, or even better than simple weapons.
For the shovel, it could probably do a d6 used as a 2-handed blugeoning weapon, x2 crit. If used as a slashing weapon, I'd reduce the damage one step (1d4). Although I remember being told how effective they were in 'All Quiet on the Western Front', they probably shouldn't be better than a shortsword.
I'd think the frying pan and cleaver should only have a crit multiplier of x2. The hay hook could certainly have a x3 crit (20/x3).
I'd still consider giving a penalty on attacks, but since the 'improvised weapons' are more suited for weapons, I would reduce the penalty to -2 instead of -4.
Maybe that should be a feature of certain classes (particularly fighter or assassin), that you can use improvised weapons with minimal or no penalties. Cuz you're just that bad, like the old thing about the deadly weapon secret agents being able to kill a dude with a credit card or a paper clip.
Or perhaps a feat, 'Tavern Barfighter', or something like that, that gives you proficiency with all improvised weapons. Or maybe one at a time.
Is 'Tavern Barfighter' not redunant?
I made a feat a while back that I called Ready Improvisor or something. It reduced the penalty for fighting with improvised weapons from -4 to -2.
Drunken Master.
That is one idea, but that is a prestige class. And yes, 'Tavern Barfighter' is redundant.
Do you want realism or entertainment? For my money, I would love to see a dwarf wielding a frying pan.
Grumbly the Cook
Even going for entertainment I would say your damages are way over the top. A shovel being the same if not better than a long sword? No way.
I do think your take on the cleaver is good though. Razors would do 1d2 crit on a 19. Scissors would be 1d3 crit on 20. Shovel would be 1d6 crit 20, probably bludgeoning, maybe slashing. If your piercing someone with a shovel, your putting A LOT of force behind it, and it would be increadable unweildy.
As is standard, just my take on things, your opinion may varry.
Just a warning on the straight razor- don't even think of doing a 1d3/18-20X3 stat for it. This would soon spell trouble with a keen razor and extra crit range damage. I have players that would love to have this even at 1-2hp of damage. It would get ugly, believe me.
Take a look at Dragon Issue #331, in 'The Point of Pole Arms'. The Talenta Sharrash (an exotic weapon)costs a mere 18 gold, deals as a medium weapon 1d10 damage, which is nothing to sneeze at, and has a critical of 19-20/x4. Not to mention that it can make trip attacks and it has reach. I have no idea what Dragon was thinking when it allowed that in.
Note on the Sharrash from ECS errata
Page 120: Weapons Table
The Talenta sharrash should have a critical threat range
of 19–20/x2, not 19–20/x4.
I was actually thinking about improvised weapons of this sort this past summer but for me it was pitchforks, saws, rakes and lawnmowers (electric) what do you guys think on those?
I seem to remember one of the Ravenloft Guides(from the short time it was brought into 3.5) giving information for a straight razor as an actual weapon. I'll look it up when I get home.
It does.
Straight Razor: 2gp, 1d4 damage, x3, 1/2 pound
Also, funny that you should bring up Ravenloft because it also has a table on items that are similar to real weapons having a smaller penalty. Put up here for your convenience, in case you're interested:
Death By Pitchfork
The minions of darkness have a habit of striking when the heroes are ill prepared to face them. All too often, heroes may be forced to defend themselves with common objects. Furthermore, many characters who heroes encounter in Ravenloft, from mobs of irate villagers to thieving goblinfolk, are more likely to have such weapons of opportunity than true military arms.
Tool-grade weapons are similar to the military-grade weapons listed in the PHB. Characters wielding such items suffer a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls, however. The tools listed below are considered simple weapons. No character can be proficient with an item that lacks an obvious grip or handle, such as a wooden plank. Listed below are several tool-grade weapons and the military-grade weapons they resemble.
Axe: Battleaxe
Crowbar: Light mace
Grain flail: Light flail
Gaff: Light pick
Hammer: Light hammer
Hatchet: Handaxe
Hoe: Quarterstaff (not a double weapon)
Machete: Scimitar
Pick: Heavy pick
Pitchfork: Trident
Fireplace poker: Half spear
Scythe: Scythe
Shovel: Quarterstaff (not a double weapon)
Sickle: Sickle
Sledge: Warhammer