Been seeing some judgment calls lately that I’m not sure were done quite the best way possible. One was a call I made, one was made against my character, and one didn’t involve me directly I was just there.
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Hide from dead = correct.
Archer ranger with Improved Precise Shot. . . no cover bonuses to AC granted unless it's total cover (see feat). Soft cover is a lesser state than cover, so it should be ignored entirely.
Feeblemind. . . implies you can't understand language or coherently communicate. Saying a word is coherently communicating and implies understanding language, so the "the final gestures, words, and so on" of spell completion and the requirement that "a single word that must be spoken" for spell trigger items rules that out. SLAs have no components and don't require anything special to use (they aren't casting spells), so I don't believe those are affected by feeblemind (except for save DCs of course).
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Hide from Undead: Per the spell, can't see, hear, smell, or detect with extraordinary and supernatural senses, though may have reason to believe something is there. You adjudicated correctly. At best, the ghouls might have started swinging blindly when the armor began moving.
Ranger: All are wrong; the Feat negates any cover but total cover.
Normally the rules for Cover require you to trace a line to the target, and if anything is in the way, a set bonus applies. Cover (+4) applies if something, including a player, is between you and the target. If part of the target isn't covered, then only the +2 AC bonus applies. Not knowing the size of the enemy, hard to say who was correct if the Feat didn't affect things, but the bonus will only apply once.
Feeblemind: Per the rules, spell-like abilities are not spells (they duplicate spell effects), and are activated mentally. Feeblemind does not stop their use, though if based off an ability score it could affect the strength of the SLA.
1. Yes, even extraordinary senses are fooled by hide from undead. Good call.
2. Soft cover is a +4, same as regular cover with respect to AC. If it also happened to be partial cover, though, it's only +2. Cover doesn't really stack unless the GM decides it does; there's a rule in there that empowers the GM to make ad hoc adjustments for atypical situations. This sounds pretty typical, though.
Edit: ack, missed the feat. No cover bonus would apply.
3. Spell trigger should still work as far as I know; there's no Int requirement to use a wand of magic missiles that I'm aware of. SLAs aren't spells, either, and many low-Int magical beasts have SLAs. Not sure about spell completion. Command word items would be tricky, though, depending on the GM's definition of "communicate coherently".
You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
So would that make it so the sorc has -1 times per day and can't use it for that reason?
Yeah, there is that.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
So the penalty by feeblemind would not limit the number of casts of your spell-like abilities. It would simply weaken them.
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In some ways I think the question of using magic items is a bit moot anyway. The person effected is at animal level intelligence. The spell description points out that they know who their friends are and can "protect" them but I would equate that to an animal with the defend trick. They are going to act instinctively and I don't see them even attempting to dig in their pack for a magic item or to have any concept of how such things work or what value they have.
As far as bloodline powers go, unless there's a rule to specifically say they can't use them, my thought would be they the person would actually be more likely to use them as it's an innate ability. As you mention the lack of Charisma means they have less uses (perhaps they lack the sense of self to focus the ability) but I think they are still there.
So the penalty by feeblemind would not limit the number of casts of your spell-like abilities. It would simply weaken them.Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Not sure you are correct in this case, but I want you to be.
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a handful of clay, crystal, or glass spheres)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
Target creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a –4 penalty on its saving throw.
This spell doesn't say it is damaging or draining an ability score. It says the score drops to 1. So I'm not sure.
[Feeblemind GM in question]
The main quote from the spell that had me hinged up was:
The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently.
1. Spell completion items: I think this one is pretty clearly no. The main problem is that you can't cast things and spell-completion items count as casting. You also can't communicate coherently so you can't say the verbal components.
2. Spell trigger: This one is trickier since you're not actually casting the spell so losing the ability to cast is not relevant. Even though you no longer have the ability to cast, you should still be able to activate spell-trigger items from your class. It would be similar to a wizard with an Int of 10 who could still go around using wands from the wizard spell list even though he can't cast anything. The problem is with the "communicate coherently" part and ultimately I think it is GM discretion on whether you are able to say the command word effectively. I would argue not since the command word would have to be "coherent" in order to activate the wand.
3. Spell-like abilities: This is the trickiest one I think, partly because I'm not that well-versed. I thought that spell-like abilities still had to be *cast* like normal spells (which is why they shut off in anti-magic fields. . . and don't they require concentration checks? I digress.).
I think my original assumptions about SLAs were wrong and that's why I made the calling I did. I assumed that SLAs had to be *cast* like a normal spell and since Feeblemind says that you can't "cast spells", I therefore thought that that enveloped SLAs too. Having read (above) a little more about SLAs I can see now that they are not treated the same way and therefore someone should still be able to use their SLAs even under the effects of Feeblemind.
On the times/day question: Feeblemind is not ability damage or drain (which is why it cannot be fixed with lesser or normal restoration). It just drops them to 1 permanently until they receive heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish. It therefore would affect the times/day, in my opinion. Which in a way makes the above paragraph a moot point.
Quick note on monster SLAs: It may be that their times/day aren't based on a mental stat (or any stat at all), hence a monster could have Int 1, Wis 1, and Cha 1 and still have SLAs usable X times/day. Some monsters have save DCs, etc, that are Con-based, for example. Or they may just be a racial/species thing that's not based on stats. Basically, it's hard to use monster abilities to determine an effect on a PC with class levels.
The SLAs in question, though, (sorcerer SLAs) are based on a stat to determine their times/day. That's why I would rule that they are different.
Looks like everyone agrees, spell completion items are a no go. So my scrolls are out.
Not everyone agrees on the spell trigger items like wands. Anyone seen anything official?
SLA's would still have, but since the number of times per day is limited by charisma there would be 0 each day available.
I can't imagine it makes a difference. But just for completeness of information the 2 SLA's in questions are the Deep Earth bloodline Tremor and Celestial bloodline Heavenly Fire bloodline powers.
As another bit of info: spell trigger items do not use command words--at least not by default. You can use a wand in silence; you just have to be able to point it in the target's general direction. So communication is usually irrelevant for this purpose.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken.
They require speaking a word to activate.
You can't use UMD as it is a charisma based skill. If spell trigger requires speaking, as some have noted, it seems that also would be beyond you.
And let's be honest, 1 int and charisma is pretty pathetic. You're lucky you allowed to use tools (like a sword) as that's beyond most animals.
Agreed. But wisdom is still 10. So he can still figure things out, just has no eduction or learning. I don't have a real problem with how ever it is ruled. I just want to know. I hate it when later I find out, "Well you could have just done X and maybe the 2 others would not have died."
So what it is possible for me to do I will. If that is just throw bottles then that is what I will do. But if I'm throwing bottles then next week one of the other players says "Why didn't you use tremor to interupt his spell casting" I will feel like a complete shmuck.
Seems fine to me. Keep in mind most animals have over 10 wisdom, and many have 2 int.
As it looks:
NO: spells, spell completion
Probably no: spell trigger (based on command word argument)
Seems fine: Su, and Sp
To be fair Spell like abilities says "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell". This bypasses speaking, gesturing, etc, but someone MIGHT say you need the requisite casting stat of 10+spell level. Which RAW definitely could support.
I'd establish "I'll do what my allies want" pretty quickly, like sitting down, attacking (or not), going over there etc. Even without language these can be communicated.
The SLA question is still a bit foggy for me. I'm not sure if they are actually tied to any stats and/or your ability to cast normal spells. But ultimately, the abilities in question are tied to a stat in their number of uses per day (3 + Cha mod or similar) and since Cha is 1 (-4 I believe?), then you'd have access to that ability 0 times/day. At least, that's the way it looks to me right now.
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Agreed. Looks like I'll be throwing bottles for this fight.
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Note: Int being lowered to 1 does not make you forget your schooling, it just removes most ability to have any higher mental functions, like inductive or deductive reasoning.
Animals, with an Int of 1, can still be taught tricks in PF.
On teh SLAs, yes, the number should be reduced, but check for relevant language, where it might say 3 + CHa (minimum 1), he would still get that one use a day in that case. Just like he still has a single skill point to access, maybe two if human. Also any skills gained from a headband of vast intelligence won't be affected by the Feeblemind, other than relevant stat mod.
To be honest, and this is from someone who has a relative who had a bad stroke, being under the effect of Feeblemind is probably more similar to dealing with the aftereffects of a stroke, where the person has difficulty communicating, still remembers stuff, but has little way to communicate it to anyone else.
Your PC would still know that fire hurts, that Kevin likes bacon, or what-have-you, but he would find it difficult to let Kevin know that there is some bacon ready to eat on the fire.
Well, in this case, there is no (minimum 1). But if it happens to me in the future, I will keep watch for something like that.
More fuel for the fire: Stat boosting items are not affected.
If your Sorcerer has a +4 Cha headband, their effective Cha after feeblemind is 5, not 1. This can also apply to Int items. While not a value high enough to cast spells, it also may be enough to intelligently use stuff.
With a +2 Int item, they now have Int 3, enough for language. This should enable spell completion and spell trigger items. This should also work with a spell that grants +Int.
With stat boosts in play, you may want to allow access to feeblemind blocked skills.
/cevah
Well, not nearly high enough level for a +4 headband.
But it might be incentive enough to buy a potion of eagle's splendor and fox's cunning to keep on hand for just such emergencies.