Natural Attacks...How does primary and secondary truely work.

[the_move]

A companion of mine as a large ape as an animal companion.
The Ape has a bite and 2 claws attacks. According to him the ape can use all 3 attacks (bite, claw, claw) in a full-round action sequence without any penalties occuring, since they are all considered primary weapons in the book.

However, according to the old 3.5 glossary only one natural attack can be the primary and any following are reduced to secondaries, especially for balancing reasons. https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_na turalweapon&alpha=

If the first occurs, this looks a bit overpowered to me especially, because this renders non-companion classes like the fighter or barbarian pretty useless as damaging classes, as they can't pull out that many damaging attacks at lvl4 and the druid can act himself on his turn. Being shapechanged this can result into 6+ natural attacks...at lvl 4?

[blackbloodtroll]

Forget 3.5, and it's rules.

See Pathfinder rules here.

[the_move]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Forget 3.5, and it's rules.

See Pathfinder rules here.

I've already read this section. So it means all primary attacks retain the "primary" status even when they are all used in a full-round action, doesn't it? Pretty much overpowered to give a druid 6+ attacks at full bonus on lvl 4.

[Petty Alchemy]

Psh, you mean from level 1 because of their heartbeast. The summoner and alchemist can do the same, and some other classes probably could as well.

Yeah, I don't like Natural Attack rules. Beasts are better at fighting than fighters (and not just because of how they cheat iteratives, but they also get to do combat maneuvers like grabs and trips without giving up their attack).

[blackbloodtroll]

No.

You have to remember that all creatures have this ability.

You also have to remember, that races/classes in general, are stronger.

Also, natural attacks do no increase in number with high BAB.

[the_move]

Natural attacks may not increase in number, but those are companions, which means there is a PC, who also has action/attacks on his turn and it means 2 targets with individual HP pool each. Looks quite over the top to me.

They should really look this over once more, so that there may be only one primary and anything afterwards should be considered secondary.

But thanks for the answer.

[blackbloodtroll]

Been absolutely looked over, since Alpha/Beta testing.

It is balanced. It works.

You could always houserule, or play 3.5.

Have fun with Grapple and Polymorph spells.

[kinevon]

Note: The AC has three primary natural attacks, probably at +4 or so, for 1d6+3, 1d4+1, 1d4+1 damage.

The Fighter has one attack, possibly two with TWF, for 2d6+6 at +6 or +7 to hit, or two attackacks at 1d8+4 and 1d6+2 at +5 or +6 to hit.

So, AC does average 13 points of damage, if all three hit.
Fighter does 13 points of damage (THW) or 14 points of damage (TWF) with a better chance of actually hitting with their attack(s).

The Fighter's chance to hit goes up faster than the AC's, and so does his damage, given items and weapon enhancements.

In response, the Druid's turn, more and more, is given over to buffing his AC to compensate.

Overall, the same (or similar) buffs on the fighter might provide more damage potential. Which is where area/group buffs, which is one of the Bard's fortes, can shine, since it helps both combat machines.

[DigitalMage]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You could always houserule, or play 3.5.

Have fun with Grapple and Polymorph spells.

Not sure about the Polymorph spells (I would need to look at the errataed 3.5 and PF changes) but in terms of Grappling playing the 3.5 version may actually be more fun - it is for me :)

[Nefreet]

Pathfinder is not D&D. Many things have changed and been upgraded. Natural attacks weren't the only aspect of the rules that received an overhaul, and the rules that exist now are balanced as Pathfinder exists now.

[blahpers]

the_move wrote:

Natural attacks may not increase in number, but those are companions, which means there is a PC, who also has action/attacks on his turn and it means 2 targets with individual HP pool each. Looks quite over the top to me.

They should really look this over once more, so that there may be only one primary and anything afterwards should be considered secondary.

But thanks for the answer.

Everyone's a designer.

Try actually playing it. At level 1, yeah, a badger is a beast, byt against anything with decent AC it will underperform compared to a martial class with good combat stats. At level 4, fighter easily comes out above an AC. By level 20, the druid is like as not to retrain for a domain instead as the AC just doesn't hold up in combat.