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FUN FACT: Derogatory sneering at people who enjoy a combat-oriented game "roll-play" game as opposed to a "deeper", more "mature" "role-play" game dates back to at least 1980, at least according to Wikipedia.
And despite having been repeated an average of 80 times a day since then, IT NEVER GETS OLD
I imagine I am odd (yes, yes I am). The play style doesn't bother me overly much -- most everyone likes a fight now and then, or even more often.
The term 'murderhobo' just irritates me, however. Doubly so when it is applied in game as an occupation (see other thread) or used to describe folks in character.
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I imagine I am odd (yes, yes I am). The play style doesn't bother me overly much -- most everyone likes a fight now and then, or even more often.
The term 'murderhobo' just irritates me, however. Doubly so when it is applied in game as an occupation (see other thread) or used to describe folks in character.
It bothers me because it not only is the antithesis of how I play my characters, but it creates an image of gamers that plays directly into the stereotypes that cause non-gamers to sneer and condescend towards gamers as... well... "murder hobos."
It implies that playing Pathfinder is essentially the same thing as playing Grand Theft Auto, or doing the grind in WoW, or otherwise simply ignoring morality, story and meaning.
Maybe it bothers me because I had to deal with accusations of satanism, witchcraft and mental instability when I first started playing this game and I'm tired of the derogatory stereotyping of the game and the people who play them.
Wasn't murderhobo was already a fully fledged meme long before Pathfinder started to become the big thing it is now? The odds are that it will survive the deaths of many different incarnations of gaming in the years to come anyway.
Not if the murderhobos get a hold of it it won't!
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3rd Edition removed...All of that falls under 'overcoming challenges'. Did you mean 'failed to spell out rewards for'?
might as well be the same
the newer DMs nowadays that played post 3rd edition, tend to rely on the rewards being explicitly spelled out rewards because a lot of them don't want to deal with excessive calculation because of the otherwise heavy focus on rules being explicitly spelled out.
in fact, the explicit spelling out of rules, has encouraged lazy DMing, slowed down gameplay, and either complicated or invalidated a variety of things.
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the newer DMs nowadays that played post 3rd edition, tend to rely on the rewards being explicitly spelled out rewards because a lot of them don't want to deal with excessive calculation because of the otherwise heavy focus on rules being explicitly spelled out.
in fact, the explicit spelling out of rules, has encouraged lazy DMing, slowed down gameplay, and either complicated or invalidated a variety of things.
That's been going on since 1st edition.
EDIT: If not before, feel free to correct me. Probably been going on since the White Box.
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It bothers me because it not only is the antithesis of how I play my characters, but it creates an image of gamers that plays directly into the stereotypes that cause non-gamers to sneer and condescend towards gamers as... well... "murder hobos."
It implies that playing Pathfinder is essentially the same thing as playing Grand Theft Auto, or doing the grind in WoW, or otherwise simply ignoring morality, story and meaning.
Maybe it bothers me because I had to deal with accusations of satanism, witchcraft and mental instability when I first started playing this game and I'm tired of the derogatory stereotyping of the game and the people who play them.
I'm imagining you with one hand clutched to your heart and the back of the other to your forehead as you type this.
I doubt the negative stereotypes about tabletop gamers have anything to do with the perception that the games are lacking in substance. The term "murder hobo" does not have any currency outside of tabletop gamers, so it is unlikely to be used as a slander except by those already in the box. The satanism, witchcraft, and mental instability accusations have not been mainstream for a long time. Pathfinder -is- "essentially" the same thing as GTA or WoW, neither of which game would not exist if not for tabletop RPGs.
"Won't someone PLEASE think of the children?!"
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LOL Sarcasmancer...
By the way, I love that name.
I suppose we'll have to disagree, but I sorta like the way you do it. :)
LOL Sarcasmancer...
By the way, I love that name.
I suppose we'll have to disagree, but I sorta like the way you do it. :)
Praise from Caesar! Thanks, and I hope others don't construe my disagreement as disrespectful. There should be room at the (gaming) table for everyone.
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Maybe it bothers me because I had to deal with accusations of satanism, witchcraft and mental instability when I first started playing this game and I'm tired of the derogatory stereotyping of the game and the people who play them.
... You started gaming during the Salem witch trials?
Those are some pretty extreme accusations. I've had them leveled against me for playing, but that was mostly by people in their 70s-80s. To many of them, gaming may indeed seem to be a lot of things it isn't. Wasn't aware people nowadays would say that sorta stuff to you, at least not sane people.
Eh, it's a useful warning sign for games to avoid.
I know I don't play a murderhobo or have them in my own home games. I look at it as a term to describe certain games or players, and as neither are mine it doesn't bother me - if anything I find it useful as Mikaze says, as an easy way to identify certain types of player or game (and sometimes in a positive way - if I were to GM a PFS game and someone started using the term it could possibly help me identify the type of player I need to cater for)
I don't look at it as being any different to describing, say, "monty haul" games. It's just a slang term to describe a playstyle.
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... You started gaming during the Salem witch trials?
Those are some pretty extreme accusations. I've had them leveled against me for playing, but that was mostly by people in their 70s-80s. To many of them, gaming may indeed seem to be a lot of things it isn't. Wasn't aware people nowadays would say that sorta stuff to you, at least not sane people.
Alternate (and, perhaps, less ridiculous) interpretation: He didn't start playing "nowadays" and maybe even started playing in the aforementioned 70s-80s.
Wildebob, I suppose my own approach is to lead by example. I am frequently the person in our group that points out behavior that is bordering on the less than heroic. I then attempt to lead by example if I am a player, or I point out that behavior has consequences if I am the GM.
For example, if I am the GM and the players recover loot from the bandit party that includes a rare locket inscribed "To Sam, with love from Rosie", if they come back to town and attempt to pawn it off, instead of at least looking for Rosie or Sam, it is quite possible that the pawnbroker or town jeweler might well know Rosie, and inform the group that since Sam's murder, Rosie has been struggling mightily to raise her young son and that the locket would be a great blessing for Rosie, either to remind her of her beloved murdered Sam, or to sell it herself to allow her to send young Frodo to wizard school or something.
Then it's up to the party whether they want to "do the right thing" or not. It is very rare that the party, when made aware of the situation, does not say "Well, where can we find this poor lass and return her locket to her?"
If the loot is always some generic pile of coins and gems, the PCs really don't have opportunities to display such altruistic behavior, so I make sure my loot piles have those opportunities.
Incidentally, this can be an excellent way to organically introduce some plot hooks without forcing them, if your players are the sort to do some research ...
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I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a joke, for gods' sake.Yeahbut- too many people are using this to ridicule D&D/Pathfinder. “It’s just a bunch of murderhoboes wandering around killing everyone and taking their stuff”. But it isn’t or at least it’s never been that way in any game I have ever played, as we played with adults.
Excuse me, but who's doing that?
It bothers me because it not only is the antithesis of how I play my characters, but it creates an image of gamers that plays directly into the stereotypes that cause non-gamers to sneer and condescend towards gamers as... well... "murder hobos."
My experience with the word murderhobo is that it is often used as a criticism towards certain kinds of roleplaying games, largely D&D and its descendents. It refers to a type of game that facilitates the "kill creatures that look different from us and take their stuff" playstyle. The word is also used to refer to that playstyle, typically in a derogatory manner. Cf. "rollplay vs. roleplay".
That is, "murderhobo" isn't used non-roleplayers saying something about tabletop roleplaying games, it's used by roleplayers saying something about certain tabletop games. Your idea that this is how people who don't play tabletop roleplaying games view people who do is unfounded.
It implies that playing Pathfinder is essentially the same thing as playing Grand Theft Auto, or doing the grind in WoW,
It is implying that playing Pathfinder is like playing popular video games? Why is that a bad thing? Honestly, it's really easy to compare to video games to describe tabletop roleplaying games: "It's like video game RPGs but instead of the story and NPCs being programmed in, one of the people playing is in charge of that. Also, rather than interacting with party members through extensive dialog choice systems, you just roleplay with other players."
or otherwise simply ignoring morality, story and meaning.
I've not played GTA, but when I've seen people talking about it online, they've talked about its characters and plot. Ditto for WoW. Those games aren't devoid of meaning and story.
Maybe it bothers me because I had to deal with accusations of satanism, witchcraft and mental instability when I first started playing this game and I'm tired of the derogatory stereotyping of the game and the people who play them.
Oh get over yourself. The D&D is witchcraft thing is over. When the most common thing cited as espousing that view is a Chick Tract, you can be certain it's a fringe view. Stop demanding that everyone react to a non-existent threat.
People who play roleplaying games aren't being oppressed somehow by people (who also play roleplaying games!) saying "murderhobo".
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My experience with the word murderhobo is that it is often used as a criticism towards certain kinds of roleplaying games, largely D&D and its descendents. It refers to a type of game that facilitates the "kill creatures that look different from us and take their stuff" playstyle. The word is also used to refer to that playstyle, typically in a derogatory manner. Cf. "rollplay vs. roleplay".
Who does that? Nobody i know or nobody whom people i know know.
It is implying that playing Pathfinder is like playing popular video games? Why is that a bad thing? Honestly, it's really easy to compare to video games to describe tabletop roleplaying games: "It's like video game RPGs but instead of the story and NPCs being programmed in, one of the people playing is in charge of that. Also, rather than interacting with party members through extensive dialog choice systems, you just roleplay with other players."
That is a bad thing. Tabletop roleplaying games are infinitely better than video games of any kind. And comparing the two also gets people the wrong idea about TTRPGs. I had to turn away a lot of players because they wanted to play PF like GTA.
Oh get over yourself. The D&D is witchcraft thing is over
You'd be surprised how many stupid, religious people there are in the world. Who, yes, still believe that idocy.
No, we are not being orpressed by the word 'murderhobo'. It just does damage to our image as normal, well-adjusted members of society who unwind by playing roleplaying games which are so much more than just killing things and taking their stuff.
Also, i don't think you have any right to tell anyone to get over themselves. An issue that you may consider unimportant might be very important to someone else.
IF...
An individual outside of the Hobby used the term to disparage anyone within the Hobby who is enjoying the game in their own way
Then…(I feel)
It is our responsibility to push back (in well meaning and gentlemanly fashion) in such a way that shows that not only are we not insulted by the term, but we will gladly identify the play style as it has been used by someone outside of our Hobby, clarify it, and make it our own!
Who does that? Nobody i know or nobody whom people i know know.
Go to websites and internet forums about tabletop roleplaying games.
That is a bad thing. Tabletop roleplaying games are infinitely better than video games of any kind.
I too generally prefer tabletop roleplaying games to video games. But I don't see how it's relevant which you like more.
No, we are not being orpressed by the word 'murderhobo'. It just does damage to our image as normal, well-adjusted members of society who unwind by playing roleplaying games which are so much more than just killing things and taking their stuff.
People who have never heard the term murderhobo aren't going to judge anyone based on it. So unless people who don't play roleplaying games spend a lot of time on the internet reading players of roleplaying games talk about roleplaying games...
Also, i don't think you have any right to tell anyone to get over themselves. An issue that you may consider unimportant might be very important to someone else.
I'm sure that Adamantine Dragon considers this an important issue. The problem is that this "important issue" is just a bogeyman in his head.
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Well, I tried to get everyone at the table, but the murder oboes, murder obos, and murder hobos killed everyone!
Oh my, your players were murdered by oboes? My condolences.
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That is a bad thing. Tabletop roleplaying games are infinitely better than video games of any kind. And comparing the two also gets people the wrong idea about TTRPGs. I had to turn away a lot of players because they wanted to play PF like GTA.
I enjoy both tabletop gaming and video games equally. My enjoyment may stem from different reasons, but that doesn't alter the fact that claims of "X is better than Y" are opinion, yet you seem here to be stating it as a fact, and it simply is not.
Also, i don't think you have any right to tell anyone to get over themselves. An issue that you may consider unimportant might be very important to someone else.
Conversely, I don't think you - or the OP - have the right to tell anyone how they should game; if they enjoy the concept of being random vagabond adventurers who slaughter things for money, and giggle at the use of the word 'murderhobo', it's their prerogative. Yet the whole concept of 'defending' the gaming community from this term is effectively claiming that you have the right to do just that.
An issue that you may consider important might be very unimportant to someone else.
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Well, I tried to get everyone at the table, but the murder oboes, murder obos, and murder hobos killed everyone!Oh my, your players were murdered by oboes? My condolences.
How do you get two oboists in tune?
Murder one.
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]I'm sure that Adamantine Dragon considers this an important issue. The problem is that this "important issue" is just a bogeyman in his head.
To you. Also, again, who gave you the right to decide for other people? If it is important to him, but irrelevant to you, that does not allow you to demean his preferences and opinions.
An issue that you may consider important might be very unimportant to someone else.
Exactly, but it is important to me. And me>>someone else so...
Also, the term 'murderhobo' is not really a positive term. And I don't much care for people above the age of 15 who play in that style all the time. Everyone runs a murderhobofest from time to time. In dungeon crawl one shots mostly, I presume.
I see the term as a negative, and as something that if someone else, not in the know, heard, they would get the wrong impression. And I'd prefer for that not to happen. I like my hobby and I don't want it associated with such stuff.
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Conversely, I don't think you - or the OP - have the right to tell anyone how they should game; if they enjoy the concept of being random vagabond adventurers who slaughter things for money, and giggle at the use of the word 'murderhobo', it's their prerogative. Yet the whole concept of 'defending' the gaming community from this term is effectively claiming that you have the right to do just that.
An issue that you may consider important might be very unimportant to someone else.
I'm sure that Adamantine Dragon considers this an important issue. The problem is that this "important issue" is just a bogeyman in his head.
It's funny that we bring this up, given the vast number of threads with thousands of posts deriding other gamers for not having enough gender diversification, sexual preferences, women's roles, how much taxes serfs pay, whether or not magic stores exist and so on. These are important (or at least interesting) issues to some people, and to others they aren't a big deal. If they aren't to you, then hey that is cool. But jumping down Adamantine Dragon's throat over voicing an opinion isn't cool, especially when several of those posting have gotten their ire up when they've been told their own pet issues aren't of importance.
Don't have a problem with murderhobos or hack-n-slash games or with possibly putting off a bad appearance to prospective new players? Address that. But trying to diminish someone else's point of view, while a time honoured tradition on boards and the Internet in general, by saying that it isn't a big deal is just crappy.
Yeah, he's been at it for a while. I only got going after Lee surrendered at Appomattox.Maybe it bothers me because I had to deal with accusations of satanism, witchcraft and mental instability when I first started playing this game and I'm tired of the derogatory stereotyping of the game and the people who play them.... You started gaming during the Salem witch trials?
I remember wargaming with ol' Bob and Stoney when they were kids...
Edit: In all seriousness, the "satanic" or "demonic" charges against D&D were probably more prevalent in the south where I lived in the late 70s, and at that time I was fairly active in the Evangelical Christian community (wow, that was a long time ago). In part because I played D&D, but probably equally because I kept asking a lot of troublesome questions, I actually got kicked out of my church and lost a lot of friends over it.
In the end I think I got the better end of the deal, but still, it was a tough thing to go through and perhaps that colors my perception of similar potential to marginalize gamers through terminology and prejudice.
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Exactly, but it is important to me. And me>>someone else so...
Also, the term 'murderhobo' is not really a positive term. And I don't much care for people above the age of 15 who play in that style all the time. Everyone runs a murderhobofest from time to time. In dungeon crawl one shots mostly, I presume.
I see the term as a negative, and as something that if someone else, not in the know, heard, they would get the wrong impression. And I'd prefer for that not to happen. I like my hobby and I don't want it associated with such stuff.
It's not 'your hobby'. It's a hobby in which you happen to participate, along with hundreds of thousands of other people. Pretending ownership or guardianship of that hobby and effectively judging others as 'unworthy' of it is (one of the reasons) why you're seeing disagreement.
But trying to diminish someone else's point of view, while a time honoured tradition on boards and the Internet in general, by saying that it isn't a big deal is just crappy.
By that logic, disagreeing with anyone at any time for any reason is 'crappy'.
No one in the community has any commitment to accept what someone else considers a 'big deal', nor do we have any commitment to simply be quiet when we feel like someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.
I've presented (admittedly anecdotal) evidence of why I think this is a non-isssue - Mazes and Monsters didn't destroy tabletop gaming, rumours of Satanic practices and black magic didn't destroy it, Jack Chick didn't destroy it, and therefore I see no rational reason to believe that a meme term that you're unlikely to hear unless you already have a relationship with the gaming community seems unlikely to cause significant (or even noticeable) damage to it.
The idea that you must respect an idea simply because someone else holds it is bullpuckey. A bad idea is just that - a bad idea. If you're less than polite in presenting a counterargument against that idea, then that could be considered rude; then again, from my personal perspective I didn't feel that the original issue was presented in a wholly polite way in the first place, and so I respond in kind.
That is a bad thing. Tabletop roleplaying games are infinitely better than video games of any kind. And comparing the two also gets people the wrong idea about TTRPGs. I had to turn away a lot of players because they wanted to play PF like GTA.I enjoy both tabletop gaming and video games equally. My enjoyment may stem from different reasons, but that doesn't alter the fact that claims of "X is better than Y" are opinion, yet you seem here to be stating it as a fact, and it simply is not.
This. I agree 100% with the rest of that post, Hama, but as someone who's introduction to the world of gaming was the likes of Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI, I cannot disagree more with comparing one of my favorite hobbies to another. I love them both in different ways, but equally, and I don't think I could ever definitively pick one over the other.
Maybe your would-be players are just playing the wrong video games.
Adamantine Dragon,
From my (limited and subjective) experience, most folks grow out of the murderhobo mindset. We used to refer to adventuring as "home invasion" back in high school. Unfortunately, the lack of RP awards in 2.0 is also why we switched to GURPS, instead of just home-brewing RP awards.
We don't worry about RP awards anymore, we just do it. I can't count the number of character-based point of view arguments we've had, in -character marriages (sometimes between straight players of the same sex), in-game politicking. It's all about the fun of the RP, with a heavy dose of action/adventure.
If you want to get your players out of the murderhobo mindset, give them something to do that doesn't necessarily involve violence. Something where violence is a disproportionate response. Maybe there are two good aligned leaders who disagree on a course of action for the city to take. Give the players the opportunity to make the peace, and solve a problem. There are no specific mechanics for this in PF, but we've stolen the "skill challenge" mechanic from 4.0 and it works pretty well. (It also encourages folks to spend points in a variety of skills.)
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But trying to diminish someone else's point of view, while a time honoured tradition on boards and the Internet in general, by saying that it isn't a big deal is just crappy.By that logic, disagreeing with anyone at any time for any reason is 'crappy'.
No one in the community has any commitment to accept what someone else considers a 'big deal', nor do we have any commitment to simply be quiet when we feel like someone is making a mountain out of a molehill.
I've presented (admittedly anecdotal) evidence of why I think this is a non-isssue - Mazes and Monsters didn't destroy tabletop gaming, rumours of Satanic practices and black magic didn't destroy it, Jack Chick didn't destroy it, and therefore I see no rational reason to believe that a meme term that you're unlikely to hear unless you already have a relationship with the gaming community seems unlikely to cause significant (or even noticeable) damage to it.
The idea that you must respect an idea simply because someone else holds it is bullpuckey. A bad idea is just that - a bad idea. If you're less than polite in presenting a counterargument against that idea, then that could be considered rude; then again, from my personal perspective I didn't feel that the original issue was presented in a wholly polite way in the first place, and so I respond in kind.
No. What I said was trying to minimalize someone's point of view was crappy -- that term picked because others would not make it past the censors. Just saying "That isn't important and you are silly for thinking it is" isn't an argument, it's trying to dismiss the poster.
That said, I'd love to sticky your counter-argument to point to when people are being crucified for not having every shade of skin tone, every sexual preference and gender identification, and a open-armed worship of every play style in their games. You know, all the not so big deals that people are jumping up and down and screaming about across these boards with language that would make a sailor blush.
I'm pretty sure that AD didn't say that murder hobos were destroying the hobby or going to be the final straw that takes us down. The general mindset behind a table full of people gleefully slaughtering whomever for profit -- whatever you want to call them -- might put off new prospective players, be they young or old. There are triggers that are going to have people step away from the individual table or the hobby in general; I'd be disinclined to have my kids play a table where people were cussing up a storm, for example. Others have their own preferences, likes and dislikes.
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Who does that? Nobody i know or nobody whom people i know know.Go to websites and internet forums about tabletop roleplaying games.
That is a bad thing. Tabletop roleplaying games are infinitely better than video games of any kind.I too generally prefer tabletop roleplaying games to video games. But I don't see how it's relevant which you like more.
No, we are not being orpressed by the word 'murderhobo'. It just does damage to our image as normal, well-adjusted members of society who unwind by playing roleplaying games which are so much more than just killing things and taking their stuff.People who have never heard the term murderhobo aren't going to judge anyone based on it. So unless people who don't play roleplaying games spend a lot of time on the internet reading players of roleplaying games talk about roleplaying games...
Also, i don't think you have any right to tell anyone to get over themselves. An issue that you may consider unimportant might be very important to someone else.I'm sure that Adamantine Dragon considers this an important issue. The problem is that this "important issue" is just a bogeyman in his head.
So you would be fine with people telling you to "get over it" when you do yourperiodic soapboxing?
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It's not 'your hobby'. It's a hobby in which you happen to participate, along with hundreds of thousands of other people. Pretending ownership or guardianship of that hobby and effectively judging others as 'unworthy' of it is (one of the reasons) why you're seeing disagreement.Exactly, but it is important to me. And me>>someone else so...
Also, the term 'murderhobo' is not really a positive term. And I don't much care for people above the age of 15 who play in that style all the time. Everyone runs a murderhobofest from time to time. In dungeon crawl one shots mostly, I presume.
I see the term as a negative, and as something that if someone else, not in the know, heard, they would get the wrong impression. And I'd prefer for that not to happen. I like my hobby and I don't want it associated with such stuff.
Actually, when one is a participant in a hobby, it is typical to referred to it as "his/her hobby", "my hobby" or "your hobby". It does not pretend ownership, it is they standard means of reference.
That said, everyone who participates in whatever hobby one wishes to discuss does have a claim of ownership to it. It is not exclusive ownership, but it is ownership none the less.
But trying to diminish someone else's point of view, while a time honoured tradition on boards and the Internet in general, by saying that it isn't a big deal is just crappy.By that logic, disagreeing with anyone at any time for any reason is 'crappy'.
You know it is possible to disagree without brushing off the opposing viewpoint as trivial and meaningless, right?
I sometimes wonder if some people are so beset with tunnel vision that they can't contemplate a general condition without automatically leaping to the exceptions as proof that the general condition is wrong.
"No, you can't say summers are hot! We had a cold front move through and it got downright chilly on June 22!"
Some people insist on pushing forth the argument that because there are situations on occasion where the one person is "right" and the four people are "wrong", that means that it is impossible to generalize the idea that a single person might want to reconsider their position when confronted with a group who disagree with them. This is simply absurd.
But that seems to be the argument here. "You can't say that the one person is ALWAYS WRONG, therefore you must assume the one person is ALWAYS RIGHT."
The logical fallacies involved are monumental.
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And the funny thing is, you almost never have those sorts of fallacies and arguments (in this volume - they exist, sure, but they're far rarer) face-to-face or otherwise without the aid of the internet and the associated anonymity. People are generally downright civil when they actually have to talk to one another.
I'm not
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I'm sure that Adamantine Dragon considers this an important issue. The problem is that this "important issue" is just a bogeyman in his head.It's funny that we bring this up, given the vast number of threads with thousands of posts deriding other gamers for not having enough gender diversification, sexual preferences, women's roles, how much taxes serfs pay, whether or not magic stores exist and so on. These are important (or at least interesting) issues to some people, and to others they aren't a big deal. If they aren't to you, then hey that is cool. But jumping down Adamantine Dragon's throat over voicing an opinion isn't cool, especially when several of those posting have gotten their ire up when they've been told their own pet issues aren't of importance.
While personally I'm of the opinion the term is relatively harmless, it's obvious that to others it isn't, and I totally agree that denigrating others' feelings on the matter isn't the way to debate this properly.
And the funny thing is, you almost never have those sorts of fallacies and arguments (in this volume - they exist, sure, but they're far rarer) face-to-face or otherwise without the aid of the internet and the associated anonymity. People are generally downright civil when they actually have to talk to one another.Yeah. I call it "The Courage of Anonymity."
Most just call it the GIFT. (Ten bucks says the censor eats the URL.)
EDIT: Yep. But you should probably be able to figure it out and input it manually.
*STAMPS ANGRILY*Thank you. I actually laughed out loud.
[In a much better mood now, despite bein' sick.]
Huzzah! Victory!
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There is an interesting dynamic about what's worthy of concern for "serious gamers" going on here.
"Some people within our community deride certain play styles and players with the term murderhobo." - This is worthy of detailed discussion because it detracts/shames from gaming culture, and discourages new players/customers.
"Some people within our community highlight how cissexism, ablism, heterosexism, racism, and sexism is imported/present into our play." This is oversensitive soapboxing by radical queer feminists who are deemed alien to the gaming community.
Maybe there is some kind of mechanism where things that are too serious (i.e. sexism or racism) are inappropriate concerns for regular white, heterosexual, cisgender, male hobbyists. But pejoratives like "murderhobo," because it's ungendered and unracialize, are of utmost concern. Something like a solipsistic threshold, which is a necessary condition for "serious gamer" serious concern.
But I do have to admit, even among "serious gamers," I've found it difficult to run a game devoid of regular combat. A great deal of class features and game rules are combat specific (position, round order, AoO, maneuvers, defensive casting, etc), and as a consequence a DM must find a way to turn out regular, serial combat encounters to keep DnD/Pathfinder mechanics rolling. Roleplaying almost happens outside or orthogonal to the rules, leading to the unfortunate result that the DnD/Pathfinder rules alone foster "murderhobo" game styles.
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As much as we sometimes cross horns, I'm backing the Dragon 100 percent on this one. I've endured for quite sometime the frequent assumption that the "murderhobo" is the definitive style of gaming, that that is the PC we make unless we prove something different. And it reinforces my conviction that newbies should not be let on this messageboard without an escort. And like AD, I think that trying to combat this meme is like tilting at windmills.Dragon... pass me a lance.
It's not the only phrase I fight against. I'd love to get "kill things and take their stuff's" head on the chopping block too. It's fundamentally the same, just a bit wordier and just as vexing.
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There is an interesting dynamic about what's worthy of concern for "serious gamers" going on here.
"Some people within our community deride certain play styles and players with the term murderhobo." - This is worthy of detailed discussion because it detracts/shames from gaming culture, and discourages new players/customers.
"Some people within our community highlight how cissexism, ablism, heterosexism, racism, and sexism is imported/present into our play." This is oversensitive soapboxing by radical queer feminists who are deemed alien to the gaming community.
Maybe there is some kind of mechanism where things that are too serious (i.e. sexism or racism) are inappropriate concerns for regular white, heterosexual, cisgender, male hobbyists. But pejoratives like "murderhobo," because it's ungendered and unracialize, are of utmost concern. Something like a solipsistic threshold, which is a necessary condition for "serious gamer" serious concern.
You know, nobody's saying they're NOT. Knightnday certainly isn't. What they're saying is ALL of them should be tackled equally. And that derogatory terms of ALL sorts should get the same kind of reaction, rather than some yes and some no.
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Annabel, based on the number and intensity of threads covering the isms you listed, I think they are getting far more attention and discussion than the "murderhobo" thing is. I'm pretty sure this thread will end and be forgotten while all the other ism threads are still going strong.