Rules Question: Stealth

[ttritten]

Greetings all,

We are having quite a lively debate on just when someone can use the Stealth skill to become hidden, either visually or audibly.

Here is an excerpt from the 3.5 definition for the Hide Skill:

Quote:

You need cover or concealment (see pages 150–152) in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway. If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

and this is from the Stealth Skill in the PF Core book:

Quote:

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, f inding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.

Here is the confusion:

Our current DM is interpreting the wording of the Pathfinder definition for Stealth to imply that a Stealth Check does NOT require cover or concealment, only the state of not being observed. He feels that if I am unobserved, I can make a Stealth check, and if the opposed Perception checks fail, then I gain concealment by default. He does not think that I must find cover or concealment FIRST in order to be able to make a Stealth check in the first place.
The wording on this in 3.5 was VERY clear, but not so much in the PF Stealth description...at least not to his satisfaction.

Can any of you offer any other documented explanations that clear up whether cover or concealment are prerequisites for making a Stealth check??

Thanks.

[Xaratherus]

Here's the full text of the Stealth skill from the PRD (which includes updates from a Stealth errata\FAQ and numerous discussions between the designers and the community):

Stealth:

Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.

In other words:

If you are being observed by a creature, you can make a Stealth check if you gain cover or concealment from the creature. Alternatively, you can make a Bluff check to distract it and then make a Stealth check as you attempt to get to cover or concealment.

If you are not being observed by the creature, then you would not logically need cover or concealment to make a Stealth check because the creature is not aware of your presence and actively 'tracking' your movements and actions.

[Chemlak]

My response is in the form of a question for your GM:

Given that the DC to spot a visible creature (one without cover or concealment) is 0, modified by range, and that it is possible to take 10 on a Perception roll, thereby automatically spotting any and all medium creatures at a range of 100 feet or less (and small creatures at 60 feet or less), can you describe a situation in which any creature at a range below those thresholds is not being observed, and can thus use the stealth skill without cover or concealment?