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The rule text isn't as clear as I would like. It says "both attack" not both "threaten."
1. I agree you don't get the flank until someone threatens in any case. Combat Reflexes would solve this.
2. RAW this should only work on one opponent at a time, but I think it is probably simplest to treat them as flanking anyone they both threaten. [Well, okay, RAW if they both have multiple attacks and both split them they would count as flanking for all overlapping targets.]
3. Otherwise there are silly sequencing games that have to be played. The first attacker doesn't flank, but the second does now that you are both attacking the same opponent. If that foe flees or falls we have t start over on the next guy still standing right there.
4. If I wanted a more complicated rules to reflect RAI I might try:
You are considered flanking against any mutually threatened opponent that your swarming buddy attacked since the start of your last turn. If no such opponents exist, you instead are consider flanking against any single mutually threatened opponent.
To me that smooths the transition between foes that flee or fall while not always applying to everything.
Yeah, I was wondering about this same thing, and wish for some clarification.
Since they are taking their turns individually, what exactly does it mean for them to be "attack the same foe"? They won't be taking their actions simultaneously. In some sense everything in the round is happening simultaneously and not actually in order, but that can be simulated in lots of different ways.
It seems like some interpretations will always screw over whoever rolls first in the initiative order.
Another wrinkle is how this interacts with coordinated charge, where they're supposed to be charging in unison (though of course one action is always going to be resolved before or after the other, so it's kind of still the same problem no matter how you deal with it). It really seems like the idea behind that feat should somehow allow them to both get the same benefits for both attacking the same person.
My ratfolk duo partner and I are planning to delay to get the same initiative and hopefully simplify teamwork coordination a bit. But I think whether that helps at all really depends on how you interpret the wording of this.
The ratfolk swarming trait reads:
"Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares."
What if the ratfolk are acting on different initiative counts? Is the first ratfolk considered flanking prior to the attacks of the second.
If the first ratfolk declares that he is going to attack the same target as his ally and move in step with his ally then so long as the second ratfolk attacks it should work fine.
For added awesomeness, have them both dual wield whips, now they can attack targets 15 feet away.
Does "move in step" have any formal meaning? I've seen the turn order rules relaxed in situations where it is not thought to make a difference. But depending on the interpretation of this ability, the official order might make a difference. So I'm not sure it would be technically allowed to just handwave away the difference between one players turn and another and just say they are moving at the same time. What happens if they trigger AoOs, prepared actions, traps, etc, while "in step"?
Can you take a move action, delay, and then take a standard action? I've always assumed you have to delay your whole turn, but I'm not positive. If you could that might be a way to simulate two allies with the same initiative coordinating their turns a bit. If they can both move into flanking position before either attacks that might simplify the interpretation.
Aha, "readying an action" may provide the answer. Player 1 can get into position and then ready an action to attack the target when player 2 attacks. Then when player 2 is attacking, player 1 interrupts to attack first. I think this would be a 100% legal way to set it up so that both of them get the flanking bonus. If you're interrupting an attack in progress with an attack, there's no way you aren't "attacking the same foe".
Does "move in step" have any formal meaning? I've seen the turn order rules relaxed in situations where it is not thought to make a difference. But depending on the interpretation of this ability, the official order might make a difference. So I'm not sure it would be technically allowed to just handwave away the difference between one players turn and another and just say they are moving at the same time. What happens if they trigger AoOs, prepared actions, traps, etc, while "in step"?
Can you take a move action, delay, and then take a standard action? I've always assumed you have to delay your whole turn, but I'm not positive. If you could that might be a way to simulate two allies with the same initiative coordinating their turns a bit. If they can both move into flanking position before either attacks that might simplify the interpretation.
"I delay to move exactly on the same initiative and with <name> so we move and attack a target at the exact same time."
While that would make sense for some game system to do it that way, I don't think that's a thing that you can do under Pathfinder rules. I don't see anything in the rules that discusses a special case where you can take simultaneous turns with an ally just because you have the same initiative. One of you takes your turn first, then the other takes their turn. What you're saying sounds like a house rule.
However the ready an action thing works for most things under RAW.
It makes perfect sense: If both ratfolk need to attack the same target for that target to be flatfooted then they both can attack at the same time. This makes it so they both can take advantage of the swarming trait in the event that both of them want to do so for something like Sneak Attack.
If the first character declares "I am going to full attack this creature when <name> attacks this creature" then they both get the swarming bonus. Think of it as the two chars look at each other, the target, back to each other, nod, and attack in tandum.
The point is that Swarming works in such a way that does not work with the turn system without reworking it.
One potential fix is to say, "If both characters are in the same square when one of the ratfolk attacks a target then any time during the turn of the ratfolk who shared his square on his attack can gain swarming if he attacks that target."
R1 and R2 occupy the same square. R1 goes before R2. R1 attacks M1, and then moves. R2 is treated as being under the swarming trait against M1 because he shared the square with R1 during R1's attack. R2 attacks M1, then moves to a different square. On R1's turn, if he moves into R2's square and attacks M1, he is treated as being under the swarming trait before R2 attacked M1.
Basically, you can make it ultra complex, but there is no reason to do so. This trait moves beyond a single character's turn, thereby moving beyond the scope of the Pathfinder's only able to act during one's turn design.
One option:
As a free action on your turn, declare an attack against an enemy to gain the advantage of swarming for an ally sharing your square. Now delay to that ally's turn, since you are treated as "attacking" the enemy and sharing the square with the ally, the ally takes advantage of Swarming, after your ally's turn your turn begins and you also gain advantage of swarming.
You can go the "Super Ultra COMPLICATION~~~" route, or just find some sort of shorthand to make it work within the rules that it was not designed around.
But you're not "making it work within the rules" by saying they simply take their turns in unison, you're making up new rules. There's a difference. If you're the GM, then making up house rules is acceptable, but there is a relatively low probability that other GMs will accept them, so it doesn't do much good. This is the rules subforum and not the homebrew forum.
Your "one potential fix" sounds like an interpretation that leaves only the second ratfolk benefiting from swarming on round 1 and not the first, which is no fix at all. On the second round if they're still attacking the same guy, they both benefit. But two whole rounds of two characters attacking a single enemy can be a very long time. If it's the BBEG that might be tolerable (though you need the flanking bonus in round 1 more than ever in that case), but a lot of times you can't afford to be that slow at taking out individuals in a large group.
Maybe that's how it works, but it's far from obvious in RAW, so worthy of a clarification if so. And it's far from entirely satisfactory for the player, so it's not a situation where you'd say good enough, lets stop there, without looking for alternatives.
There is a reason to make it "ultra complex" by using readied actions, if that's the only alternative, and that's to provide player 1 with the flanking bonus on their first round against a given enemy, which is very important.
Your second "option" might work. Again more clarification would be helpful there. But I don't see that as substantially different from doing much the same thing with a prepared action.