So you've gone from an undercurrent of immaturity to just immaturity? I think we're done here.no but gauging from the statements in your posts over time I have come to believe you have yet to reach that level of maturity.seriously!? you think BAB + STR bonus = to hit and Higher AC = harder to hit was hard to invent?I'm not saying it wasn't obvious. I'm saying your assertion that you did it before it was cool is absurd given that in this very thread even (I believe) some one said Thac0 was adapted to 3.5 by the old-timers you claim got rid of it before it was cool to get rid of it.
Some one obviously had to invent it but your continued assertions that you are better than me because you are older is getting tiresome.What are you? 12?Give the laptop back to mommy & daddy...
After you graduate to the high school level then you can play the big kids games.
no you were done once you initiated the opening salvo of all old timers == elitist.
You are doing exactly what you are accusing the "greybeards" of doing.So I say again young man...
You want respect?
Give it first.
I did.
You lost some for just being a one trick pony harping about elitism. that by the way ... based on your many posts ... is hypocritical considering you somehow feel you are superior to the grey beards just because you are newer to the hobby than they.
You lost some when you decided it was impossible for me to possibly have the skills or knowledge to have created house rules that replicate the 3.x system because I am too hidebound to think like that.
(news flash: My GMs Bible [see my introduction thread for a definition of that term since I am sure you have no idea what that archaic term means] that was 10 times the size of the original D&D core was very similar to 3.x)
You lost the rest when you decided to lump me in with the grey beards that think "all new players are MMORPG newbs who know nothing about "real" role-playing" crowd.
At this point I have no respect for you or your childish attitude.
Grow up.
I keep seeing people claiming this, but have never actually seen any statistics to back it up. How true is it? Got any data?Seriously, there are vastly less people playing the hobby than there were in the 80's. Anyone supporting the hobby is good. It means better and more diverse products for everyone.
Check out this thread.
A couple posts down from mine James Jacobs confirms what I said.
And add me to the Pete Townshend, who? listAnd statements like this are sublime in their irony.
Right?!
Unrelated,but I was at work and "My Generation" came on the radio. I looked at this guy I work with(who is a serious rock history buff)and said "Who did this song?" "The Who" he replied."That's what I just said"
That's interesting considering a lot of players in this thread and on these boards have rejected 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons.I don't much care if they "respect" the game, whatever that means. We can try to freeze the game in carbonite, but then in 10 years we'll just be complaining about the disappearance of RPGs altogether. RPGs, like all media, adapt over time. People who complain that new == inferior tend to be made fools by history.
And a lot of players playing 4th Edition like it.
I'm sure there are people still playing AD&D somewhere, that doesn't mean time hasn't marched on. Pathfinder is a branch from 3.5 and 4e is an evolution. If no one had decided to take up the mantle, 3.5 would have eventually faded to the point of a minuscule percentage of the gaming world. But Pathfinder isn't 3.5. And the more books that come out, the more it won't be.
I play 4th edition and I don't like it, but that is what most people are playing today. I just hope the carbonite freeze holds till I can find a decent Pathfinder group to play with.
I keep seeing people claiming this, but have never actually seen any statistics to back it up. How true is it? Got any data?Seriously, there are vastly less people playing the hobby than there were in the 80's. Anyone supporting the hobby is good. It means better and more diverse products for everyone.
Check out this thread.
A couple posts down from mine James Jacobs confirms what I said.
D&D was bigger. The hoby is no longer just D&D. Maybe 1/10th of the roleplayers I know own a copy of the core books from 3.0, 3.5, 4E or pathfinder. Not all play D&D, and those that do can get the information they need for free from a friend. Not every D&D GM I know owns a copy of a core rulebook.
I still don't know what video game 4e is supposed to be like.
I find the old-timers (that's me) vs newbies argument to fail to hold water.
My first D&D campaign featured a dungeon full of green slime, gargoyles, and an ancient red dragon, as well as intelligent dragon slaying swords. We played at recess. Characters started at first level, and got to max level (3rd!) when they killed the dragon with the Deus Ex Machina Intelligent Dragon Slaying sword.
Throughout the years, we played hack-n-slash grind fests, monty haul dungeons, murder mysteries, horror campaigns, investigative games, PvP arena games, plane-hopping exploration games...
Today, I see new roleplayers playing the games, and some of them are CharOp-driven, some are story-driven. Some are overpowered monty haul, some are bare-bones. Some are both CharOp AND Story driven. Etc etc.
I don't think that how long you've been playing is worth much, historically, other than simply having more breadth of experience. I play WoW, and it's a fun game, but even if you equate WoW CharOp with D&D CharOp, they're not the same things.
This all boils down to BadWrongFun and You'reDoingItWrong. I say, find a group with sensibilities similar to yours and play fun games. There is no BadWrongFun, just fun, and there is no You'reDoingItWrong, there's just doing it differently.
There are fundamentalists on all sides of this debate.
I have the 4e core books,am not a savant on the rules therein. Didn't like the "revamped" (and utterly destroyed) alignment system,among other thing. People say it plays like WoW,idk cuz i've never played that either.
I have the 4e core books,am not a savant on the rules therein. Didn't like the "revamped" (and utterly destroyed) alignment system,among other thing. People say it plays like WoW,idk cuz i've never played that either.
I've heard the "4e is more like an MMO!" argument so many times, it's not even funny.
There's was a kid in Kansas who had BadWrongFun. There is still a place that feels cold when you walk through it and no one will buy the house because they say it is haunted with the very BadWrongFun he had.
It's true. It is on the internet.
Your earlier posts do you little credit.
I looked over 4e and was suitably unimpressed. It read and felt too much like a Vid Game for my taste. It is a good system but IMO is most defiantly not D&D regardless of what the name on the cover says.
I said quite clearly that it did not suit my taste. And why I felt that way.
I cast no aspersions of any persons who enjoyed that edition.I also said IN MY OPINION it is not D&D even though it is a good system.
That you take that as a statement of attack on new players does you less credit than it does me.
I've been playing 4th edition for the past several months and the level of abstraction in the rules makes it feel like a video game, and in the end it is much more like a board game.
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Marshall Jansen wrote: Good stuff
I only interject when people are being jerks and trying to crap on other players. That being said I have heard some pretty bad horror stories on this website like character sex crimes and one guys gm deciding that tavern customers were going to drag him outside and let a horse rape him.
What the crap?!
It really comes down to maturity. I have in my earlier gaming days been known to exact revenge on problem gamers that crapped on my games by wrecking theirs. All though, I still will not apologize for the goblin boy band party that showed a certain problem player the error of his ways when he wrote an "epic" game for us to play.
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I have the 4e core books,am not a savant on the rules therein. Didn't like the "revamped" (and utterly destroyed) alignment system,among other thing. People say it plays like WoW,idk cuz i've never played that either.I've heard the "4e is more like an MMO!" argument so many times, it's not even funny.
For me, my moment of "Jesus guys... we're playing an MMO" occurred when a group of us were sitting around the table and we were in a fight. Someone asked someone else to use one of their daily powers, but referred to it as their "2-hour" (as in 2 hour cooldown from MMOs). We laughed, and then I looked around the table. Each of us had a macro bar underneath our charactersheet, full of powers that were all on timers. I said "Jesus, we really *are* playing an MMO", and that's where that trope came from, for me at lest
There's was a kid in Kansas who had BadWrongFun. There is still a place that feels cold when you walk through it and no one will buy the house because they say it is haunted with the very BadWrongFun he had.
It's true. It is on the internet.
Elaborate,please.
Elaborate,please.
There existed a young human between the ages of 5 and 13 who lived in the state identified as Kansas who participated in BadWrongFun. There remains an unexplained phenomenon involving temperature within the locale where the aforementioned BadWrongFun occurred and the owner of the residence is unable to liquefy this asset due to the belief that said residence is inhabited by the BadWrongFun.
The veracity of this story is confirmed by its existence on a global system of interconnected computer networks.
You miss my point. In that post you displayed the very things Cartigan complained about. Nowhere in my post did I claim it was an attack.
That you take that as a statement of attack on new players does you less credit than it does me.
No where in that post (the part you quoted or any of the rest) did I accuse new gamers of ruining the hobby or being "wow" heads.
I stated that the edition did not suit me. And why.where in all of that did I once attack new gamers?
I did say I had bad experiences with both GMs and players while first testing the waters of 3.X; but I do not believe I ever once stated their length of time in the hobby or their ages for that matter.
Looks to me as if someone is jumping to conclusions, and seeing things that are just not there.
Elaborate,please.There existed a young human between the ages of 5 and 13 who lived in the state identified as Kansas who participated in BadWrongFun. There remains an unexplained phenomenon involving temperature within the locale where the aforementioned BadWrongFun occurred and the owner of the residence is unable to liquefy this asset due to the belief that said residence is inhabited by the BadWrongFun.
The veracity of this story is confirmed by its existence on a global system of interconnected computer networks.
If I had an unhealthy interest in occult phenomena,what search term could I enter into the search engine known as Google to find knowledge of this event in the state known as Kansas? (Assuming that BadWrongFun yielded no results worth mentioning)
If I had an unhealthy interest in occult phenomena,what search term could I enter into the search engine known as Google to find knowledge of this event in the state known as Kansas? (Assuming that BadWrongFun yielded no results worth mentioning)
Before I answer that question, allow me to pose a couple to you. Are you in the possession of large sums of money? What are your feelings regarding investments made in swamplands?
A lot of logical ripostesWell put, and points taken. Also wanted to say that, yes, I understand it's a game, but some games need respect or they can kick you in the rear end. Chess, is one example. If you don't respect chess, you'll never be good at it. Could be true for other things, even other games.
I think we just use different words but mean the same. I'm not sure "respect" applies, but you do have to take chess seriously, get into it and not just fool around.
I totally agree with you here. I'm not talking about this kind, I'm talking about people who drop in and out when the whim seizes. People that live in the same town, and have very few responsibilities.
Ah, those people. I'll argue that again, this has nothing to do with lack of respect for a game. It has everything to do with lack of respect for your fellow human beings.
Its because while the game itself might just be a game in some ways, there is a social occasion behind it. Most people commit some of their spare time to this. Some people commit more than that: They commit considerable spare time to create adventures for the group to play, or money to buy pre-made adventurers.
But whether player or GM, everyone decent will commit himself to the game, the day and time it's played. They will not do anything else, they will not plan anything else.
And then there's a bunch of tossers who will call 30 minutes after the game was supposed to start and tell you they're not coming. They might make up some excuse, but you just know they "have better things to do", that the game is just a last resort (for when nothing more interesting seems to happen, or the weather's not fine enough for the beach or something).
Those a!!#+@*s will waste everyone's time. People have not made other plans, they might already have driven to the game site (which might be quite some distance away). Sure, sometimes you can play without those idiots. Sometimes you can just do something else.
But often enough, you'll have wasted time and money, said no to other things that have already started and you can't join.
So again, the dice and rulebooks couldn't care less if that happens, it's about people being frikking discourteous.
Nobody expects you to change your religion to "Pathfinder", to blow all your spare time into this, to postpone your wedding or ignore your dying father in the hospital. But not every week holds a dire emergency in store for you, and other than that there is usually no reason not to call way ahead and cancel so people can make other plans.
Because once you have said that you play, and agreed to the schedule, it's binding. If you don't want to play that often, say so. Maybe something can be arranged. But if not, then you don't play. You don't get to be one of the "core crew", the guys everyone depends on being there barring emergencies.
You get a vote in working out a schedule, so after you have agreed to it, you abide by it. You don't plan other things during game time. You don't spontaneously do something else. Because it's not just you.
And yes, I saw this personally, all too often.
If I had an unhealthy interest in occult phenomena,what search term could I enter into the search engine known as Google to find knowledge of this event in the state known as Kansas? (Assuming that BadWrongFun yielded no results worth mentioning)Before I answer that question, allow me to pose a couple to you. Are you in the possession of large sums of money? What are your feelings regarding investments made in swamplands?
I am not in possession of large sums of money. My feelings regarding investments made in swamplands are similar to my feelings regarding the believability of ghost stories on internet forums. Which is to say,I feel that I would have to verify the viability of said swamplands or the believability of said ghost stories before taking the word of,well,a self-described fool.
So there was no elitism in that post?
It was a simple introduction post.
the closest you get to "elitism" is the following...
These experiences colored my opinions of the system, the caliber and attitudes of new players, and the (at the time) questionable direction of the hobby in general to the point where I absolutely refused to entertain requests to GM or PC 3.X games of any stripe...
but you will note the use of past tense in this part. That means the past not the present.
My opinions have softened since then.(Time is funny that way.)
Which is to say,I feel that I would have to verify the viability of said swamplands or the believability of said ghost stories before taking the word of,well,a self-described fool.
Glad to know you have a healthy sense of skepticism.
So there was no elitism in that post?It was a simple introduction post.
the closest you get to "elitism" is the following...
These experiences colored my opinions of the system, the caliber and attitudes of new players, and the (at the time) questionable direction of the hobby in general to the point where I absolutely refused to entertain requests to GM or PC 3.X games of any stripe...but you will note the use of past tense in this part. That means the past not the present.
My opinions have softened since then.
(Time is funny that way.)
Using the past tense does not imply you didn't like them in the past and you got over it, it implies you informed the opinion prior and hold it now.
Which is to say,I feel that I would have to verify the viability of said swamplands or the believability of said ghost stories before taking the word of,well,a self-described fool.Glad to know you have a healthy sense of skepticism.
Glad to know you have a healthy sense of humor.
You are confusing respect for the hobby with interest in the history/minutiae of the hobby. For instance, someone can respect comic books without knowing (or caring) about the (many) versions of Batman
You mean Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney, Bates, right?
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So there was no elitism in that post?It was a simple introduction post.
the closest you get to "elitism" is the following...
No, the closest I got was 'but IMO is most defiantly not D&D regardless of what the name on the cover says' which suggests that you know what is and is not D&D. As if something titled D&D could NOT be D&D.
God this is one horribad thread.
Can a mod go ahead and nuke it from orbit?
I remember once reading about a man complaining about his children. According to him, they were disrespectful, lazy, indolent, and irreverent. They spent all night getting drunk and listening to wild music. Their lack of work ethic and moral fiber was going to cause the end of civilization.It was from 200 bc in ancient greece.
People tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses.
Or through a decades-long drunken, stoned haze. They just don't remember being just the same because all those substances have fried their brains! ;-)
Glad to know you have a healthy sense of humor.Which is to say,I feel that I would have to verify the viability of said swamplands or the believability of said ghost stories before taking the word of,well,a self-described fool.Glad to know you have a healthy sense of skepticism.
He was just referencing the famous quote from Leonardo DaVinci: "I cannot believe the drivel that is posted on the internet every day. People will believe it just because it's on the net. They should employ a bit of common sense." And when the inventor of the tank and the airplane says something like this, you better write things down!
No, the closest I got was 'but IMO is most defiantly not D&D regardless of what the name on the cover says' which suggests that you know what is and is not D&D. As if something titled D&D could NOT be D&D.So there was no elitism in that post?It was a simple introduction post.
the closest you get to "elitism" is the following...
And Opinion is just that Opinion not fact. That is why I used that qualifier In My Opinion.
Not once in that statement did I impugn the ability, quality, or attitude of 4e players.
Do not try to twist my words to suit you.
I type what I mean and mean what I type.
Nothing more, Nothing less.
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He was just referencing the famous quote from Leonardo DaVinci: "I cannot believe the drivel that is posted on the internet every day. People will believe it just because it's on the net. They should employ a bit of common sense." And when the inventor of the tank and the airplane says something like this, you better write things down!
Wait a minute...
I thought DaVinci never patented the tank?
He was just referencing the famous quote from Leonardo DaVinci: "I cannot believe the drivel that is posted on the internet every day. People will believe it just because it's on the net. They should employ a bit of common sense." And when the inventor of the tank and the airplane says something like this, you better write things down!Glad to know you have a healthy sense of humor.Which is to say,I feel that I would have to verify the viability of said swamplands or the believability of said ghost stories before taking the word of,well,a self-described fool.Glad to know you have a healthy sense of skepticism.
Yeah you should check out Leo's website for SDS.
No, the closest I got was 'but IMO is most defiantly not D&D regardless of what the name on the cover says' which suggests that you know what is and is not D&D. As if something titled D&D could NOT be D&D.So there was no elitism in that post?It was a simple introduction post.
the closest you get to "elitism" is the following...
And Opinion is just that Opinion not fact. That is why I used that qualifier In My Opinion.
Not once in that statement did I impugn the ability, quality, or attitude of 4e players.
Do not try to twist my words to suit you.
I type what I mean and mean what I type.
Nothing more, Nothing less.
That line is still extremely arrogant and elitist. He isn't reading anything into it that is not there. The fact that multiple people don't read the line the same way as you should say something.
I think a lot of people read this the wrong way, and in hindsight I can see why: poor wording. What I should have said was: I think one of the reasons that you see elitism in older players is they've been immersed in the pen and paper world for the past twenty or so years, and therefore have a much more in depth knowledge of the game both in front of and behind "the curtain." When I said "due to" I didn't mean, you owe us/them elitism. I meant, "it is due to the fact that..." Like I said, poor wording.All I've seen from the gray haired gamers is the assertion that they know the game backwards and forwards, not because they do but because they have been playing it so long thus they are inherently knowledgable about everything ever and they should be listened (and catered to) by all the young disrespectful whipper snappers who play this "wow" thing.
One of the reasons you see elitism in older players is because they are older players. "Oh look, we have been in the hobby forever, let's look down our nose at new people interested in this new fangled version and complain about them being video game kids whether they are or not."
Just because you played AD&D back in high school doesn't make you the god of 3rd edition or Pathfinder some 30 years later. It just means you get to learn a new system like everyone else. You can save the waxing nostalgic for other gray haired gamers instead of using it to look down on people just joining the hobby either tabula rasa or from mmorpgs.
I was not going comment in this thread at all; but you just had to play the "you are old and this a new version of the game so you know nothing" attitude.
Want to know why we "old timers" have such negative attitudes towards younger/newer players like you? That attitude right there.My 37 years of experience as a hobbyist, My 31 year membership in the RPGA (as a GM), my long conversations with Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson, Monte Cook, Kevin Sembieda, Erick Wujick, Bill Coffin, Bill...
I'm going back to read it all, but just so you know, I love you, in a non gay way :)
That some feel my opinion about 4e makes me elitist speaks volumes about their maturity.
Yes, your opinion that 4e isn't real D&D makes you elitist.
And add me to the Pete Townshend, who? listAnd statements like this are sublime in their irony.
Wasn't Pete Townsend busted for child pornography? Apparently, his generation wasn't the only thing he was concerned about.
(Apparently, he was cleared of charges because he was just "conducting research... or for being a rockstar).
Back to the original topic: I can't take gamers who ask for respect for experience in their hobby seriously. I've been gaming for 20 years, and you know what? It's just a game most of the time.
While it may be true that for some brief shining moments a game in a microcosm might wax religious in experience or meaningful in it's intensity or depth; that certainly isn't the baseline.
C'mon guys. It's just DnD. If people were playing this for money, for competition (implying that you could win), or for anything more than just a good time MAYBE you could make an argument about a right way to play, or knowledge demanding respect... but it isn't, and you can't.
-Idle
Yes, your opinion that 4e isn't real D&D makes you elitist.
That some feel my opinion about 4e makes me elitist speaks volumes about their maturity.
Case in point.
I have no idea who Pete Townshend is and imagine I don't care.
Ahh, the generation gap.
Blather about 'old guys' nostalgia.And you are welcome to do it. As long as you don't use your nostalgia to look down your nose at other players. "Back in my day, we didn't have movement speeds, we had to describe to our DM the exact methodology we used for moving and we only got to move as far as we could describe the proper method for moving. And if we did it wrong, we fell prone. You whipper snappers got it easy with your automatic movement speeds and 5ft steps."
This is actually pretty good. Humorous. A good facsimile of what us old guys sound like. Hell, I post stuff like that because I think it sounds funny coming from me.
For now, you can scream obnoxiously while you hide behind a mask, or you can engage on a more meaningful level.What meaningful level? There was nothing given, to paraphrase, but "I've been playing this game for many a winter and I don't like all these new players who (I am going to insinuate without proof to be derogatory) came from MMORPGs and don't play the game the good old fashioned way are dumbing down my great game."
But simple nay-saying and snark won't advance the conversation. You post a lot one-liners that aren't jokes, they are mere contradiction often with a side-helping of scorn. When you take the time and put in the effort, you have said some good things that have made me think. And humor, as used by you above, can help ease things along. (Unfortunately humor often miscarries over the internet.)
Back to 'RP elitism', I submit that it is no more harmful than 'power-gamer elitism '. Both tend to divide the gaming community.