racial archetype qualifying...

[The Thing from Beyond the Edge]

I am hoping to be wrong on this but don't think I am. So, I am looking for the specific defining words or a trick to accomplish it.

Can a character (human, half-elf, half-orc) take racial heritage as their first level feat to qualify and take their first character level in a racial archetype of a class?

If so, how. Or, is there not something stopping this?

Note: I have seen such wording regarding feats and quals for prestige class qualification but I have not seen it specifically for base class qualification...

[Xaratherus]

Yes they can. It was FAQ'ed to allow it.

[edit]
Actually, let me hedge that a bit:

You are required to choose an archetype when you take your first level in a class. By RAW, you choose your class before you choose your feats, and so you'd technically make your class choice before you could take the feat and thereby choose an archetype.

I do not think it's intended to function that way. It would mean that a human would have to re-train or cross-class in order to make use of the feat clarified by the FAQ, and I don't believe that's how it was intended to function.

[Lifat]

Xaratherus wrote:

Yes they can. It was FAQ'ed to allow it.

[edit]
Actually, let me hedge that a bit:

You are required to choose an archetype when you take your first level in a class. By RAW, you choose your class before you choose your feats, and so you'd technically make your class choice before you could take the feat and thereby choose an archetype.

I do not think it's intended to function that way. It would mean that a human would have to re-train or cross-class in order to make use of the feat clarified by the FAQ, and I don't believe that's how it was intended to function.

Interesting thoughts Xaratherus. I agree with you on this... But I would not scoff at people requiring you to postpone taking the archetype for a later level.

[The Thing from Beyond the Edge]

Thanks for telling me what I already know. :D j/k

Technically, IMO, any downtime required to be spent before the character ever plays can be rationalized along with all the other downtime to his life before he started playing and leads to his current financial status (starting gold) since he was never in a game situation to take advantage of and use the other abilities. Basically, a "sure, it's first level go ahead" would be needed from the DM though.

But, unless someone comes up with something better, I might need to go a slightly different route.

[Xaratherus]

I would FAQ this, but the last time I FAQ'ed something like this, I sorta got brought up. >,<

There is an alternative, but it's iffy: When you choose your race, choosing your racial features is part of that. Since the bonus feat granted to humans is a racial feature, you would arguably be allowed to use that to pick Racial Heritage before you chose your class.

Half-elves and half-orcs would have to go the re-training\cross-class route to make use of it, though.

[blackbloodtroll]

I am not sure why one would think they would not be applied simultaneously, when creating a 1st level PC.

One does not spend time with a level in a class, before having the feats gained at that same level.

This should work.

Think about the PC before adulthood.

You would use the Young Characters rules, and could have the Racial Heritage feat.

Then, when you reached adulthood, and replaced your NPC class level, you could choose a racial archetype, as you already have the feat needed to do so.

[Xaratherus]

The RAW for creating a character does not take into account the Young Characters rules or having NPC classes before having PC classes. What you are suggesting is sensible (and is exactly why I allow Racial Heritage to function for starting characters) but it's not RAW.

[Bizbag]

I couldn't find exactly where it's indicated, but you can take feats like Mounted Combat at the same level you take your first rank of Ride, so you can certainly take things simultaneously- as long as you don't accidentally create a causality loop.

Think of it this way: you can take them at the same Level, but they have to be "applied" consecutively. You can take level 4 of Fighter, take a rank of Ride, and then take Mounted Combat. Or, take level 5 of Wizard, take the Fly spell, then take ranks in Fly skill.

So you can't take first level of Assassin at level 5, because your 5th rank in Stealth would come from Assassin itself, which you don't qualify for. You MIGHT be able to simultaneously take feats, though- a level 8 wizard who takes his third Metamagic feat at 9 can probably take Loremaster, since the source of the feat wasn't the PrC itself.

[Xaratherus]

@Bizbag: I don't believe your latter paragraph is true at all. All the FAQs and designer comments I have read have stated that before you take your first level in a PrC, you must meet all the requirements not using anything you gained at that level.

I did some reading on topics related to this awhile back. During the Pathfinder playtest there was a lot of discussion on the order of character creation, and whether it mattered, and the designer input was that yes, it did matter, and that you really did have to create and level your characters in the exact order noted in the Getting Started section. I'll see if I can dig those quotes up again.

Regarding Mounted Combat - the reason that works is because of the 'order of operations' during character advancement:

Classes - Character Advancement wrote:

When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.

So while there is an order of operations, you choose skills and feats simultaneously, meaning you can meet the skill requirement for Mounted Combat at the same level you take the feat. But if you were trying to take a class that had a feat dependency, you could not take that class if you did not already have the feat because you select feats after class.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, if the racial archetype does not alter any class feature gained at first level, then you can choose to be in the racial archetype upon taking your second level.

So, even by the strict restrictions suggested, a PC can take a racial archetype, as long as he has the feat prior to gaining any class feature altered/replaced by the archetype.

[Bizbag]

Quote:

So while there is an order of operations, you choose skills and feats simultaneously, meaning you can meet the skill requirement for Mounted Combat at the same level you take the feat. But if you were trying to take a class that had a feat dependency, you could not take that class if you did not already have the feat because you select feats after class.

You're correct, of course, but the reason I said it might work is because the idea of the ruling on PrCs is to avoid a causality loop where the PrC qualifies you for the PrC. Your skill ranks are always from your class, but feats aren't, so it might be acceptable, if not strictly legal. I wouldn't let a player get into a PrC earlier than minimum with it, but a fighter3/wiz5 wanted to take Loremaster at level 9 an needed the feat, it's probably OK.

[Xaratherus]

Just to give my own opinion: All of the RAW in this case runs contrary to how I'd probably run it at my table. I don't have an issue with allowing someone to take Racial Heritage, and under certain (story-related) circumstances I'd even fudge the rules to allow early entry into a PrC.

[The Thing from Beyond the Edge]

Thanks for all the input, guys.
I agree with most.

To be more specific I was hoping to make a character for a Wrath of the Righteous game that would have the universal monster ability "see in darkness" and would be a ranger modeled after Nodens from the Cthulhu Mythos and Boom! Studios.

Plus, I prefer making half-orc characters and was thus trying to make it work for one.

So, the intent was to try and take racial heritage (fetchling) and then at first level take the dusk stalker archetype for ranger. Class skills are changed with the archetype, so I don't think I could wait til second to adopt the archetype without penalty. Then, at 12th level I would have see in darkness. I didn't want to take a level in a different class at first then wait until my 13th character level to get the ability.

By taking racial heritage (tiefling) and spending two feats in order to buy fiend sight twice I can still get see in darkness but I was hoping to avoid spending three total feats (racial heritage once and fiend sight twice) to get it.
Note: There is a "touched by awfulness" WotR campaign trait where one was put in a coma by a demon attack and intrinsically changed by it. I was going to use that as fluff justification for the heritage feat.

Are there any other ideas out there for gaining the ability I am missing?

[Kazaan]

You can only take racial heritage for Humanoid races. Both Fetchling and Tiefling are Outsider(Native) so neither qualifies without GM fiat.

[The Thing from Beyond the Edge]

Kazaan wrote:

You can only take racial heritage for Humanoid races. Both Fetchling and Tiefling are Outsider(Native) so neither qualifies without GM fiat.

I now hate you for bursting my bubble. :D

You are correct and I am now happy I can fix that before wasting my time with it.

*tips hat*