Determining subtier

[JohnF]

I just encountered an odd situation when pre-mustering for tonight's game.

We're playing a Season 1 scenario. I initially had 4 players scheduled; two level 5 characters, 1 level 6, and one level 7. That gives an APL of 5.75, rounding to 6, so that would mean playing the high subtier.

Then a 5th person signed up with a 3rd-level character. That made the APL 5.2, rounding to 5. With only 5 characters, and an APL between tiers, the rules say we must play the low subtier.

In other words, adding an extra character to the party not only added to the total strength of the party, it also reduced the difficulty of the challenge to be faced in the scenario!

(Even if the new character had been 4th level that would only have raised the APL to 5.4, which still rounds to 5).

This just seems wrong to me. If four characters can handle subtier 6-7 on their own, then they certainly ought to be able to handle it with another character along to help them out!

I'd suggest things would be improved by calculating the APL by only taking into account the highest-level characters, basing the calculations on at most the number of characters that were assumed when the scenario was designed (i.e. 4 for seasons 0-3, 6 for season 4 or later)

[Nathan Hartshorn]

I'm not sure that would work. It could lead to awkward situations where someone is waaaaaaaaay underleveled and is doing all that they can to avoid dying. Could you give an example of how the system you propose would work so I can get a better idea?

~NPEH

[kinevon]

John,

Not sure that 3rd level PC is going to do much to make the scenario easier, and he would be at serious risk in the higher sub-tier.

Spoiler:

For example: The Dalsine Affair: In 6-7, Chalfon opens the dance with an empowered CL9 fireball, DC 18, to open combat. Average damage for that would be 9*3.5*1.5=31.5*1.5=47.25, or 47 points of damage. If the third level doesn't have Evasion, or doesn't make the save with Evasion, he'll take 23 points of damage, on average. If he fails the save, and doesn't have Evasion, that would be 47 points of damage.

Let's consider the 3rd PC is a Fighter-type, Con 14, FCB t0 hit points, giving: 10+2+1+(6+2+1)*2=31 hit points, maybe 34 with Toughness. On a save, that is about 2/3rds damaged, failed save, and he needs to make a Stabilization check (if he had Toughness, dead without) of DC 10+2-13=21 or die on his next turn.

And that is a fairly optimized Fighter-type, with d10s and not going for extra skill points. For d6 or d6 classes, they are probably dying on a successful save...

Now, in sub-tier 3-4, Chalfon is probably going to clothesline someone in the surprise round with either a Frigid Touch through his rapier, or an empowered Shocking Grasp through his rapier. The Frigid Touch is "kinder", since it probably won't kill someone outright, just leave him staggered for either the next round, or for 10 rounds in case the attack was a critical.

Heh. You know the good news about Chalfon in Sub-tier 3-4? He didn't make his rapier +2 keen instead of just taking it to +3. He could have, which would make his nova even uglier. 18-20 is bad enough that it is a major contributor to the Dalsine death toll thread. 15-20 would have been even worse, making that surprise round a threat 30% of hits instead of just 15% of hits. Flatfooted, if he can hit at all, means that a surprise round threat is probably going to confirm...

Or, to put it another way, of it is one of the earlier season 3-7s that are not just a cakewalk the whole way through, that play down thing may make the difference for that 3rd level PC of living or dying.

Note that even some cakewalk scenarios have an encounter that moves form interesting to ugly in sub-tier 6-7.

Spoiler:

Second example: In Voice in the Void, season 1, there is an encounter in sub-tier 6-7 that has an attack that is +22 to hit, for 2d8+26 damage. Except in very unusual cases, that means a 2 will hit most PCs' AC at that level, much less that 3rd level PC. Then an average of 35 damage, no save for half, and even that Fighter is down in one hit, with a d6 class probably outright dead from it. That is discounting the chance of a crit, or max damage.

And, since that same creature has 81 hit points, and is immune to a lot of status effects, with a 20' reach, it is almost guaranteed to get that first attack. If your group has a high Initiative big damage dealer, you might get by, but that 3rd level would have the potential for being dead if the timing and positioning is wrong.

No, the APL rules for sub-tier chosen take into account things like what I mention in my spoiler, and strive to make the game enjoyable for everyone, not just the 7th level PC with insane saves.

[Robert A Matthews]

In situations like that, it helps to have another character to play, if not a pregen is always an option. I have switched characters at the table on occasion but usually the games I have played in have you sign up which character you intend to play so subtiers can be worked out in advance.

[Relixander]

There will always be mathematical anomalies when dealing with averages. Sometimes the group has to decide how to change to make things "fair" or challenging. It works both ways, I have seen a group forced to play up because one player would not switch characters, death and failure resulted . So there are corner cases in both directions.