Sorry for not sifting though the entire thread. What are the tips given for sneak attacking at a range?
Sniper goggles, dazzling display + shatter defenses (which is good for any sneak attack vs. creatures not immune to fear), snap shot, improved snap shot so you can flank at 15 feet, opportunist can help set up for a full round of sneak attacks if creatures are shaken, headband of Ninjitsu to ensure you can sneak attack creatures with concealment, seeking bow enchantment to avoid miss chance. Eventually look at getting a silver spindle Ioun stone for divine favor and add +3 to hit/damage on all attacks. Unwitting ally will help you set up flanks against multiple enemies. Snap shot rogue talent will ensure you go first in the surprise round. Hellcat pounce + surprise attacks talent will give you 2 attacks in the surprise round if you hit with the first and the creature remains flat footed. Initiative is always a rogues best friend as creatures are flat footed until they act in combat. Sneaking precision and critical feats will allow you to apply a critical feat like blinding critical on your second sneak attack which makes a creature lose its dex to AC if it fails the save and allows all attacks as a sneak attack. A cruel bow when coupled with shaken condition now adds sickened and a cumulative -4 on saving throws that increase the effectiveness of critical feats.
Avoid deadly aim as you need the higher to hit for your iterative attacks and your damage should be coming from sneak attack. Since you'll be shooting fairly weak arrows that rely on sneak for damage many shot is also not useful to a rogue since sneak isn't added to both arrows.
If you want a single attack option you can grab deadly aim/many shot, max stealth as best as you can and try sniping. With the sniper goggles you can sit at the max range of your bow and shoot creatures if you can see that far under lighting conditions.
A true Rogue makes others work for him.
Yeah, I'd say this is the easiest way to make Rogues work - if a campaign is more focused on story and political intrigue rather than battles. It's just that focusing on combat is much easier and I'm guessing more common (for the people posting on these forums, anyway), than creating campaigns that are heavily story and NPC interaction based. I'm talking about actual heavy roll play, like some sessions don't end up having a combat encounter.
I've also seen people have a lot of fun with Rogues when it's not their only character that they are playing. This seems to help a ton. The player doesn't care so much about immediate contribution and you start seeing sneakier behavior.
1)Did anybody in the 2100 posts happen to run comparisons vs other classes without the addition of external factors? ie feats gained due to level that everyone gets, bonuses from race and traits, and the like.
A base rogue can get weapon finesse, weapon focus, bonus combat feat, bonus any feat from its class alone that a bard isn't getting. Many of he advanced talents are great like opportunist, improved evasion, crippling strike, the bonus feat, unwitting ally. The rogue can also access ninja tricks to get improved unarmed strike, a style feat, deflect/snatch arrows without even looking at the Ki point tricks, although shadow clone is amazing if you want to spend the couple talents to get a Ki pool and shadow clone.
It seems a class would be balanced against other classes without these other interactions that could cause further discrepancy. Maybe it's not so much the classes as it is the feats that the classes can get that cause a class to be overpowered. I know bards get some ridiculous abilities like versatile performance and through masterpieces like pageant of the peacock for the cost of a single 2nd level spell known or a feat. Human bards get bonus spells known which basically makes this a freebie that grants one skill to be used for 15 different skills along with a bards internal mechanics they become the best skill monkey by a long shot even vs. a SAD wizard with max ranks in a knowledge. With versatile performance you can make that bluff check with a performance that also provides another skill like diplomacy or disguise on top of that.
2) What is everyone defining a rogue to be?
This one is key to knowing a baseline and seeing if the PF rogue fits it or if expectations can even be achieved. Maybe the problem is a relic of previous versions where the PF rogue has evolved into something different than people's expectations.
I see skill monkey a lot when it comes to rogue, but the only logic I see to that is the 8 skill ranks per level. If 8 skill points per level make a skill monkey then by definition and inherent nature a wizard is also a skill monkey as they'll easily get 8 skills per level due to a primary stat keyed to the stat giving more skill points. Most intelligence based casters will pull something close to this and again by definition be a skill monkey. If this is the case then the rogue is a skill monkey and only beaten by a bard who has a ridiculous amount of internal mechanics designed to make him so. Versatile performance, bardic knowledge, lore master, and pageant of the peacock ensure it cannot be caught. Compared with the other classes the rogue competes for the skill monkey spot.
I feel like giving the rogue 8 skills per level was only there to help reduce MAD by not needing intelligence. A rogue could dump intelligence to 7 and still get more skills than most every class. With 6 skills per level the rogue could invest in diplomacy, sense motive, perception, use magic device, bluff, and disable device allowing it to be the face and still use the skills that it's class is inherently better at than most other classes. ie. trap finding and trap manipulation.
The issue I take, is that the Rogue doesn't get features that allow it to use it's skills in interesting ways or useful ways. It's ability to use skills is no better than any other class, except in using many skills. Thus I feel it's fairly accurate to say that that was useful when everyone had almost no skills. The classic party of Wizard, Cleric, Fighter and Rogue has 14 skill points a level with the Rogue owning more than half of them. Mix it up a little. Sage Sorcerer, Oracle, Ranger and Bard has 16 points between them.
It doesn't help that the second party is also generally better at using their skills too.
As to the goal of the thread:
First the Goal
I'm going to make our goal here as clear as possible. We wish to make a rogue (PURE rogue) that can perform roguish functions while dealing enough damage in combat to be on par with his spell casting peers (bards, alchemists, etc). We do not want to surpass them as that may prove more difficult than its worth.
Dipping is allowed but only like one or two levels the overall strength of the build should be founded on the rogue not a level of fighter or gunslinger.
Although I don't agree that a single level should be able to trump the overall strength of a class, but this is the why of taking a dip. You are using a bonus gained from another class to inherently boost your main class.
The easiest abuse of this to make ANY class a skill monkey is a single level dip from bard to grant bardic knowledge, bardic performance, access to the bard spell list for wand use and 0 level spell use. This opens every class up to taking the pageant of the peacock masterpiece with a single feat cost.
I don't really agree that the rogue has been left behind as much as I believe the bard has been given too many tools to be abusive. A single level dip slows progression in a class, yes, but it gives far too much potential to any class for skills, skill related abilities, and magic item usage. With a 10 charisma you have 4 rounds of performance which is 4 10 minute intervals of pageant of the peacock. A feat can boost you to 10 rounds or 10 10 minute intervals. A second level dip and you can take versatile performance string to use for both diplomacy and bluff checks which now account for 15 skills including untrained knowledges. Even just the single level dip has trivialized every intelligence based skill.
Basically, the best skill monkey is bard1/any class X
I don't really agree that the rogue has been left behind as much as I believe the bard has been given too many tools to be abusive.
This does not account for the alchemist, ranger, inquisitor and soon the slayer and investigator.
This does not account for the alchemist, ranger, inquisitor and soon the slayer and investigator.
I don't really agree that the rogue has been left behind as much as I believe the bard has been given too many tools to be abusive.
And bard1/alchemist is better than any alchemist, bard1/ranger is better than any ranger, bard1/inquisitor is better than any inquisitor, and soon the bard1/slayer and bard1/investigator are going to be better than any slayer or investigator.
The bard1/rogue still trumps all of those base PURE classes above.
As it stands I don't agree that a class is defined as a skill monkey by skill points alone. Skill points let you diversify and do many things, but it doesn't mean you do those things better than anyone. Especially not knowledges as the classes you mentioned get bonuses to those. A rogue having skills IMO is an attempt to make the rogue less MAD.
If your definition is just someone with many skill points than the rogue does just as well as most the others you listed and there's no need to continue, but it seems they also have to do skills well or the comparison to other classes wouldn't be present. Under this premise the PF rogue is not a skill monkey because they have no inherent skill boosting abilities beyond disable device and perception related to finding traps.
As I posted above the problem may be that the PF rogue has evolved into something that no longer meets the expectation of players from previous editions.
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You need to review the multiclassing rules. Whenever a class ability refers to your level it means your level in that class. Everything a bard dip gives you quickly becomes obsolete since it doesn't scale. If you're an nth level alchemist your next alchemist level is always better than bard 1 and the disparity only grows as you have more alchemist levels under your belt. Bard gives a few quickly obsolete spells and performance that isn't...This does not account for the alchemist, ranger, inquisitor and soon the slayer and investigator.
I don't really agree that the rogue has been left behind as much as I believe the bard has been given too many tools to be abusive.And bard1/alchemist is better than any alchemist, bard1/ranger is better than any ranger, bard1/inquisitor is better than any inquisitor, and soon the bard1/slayer and bard1/investigator are going to be better than any slayer or investigator.
The bard1/rogue still trumps all of those base PURE classes above.
As it stands I don't agree that a class is defined as a skill monkey by skill points alone. Skill points let you diversify and do many things, but it doesn't mean you do those things better than anyone. Especially not knowledges as the classes you mentioned get bonuses to those. A rogue having skills IMO is an attempt to make the rogue less MAD.
If your definition is just someone with many skill points than the rogue does just as well as most the others you listed and there's no need to continue, but it seems they also have to do skills well or the comparison to other classes wouldn't be present. Under this premise the PF rogue is not a skill monkey because they have no inherent skill boosting abilities beyond disable device and perception related to finding traps.
As I posted above the problem may be that the PF rogue has evolved into something that no longer meets the expectation of players from previous editions.
You need to not make accusatory statements about peoples understanding of the rules. Also take a read at the applicable information given before stating your assumptions.
The bard dip gives you access to pageant of the peacock which let's you use a single skill in place of 15 different skills. A one level dip, 8 skill points, one feat or take a second feat to increase your usage by 6 rounds/60 minutes. The point isn't to use your bardic performance for anything other than the skills bonus.
A bard 1/ Fighter 9 can have +10 ranks +3 class skill(from bard), -2 from a dumped charisma, +5 competence item, +4 pageant of the peacock, and can easily spare another feat to skill focus bluff for another +6. That's a +26 bonus to bluff checks and the 14 different intelligence skill checks. Taking 10 for 15 different skills at a 36 roll is a good skill monkey. There's not a single knowledge check that 36 won't solve for CR appropriate encounters. The DC to know what 9th level spell was cast on a character is a 34 and this was managed with dumping charisma and 7 levels before the party wizard has access to those spells. It's as easy as taking a single level of bard at level 5 and putting your 6 skill points into the prerequisites along with 2 from your fighter levels from 1-4, spend your level 5 feat for this and laugh at your ridiculous skill utility as you bluff your way to intelligence.
There's traits that allow skills to use intelligence instead of its original stat. A feat to allow bluff instead of intimidate and with no size penalty as intimidate incurs. A single skill to rule them all.
Not worth it. Of those 15 skills more than half are very weak and none are particularly strong. You're giving up your top level abilities and a feat and taking a BAB penalty and basing things on your principal dump stat. For the alchemist and investigator you're moving skills from your primary stat to your principal dump stat.
I suppose if everyone else is running around with an int 7 cleric or fighter going for pageant with a dip might make sense, but unless you absolutely have to do everything outside of combat and don't have to do anything in combat it's not as good a deal as you think.
I just listed an example of a charisma dumped fighter that has a +26 in 15 skills and your response is if everyone dumps intelligence? What does this have to do with anything? How does this magically make you useless in combat?
More than half of the 15 are weak? 10 are knowledge checks, one is Spellcraft, another is only limited to the number of things you want to craft, and then we have linguistics, appraise, and bluff.
Losing +1 BAB is extremely trivial to every class. It's the difference of a single level for feat qualification. And the entire context of this is that a single level dip can make any class a skill monkey so I'm not sure what your point is.
For the alchemist or investigator you're moving 15 skills onto one skill check. Do those classes come with 15+ INT per level?
pageant of the peacock is one of those abilities that are so absurd I just do not care about them, I just pretend they do not exist. If the problem were that then I would say there was actually no problem at all.Unfortunately te bard still steals the rogue´s job without it.
Because the bard still has versatile performance and bardic knowledge. I've already stated this as well when I said a rogue isn't defined as a skill monkey under the expectations of most posters here. If getting 8 skills per level makes you a skill monkey then a wizard is inherently a skill monkey and is more useful than a bard just by having 9th level spell progression and being SAD.
With a truly "well constructed" party at the moment, there isn't particularly need for a Skill Monkey. Traps are (in published Adventure Paths) a lot less nasty than back in the day. With several different variations of the big four you can achieve the religion/planes/arcane/nature knowledges, a Stealth/Traps Scout, a "Face"-type and a Crafter.
Skills are useful, but they're half (or less than half) of the complete game. Being awesome at combat but sucking at eveything else is just as bad as the reverse. Ask your Int-dumping Fighter. Play the whole game.
ACG is out.
Do your worst.
ACG is out.
Do your worst.
There's really not much to work with, but I'll see what there can be done.
Haven't been in this thread for a minute, are you guys homebrewing things, or trying to make something work with existing materials?
Haven't been in this thread for a minute, are you guys homebrewing things, or trying to make something work with existing materials?
Existing materials.
The second option. The first is a nice thought exercise but doesn't help the player at the table who will find the most use of it.
Cutthroat Slayer or Bounty Hunter 2 level dip seems fruitful.
EDIT: 3 Level Dip in Snakebite Brawler is interesting for Snake Feint. Keeping in mind that these dips boost your BAB and general combat ability and durability.
Anyone consider a dip into Swashbuckler and slashing grace for some early DEX action?
Me thinks human would be desirable.
20 point buy:
10 18 14 10 10 14
1)Swashbuckler 1] Weapon Finesse*; Slashing Grace; Weapon Focus- Sawtooth Saber/Dueling Sword/ Longsword/ Scimitar
2)Swashbuckler 2] Charmed Life 3/day
3)Swashbuckler 3] Combat Expertise; Nimble +1; Deeds
4)Swashbuckler Rogue 1] Martial Training- meh, Sneak Attack 1d6
5)Swashbuckler Rogue 2] Two-Weapon Feint, Combat Trick- Two-Weapon Fighting, Evasion
6)Swashbuckler Rogue 3] Daring, Sneak Attack 2d6
7)Swashbuckler Rogue 4] Improved Feint; Combat Trick- Greater Feint, Uncanny Dodge
8)Swashbuckler Rogue 5] Sneak Attack 3d6
9)Swashbuckler Rogue 6] Combat Reflexes; Offensive Defense
10)Swashbuckler Rogue 7] Sneak Attack 4d6
11)Swashbuckler Rogue 8] Improved Initiative, Unarmed Combat Training
At this point the main combat strategy is to engage combat with TWF using a Feint in place of your primary attack (being an unarmed strike), then thanks to Greater Feint all of your following attacks can be sneak attacks. Slashing Grace let's you get DEX on damage, and the Swashbuckler's Finesse lets you use CHA to qualify for all those combat feats instead of INT allowing for less MAD.
Before you try to make a good, working Rogue, first you need to decide what makes Rogues unique, in which way you could build a Rogue that you couldn't build any other class.
In this aspect, I think the Shatter Defenses Thug build is the most you could look for.
Everything else looks better in other classes.
1)Swashbuckler 1] Weapon Finesse*; Slashing Grace; Weapon Focus- Sawtooth Saber/Dueling Sword/ Longsword/ Scimitar
2)Swashbuckler 2] Charmed Life 3/day
3)Swashbuckler 3] Combat Expertise; Nimble +1; Deeds
4)Swashbuckler Rogue 1] Martial Training- meh, Sneak Attack 1d6
5)Swashbuckler Rogue 2] Two-Weapon Feint, Combat Trick- Two-Weapon Fighting, Evasion
6)Swashbuckler Rogue 3] Daring, Sneak Attack 2d6
7)Swashbuckler Rogue 4] Improved Feint; Combat Trick- Greater Feint, Uncanny Dodge
8)Swashbuckler Rogue 5] Sneak Attack 3d6
9)Swashbuckler Rogue 6] Combat Reflexes; Offensive Defense
10)Swashbuckler Rogue 7] Sneak Attack 4d6
11)Swashbuckler Rogue 8] Improved Initiative, Unarmed Combat Training
Why are you going Swash Rogue? You can Ninja Trick into Combat Trick from Rogue to Ninja (but not the other way around).
EDIT: Also, you get another Rogue Talent at Rogue level 6.
I'm thinking that Pummelling Style and Pummelling Charge from a two-level MoMS dip could be promising for a Scout. (Either with a high-multiplier weapon, or, whatever the best punching weapon is if your GM wants to restrict you to weapons that you could plausibly "punch" with.) Charge Pounce for full-attack sneak attacks with a high probability of critting the non-SA damage every round.
I'm thinking that Pummelling Style and Pummelling Charge from a two-level MoMS dip could be promising for a Scout. (Either with a high-multiplier weapon, or, whatever the best punching weapon is if your GM wants to restrict you to weapons that you could plausibly "punch" with.) Charge Pounce for full-attack sneak attacks with a high probability of critting the non-SA damage every round.
This is better done with a Ninja than a Rogue.
pummeling style seems great, but then you realize you'll never get it in time (for a rogue) to be useful... (EDIT: unless you MoMS dip for them as noted above--at which point that means that every martial now has access to 'pounce vital strike plus-plus' at level TWO)
the 'sneaky' weapon enchant from the ACG looks helpful (1/day (free action): mark someone and get your SA on your next attack against them regardless of flanking/dex-deny status AND lets you use the hunter's surprise ability once more per day if you have it), and slashing grace (or the fixed 'fencing grace' posted on the boards by the design team) is great.
if you go the charismatic route the 'steadfast personality' feat seems like it would greatly help you not automatically die at/after 9th level.
You rely on your assuredness and sense of self to help keep your mind clear.
Benefit: You gain an insight bonus on Will saving throws against mind-affecting effects equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 0).
the 'twist away' feat also seems helpful to that end, but the staggered condition it imposes in exchange might get you killed anyway (edit: unless there's a way to become immune to the staggered condition).
if you go the intelligent route, the studied combatant and improved studied combatant feats all help your accuracy/damage problem, but comes in super late (bab 6 and 8, respectively, and requires 'amateur investigator' feat as a prereq).
it's a damn shame paizo didn't add a panache, brawler-feat-grabbing, or inspiration based rogue archetype, nor any way for the rogue to get any of the invesigator or slayer talents as far as i can see (short of taking levels in the classes who'se abilities you need which defeats the whole point)--any of these would have been incredibly helpful, but i've already come to expect this kind of disappointment with paizo.
I'm thinking that Pummelling Style and Pummelling Charge from a two-level MoMS dip could be promising for a Scout. (Either with a high-multiplier weapon, or, whatever the best punching weapon is if your GM wants to restrict you to weapons that you could plausibly "punch" with.) Charge Pounce for full-attack sneak attacks with a high probability of critting the non-SA damage every round.This is better done with a Ninja than a Rogue.
Scout's a valid archetype for either one, so use whichever you prefer.
Scout's a valid archetype for either one, so use whichever you prefer.I'm thinking that Pummelling Style and Pummelling Charge from a two-level MoMS dip could be promising for a Scout. (Either with a high-multiplier weapon, or, whatever the best punching weapon is if your GM wants to restrict you to weapons that you could plausibly "punch" with.) Charge Pounce for full-attack sneak attacks with a high probability of critting the non-SA damage every round.This is better done with a Ninja than a Rogue.
I am aware. But Ninja is the better choice.
If you want to make the Rogue work better as part of an adventuring group, I think the way to do it is solving the communication issues.
The reason that the rogue doesn't go scouting far ahead is it is boring for the group and no one knows when the rogue gets into trouble. For PFS, a magical item allowing Message cantrip for 750 gp (allowing PFS players to buy for 2 PP) would go a long way towards solving this. The rogue could then relay what they are seeing back to the group (rest of the players don't get bored) without giving themselves away.
The big part of this is two-way communications so that the rest of the players don't get bored.
The other thing you need to do is have hazards that allow skills to shine. Climb, swim, jump, sabotage enemy equipment before it is activated. Things that would make for a hard brute-force fight, but allows the rogue to make the fight much simpler.
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Tailoring the adventure to accommodate the person playing a very weak class to make them feel useful is not a good idea.
If they want to play the weakest class in the game for role playing reasons, cool, but be prepared to live with the consequences of being mechanically sub-par.
Yeah, lots of adventures are tailored for the weak classes.
The ones that can't swim to shore, climb the embankment without a rope, sneak up and scout out the sentries. No ability at all to remove any traps that might be in place.
Sounds way too much like things that special forces recon do.
Part of it is the rest of the group would find it a bit boring if they were just waiting for the recon people to clear the way for them. See several posts about the barbarian just opening the door rather than wait for the trap to be disarmed.
Mechanically sub-par does depend on environment and assumptions about the scenario.
Overall my largest problems with the rogue..
Talents that are mechanically fubared. Esoteric Scholar is one of these ones. And before you go on about "Its for a rogue who wants to ID things." A rogue like that with no int mod, could put one and 1/4th levels worth of his skill points into the knowledge skills, netting him the entire function of esoteric scholar with an additional +5% on any skill that isn't a class skill and +20% on skills that are.
The way that identifying monsters and such work, after a few levels, it would be impossible for a rogue that rolls even natural 20s each time to id them. And forget about identifying spells.
About the only reason I could even see anyone taking this talent, is that its a NPC, and the GM isn't sure he wants to reveal information or not, and has decided that he'd only give it to them on a less than 20% once per day.
There is several more than on the surface look good an interesting, until you get into the nitty gritty mechanics of it all.
No real 'unique' thing. This is more of an opionion rather than a mechanical thing. Practically every other class has unique things to them, even with the release of ACG, many still hole quite abit of unique stuff. Cept rogue. Now we've got Slayers and Investigators.
I think the biggest reason for this is that rogues have very little class abilites to start with, so even their archetypes just don't really feel unique enough. Like Archeologist has enough changed about him that he feels pretty unique amongst bards. Most rogue archetypes are just -slightly- better at one thing.
Course some of them are mechanically fubared as well, such as Snare Setter. The traps they can set can be easily disabled as the DC progresses slower than the skill to disarm them. Skills can progress at 1 for 1, while the trap progresses 1 dc for 2 points.
~Rogue talents suck
Agree totally. The talents could have been not only what powered the Rogue, but could have given personality, i.e. lots of choices, to the build options, too. You nailed a fundamental problem with their design that has never, and probably will never, be addressed by Paizo.
~Rogue talents suckAgree totally. The talents could have been not only what powered the Rogue, but could have given personality, i.e. lots of choices, to the build options, too. You nailed a fundamental problem with their design that has never, and probably will never, be addressed by Paizo.
I also agree that almost all of the talents are lackluster at best.
It is one of the reasons many would be best off going Rogue 2/Other N. It allows you pick up Trapfinding, Trap Spotter talent, and qualify you for picking up any other Rogue Talent that you really want via the Feat Extra Rogue Talent. Yes, you lose the Sneak Attack dice but you gain the powers of the other class -- either good BAB or good spell casting. If going for BAB then Rogue 4 can also make sense for some builds.
Although I like the concept of the rogue class a lot, I can't see sufficient reason to get 10 levels of it in order to qualify for the better talents. Better off picking up a different class and spending the skill ranks on Rogue skills.
Part of the reason this works is the simplification they did to the class skills. With it being a flat +3 bonus, one level is enough to get all the rogue skills marked as class skills even if you wait before putting your first rank into something. In AD&D 3.0 and 3.5 it was clunky, but you didn't want to go out of the class skills because a single rank cost too much.
I like the simplification and it makes things much easier, but it did devalue the rogue skill list.
~Rogue talents suckAgree totally. The talents could have been not only what powered the Rogue, but could have given personality, i.e. lots of choices, to the build options, too. You nailed a fundamental problem with their design that has never, and probably will never, be addressed by Paizo.
Worse still, they seem to constantly be giving them away, or designing ones that mathematically/mechanically do not work, or give very little bonus.
Our only hope really is that they eventually rewrite some of the lackluster/flawed ones in the main books and stop creating ones that keep giving rather non-heroric options. Its almost as if the rogue is the every man in so many cases. The class inbetween mundane NPC classes and mundane heroic classes.
~Rogue talents suck
Maybe, but Advanced Rogue Talents are amazing. If you've got two rogues in your party, nothing susceptible will be left standing after one or two rounds of the no-save-allowed Crippling Strike. And a rogue with an Improved Familiar is pretty awesome.
And a rogue with an Improved Familiar is pretty awesome.
It's a testament how little value Rogue Talents have when a Familiar is an advanced talent they gain at 10th and an Alchemist can get one at 2nd for the same price.
But alas, this isn't a thread to discuss stuff. Just to strut our building finesse and see what we can make with the Rogue.
LESS TALKING!
MOAR BUILDS!
I'm trying to push people towards this thread in an effort to get them to share what they deem amazing.
Not sure about the whole build (you'd need Quick Draw and some way to have that Morningstar concealed), but you'd deal sneak attack on each Morningstar you throw during the surprise round just because that enemy is flat-footed. Since Quick Draw gives you full iterative attacks for throwing Morningstars, and each Morningstar counts as a different weapon, I'd say you'd get two Underhanded attempts during that attack, because EACH Morningstar you throw is a huge surprise.
Also, you wouldn't be able to kill the Barbarian because of Uncanny Dodge.
AND STILL, this is less damage than a Barbarian or Druid can put out in a single Vital Strike.
Surprise maneuver feat might be a good feat to apply to a Dirty Trick build; maybe on a skulking slayer. Given the class bonus to Dirty Trick, you would be looking at +6 to +10 bonuses to dirty trick.
Let's see, on a slayer by the time you get greater dirty trick (level 9), you would be at:
6 bab + 4 (?) strength + 2 improved + 5 class + 5 feat + 1 weapon + 2 gloves = +25 dirty trick.
AND STILL, this is less damage than a Barbarian or Druid can put out in a single Vital Strike.
Really? But Vital Strike only lets the Barbarian add his strength once...
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Just an FYI: an upcoming book announced at Gen Con is going to offer a revised rogue.